Remove crouching until you can fix quick swapping.

🙄

I never (intentionally) quick swapped before the fix.

I've done a LOT of PvP through the years. It's most of what I do in this game. I can count on one finger the number of times I've lost a battle explicitly because of quick swapping (and ya know what, it was still an awesome battle).

Quick swapping really doesn't impact battle that much in the case of one double gunner versus another.

Is it cool that they outwardly call out what they do/don't consider an exploit and actively try to fix those things? Yeah.

Is this one that big of a deal? No. It's not.

This is not a big deal tbh.
We managed to live with it for years and now you live with it for a month at max.
Most players don't even have any problems with it.
Its only a few players that think they woulndt die as often without quickswap, while in reality the difference isnt big enough to make any difference, especially if youre enemy is better then you.
Ive never met a single person ingame that complained qs and ive played HG actively since it exists.
Just live with it.

Honestly I can understand wanting to remove crouching temporaily. However, I have a group of 24 active players and no one has played since the start because it feels like season 13 still. Just leave it in and fix later (Which I think they did)

I dont think it needs removed, just a focus on fixing the crouch swap after they finish their launch of the seasons mechanics.

It’s not like quick swapping will disappear after the update anyway. You think exploiters don’t already have 5 different ways to do it already up their sleeve and are practising as we speak?

@igreybeardi I agree with you, I literally just had an encounter last night with a cocky quick swaper. Didn’t even care that he was exploiting and the fact that Rare isn’t doing anything to crack down on these guys who have ruined the gaming experience for those of us who just don’t have the skill to pull off such maneuvers, especially on consoles is sickening.

@belphegor1384 You would have met the same fate regardless of the quickswap. You are gonna see everyone say "rare decides what exploits are exploits" and that also extends to how they punish exploits. Many players, including myself, will have fun with this quickswap till they remove it and once they do it will have no knock on effects, unlike the bb exploit which ruined player progression and the economy. Just let us have fun and enjoy crouching. Also you can quickswap on console.

@itzeggward so you are openly admitting to exploiting?

@belphegor1384 Exploits aren't inherently bad.

@itzeggward the only exploit that is “acceptable” by the community and the devs is sword dashing. If it’s an exploit that was not intended and is bad for the player base, then it’s a problem.

@belphegor1384 what's the difference between sword dashing and quickswapping outside of what rare deems they are ok with? I'm not arguing quickswapping should stay, I enjoy db gun either way but quickswapping shouldn't be considered any different from other unintended exploits in that it shouldn't be punished, just removed.

@itzeggward said in Remove crouching until you can fix quick swapping.:

@belphegor1384 You would have met the same fate regardless of the quickswap. You are gonna see everyone say "rare decides what exploits are exploits" and that also extends to how they punish exploits. Many players, including myself, will have fun with this quickswap till they remove it and once they do it will have no knock on effects, unlike the bb exploit which ruined player progression and the economy. Just let us have fun and enjoy crouching. Also you can quickswap on console.

You and people like you are toxic and a problem in the community.

@itzeggward exploits are inherently bad... from a definitional perspective they are cheating. The sword dash was a bug and the devs liked the added mobility it gave so it became a feature.

@itzeggward said in Remove crouching until you can fix quick swapping.:

@belphegor1384 what's the difference between sword dashing and quickswapping outside of what rare deems they are ok with? I'm not arguing quickswapping should stay, I enjoy db gun either way but quickswapping shouldn't be considered any different from other unintended exploits in that it shouldn't be punished, just removed.

Rather than retype what I said in the State of Play thread, I'll copy and paste what I said:

For those trying to conflate the sword lunge jump with quickswapping, there is a very clear and obvious distinction: sword lunge jumping isn't killing someone instantly. The blunderbuss was nerfed for that reason as well.

The sword lunge is mainly a movement boone and comes at the cost of being stuck in place if no enemy is hit. If you miss your shot while quickswapping, you can still continue to move and evade attacks. Sword lunging into the water is its biggest utility, but that (unlike quickswapping) is not cancelling anything intended by the game, such as animations. It takes advantage of how physics works and the preservation of momentum.

A lot of the arguments for quickswapping also seem to be contradictory - something cannot be both "high skilled" and yet "anyone can do it". These disingenuous points are incredibly transparent and telling.

On that note: Sea of Thieves does not have skill-based matchmaking nor does its session-based, drop-in-drop-out, design allow for it to account for different skill levels. I know "highly-skilled" players don't want to hear this but the skill ceiling should remain low for that reason.

Quickswapping is cheating. It's bypassing an intended mechanic of the game in order to gain an advantage over other players. Sword lunging is using the intended physics of the game in a way that wasn't initially anticipated. Now, you could argue that being able to grab something to cancel the lunge should be patched, that's a different argument (and only really viable in certain scenarios), but the lunge itself is no way comparable to quickswapping in terms of the advantage it gives.

@realstyli " It's bypassing an intended mechanic of the game in order to gain an advantage over other players. Sword lunging is using the intended physics of the game in a way that wasn't initially anticipated." Changing the tone and diction won't change the fact you just described the exact same thing with the only distinction being that you like one and don't like the other. Again, you play with semantics to dance around my point. I do not believe that quickswapping should remain in the game because I like it more when double gun is movement based, but the reality is that exploits are all the same, they are things you can do in the silly pirate game. No one should be shamed for using them, it is rare's job to patch them and we should have a discussion over the merits, not the morality of each mechanic.

@wolfmanbush 100%

It's the inconsistency of it that is the real issue here. They need to take a stance one way or the other with the exploits. Honestly, the quickswap is way more harmful to the casual community than the BB multi orb exploit from last season.

@itzeggward quickswapping should absolutely be shamed. If nothing else it artificially decreases TTK which breaks the intended game balance.

@realstyli said:

Quickswapping is cheating. It's bypassing an intended mechanic of the game in order to gain an advantage over other players. Sword lunging is using the intended physics of the game in a way that wasn't initially anticipated. Now, you could argue that being able to grab something to cancel the lunge should be patched, that's a different argument (and only really viable in certain scenarios), but the lunge itself is no way comparable to quickswapping in terms of the advantage it gives.

Quickswapping with guns is cheating*

Isn't it still possible to quickswap into sword spam? I haven't played in a while, but I remember this was (I'm assuming intentionally) left in for months after the patch that forced the animations to play out.

I think that's a more fair comparison than the grabbing-interactables-after-a-dash exploit.

Should sword quickswap be patched out? For sake of consistency, I'd argue yes. However, the sword is already incredibly unfun to use (imo) and this would make it clunkier. Which is why I was opposed to the second quickswap patch. Clunkiness.

The hard-coded delay between shots made sense (OG quickswap nerf). But after the animation-bypass patch, for whatever reason, it's now less efficient to sprint between shots than it is to walk between shots (instead of equally efficient). Sprinting may introduce some weird animation delays or bugs. Idk if that was programmed intentionally or not, but it made "run n gun" much less fun.

I'm not defending the new crouch quickswap btw. I agree with folks who say they should've just kept the crouch out of the game till all issues were resolved. And again, for consistency, now that Rare has taken a clearer stance against bypassing animations, I agree that players should be penalized for doing anything to achieve that.

At the same time, I do feel that the impact it has on a fight is significantly less than people make it out to be. Yes, it shaves some milliseconds of time, but you still have aim both of your shots. And that does take skill, unless your opponent just doesn't know to move, or is AFK, or something. Supplies exploits are probably more impactful.

I haven't tried the crouch version, but I do know it's as simple as the old one. Which is something I first learned to do on the old gen xbone, with a controller. Two button presses between shooting and aiming. Not some complicated Sparking Zero combo.

@captain-fob4141 Shaming people only pushes them away from having a dialogue, there arguments that could be formulative about issues like these, but because of forum users like you who treat exploits like sins and rare's word like gospel those arguments won't be had. The forums should be a place for interesting and civil dialogue but it has become an echo chamber, especially surrounding exploits like quickswap, which is a shame because rare decides which exploits stay and which go largely based on community input. I could easily argue the point about time to kill breaking the "intended game balance" but I instinctively feel less inclined because I know you are going to belittle me for it. Users like you are no different than the toxic pvp players who insult pve players for not being good enough, except you do it from atop a higher horse.

@captain-fob4141 They have taken a consistent stance, which is that they remove what they deem removeable and do not punish players for using it unless the exploit pertains to serious boosts to player progression (i.e, gold and reputation).

@itzeggward said in Remove crouching until you can fix quick swapping.:

@realstyli " It's bypassing an intended mechanic of the game in order to gain an advantage over other players. Sword lunging is using the intended physics of the game in a way that wasn't initially anticipated." Changing the tone and diction won't change the fact you just described the exact same thing with the only distinction being that you like one and don't like the other. Again, you play with semantics to dance around my point.

If english is not your first language, I could understand the confusion. But I did not say the exact same thing twice. But, then again, taking those two lines out of a much broader argument removes the context, so I guess I shouldn't expect a fair dialogue here.

@itzeggward no, we have consistently seen that a lax stance on those willing to cheat has driven out the primary audience for the game, namely causals who play once or twice a week and just want to relax.

While it's not just a pve game it's also not just a pvp game and rare has done a very poor job maintaining the balance between the extremes of the community. Over the years the voice comes have gotten more toxic and there are more and more new players driven away due to people willing to exploit in game mechanics to get ahead.

I get it, you want to play the game you want and you want to min max the capabilities of the game... the unfortunate casualty is the casual players.

Exploiting with friends because it's silly is one thing, exploiting to beat down new players who you would have beaten anyways is just disgusting and has no place on the seas. Yes it drives them away and kills dialog, but they don't belong in the game.

@itzeggward said in Remove crouching until you can fix quick swapping.:

@captain-fob4141 They have taken a consistent stance, which is that they remove what they deem removeable and do not punish players for using it unless the exploit pertains to serious boosts to player progression (i.e, gold and reputation).

Their lip service is consistent, their actions are not. Juggling and wall running were mentioned as exploits to be removed almost a year ago and we haven't seen any movement on either mechanic.

@itzeggward at this point, with how prevalent and known it is, everyone willing to quickswap should be permanently banned. Not because it's a horrible and terrible thing. Just the willingness to exploit the game to get an advantage over others needs to be shut down.

@realstyli "bypassing an intended mechanic" and "using the intended physics of the game in a way that wasn't initially anticipated" is the exact same thing. Adding "intended physics" does not change anything, if it did then crud launching would be ok. The only difference is what the community and rare agrees is for the benefit of the game. Again, I agree with you that quickswap is detrimental to the game's meta and should be removed, but people like to make distinctions between exploits they like and dislike and I think that dilutes the real argument about what is best for the game. I did not take these lines out of context, that sentiment that "one is morally worse and should be punishable because it is stronger than another" is what I am in contention with, not the "I believe they are the exact same and should both stay or go".

@itzeggward

Okay, explain to me exactly how the sword lunge is an exploit and giving players an advantage in combat?

Quickswapping guns is absolutely that. It's shortening the intended time between shots (animations) to allow the player to fire faster than intended and decrease the TTK.

@captain-fob4141 I am confident you ask anyone doing quickswap, they will tell you it is because it is fun. No one has malicious intent, they just want to enjoy the game and since it would be hard to enforce, break with tradition, and punish a lot of committed sot players for rare's problem, I just don't think it makes sense.

@realstyli it allows players more movement with sword dashes than intended? That's an advantage no matter how small. Again, I agree with you, this is the conversation we should be having, not what is or is not an exploit, but which is good for the game's health and which is bad. Exploits aren't a bad word, neither are "advantage over players". It should be about what's good for the game not buzz words.

@itzeggward right its not fun because it's silly it's fun because it let's you beat other players. You get to skeat shoot. It frankly is malicious and not realizing it is proof of the schism in the community.

Fun doesn't need to be zero sum. You can beat a player and both sides enjoy the fight. [It usually happens when the fight is fair and on equal footing]

@itzeggward said in Remove crouching until you can fix quick swapping.:

@realstyli it allows players more movement with sword dashes than intended? That's an advantage no matter how small. Again, I agree with you, this is the conversation we should be having, not what is or is not an exploit, but which is good for the game's health and which is bad. Exploits aren't a bad word, neither are "advantage over players". It should be about what's good for the game not buzz words.

Bad faith argument aside, I would be fine with the removal of the sword dash if it was the cost for removing and banning bad actors in the community.