Fix Red Sea exploit - move the loot back into the play area.

@urihamrayne said in Fix Red Sea exploit - teleport the loot back into the play area.:

@archangel-timmy

I have been very consistent in my posts, you are again warping my words to your whim which is what I complained when you quoted my line on loot which was in reference to the functionality of the wall, it doesn't have anything to do with loot in its purpose, but it is affecting it.

Looks like I got one of your posts crossed with another in regards to the mechanics, I will cede that and I apologize. I do stand by the rest in regards to this being solely about the access to free loot and not a legitimate exploit as it in no way benefits one party over the other. That is not apologistic trite, that is simple fact. If the chaser were to get the loot free and clear with no effort as you desire, then you are using the barrier to your benefit and the detriment of others, and an exploit is born. It is not the barriers job to do the work for you and trap players. As it stands, it is lose/lose, equal, not beneficial to anyone, and not an exploit.

There is no defense against this, there is no reason to defend this, this doesn't affect only the runners, it affects the entire environment of players that have each their different playstyles, there is no balance because there is very little counter play, this mechanic throws fair play out of the window.

This is not true. There are 12 pages of defense for it, as well as against it. You just don't agree with it because you want free loot.

Nothing about the barrier getting items permanently stuck is intended, it will never be for as long as I am here.

You don't know that, the only thing you have is your opinion based on other mechanics in the game. I can just as easily say it is (and I have), and provide the many examples I have provided to back that up. The only thing your presence does is keep your opinion out there for everyone to see, it has no bearing on whether this is working as intended or not.

@urihamrayne said in Fix Red Sea exploit - teleport the loot back into the play area.:

@archangel-timmy

I'm not parading an opinion here, I also don't want free loot, I want this exploit patched, and that is what I'm going to get.

Thank for the short reply, I was working on shortening things up here as well. These long back and forth comments are getting a bit out of hand...

I disagree, for the most part this is all opinion. Only people who know one way or the other have yet to comment (Rare). It is also your opinion that you are going to get your way.

To keep things simple for new readers, here are my point for keeping it as is with a small change that would work for all parties.

I don't feel this is an exploit because it doesn't benefit one player over the other, everyone loses and saves time from a pointless chase.

I am for current functionality because:

• Equal Loss: Runner and Chaser lose out on loot.
• Puts an end to hour long chases, which are ridiculous.
• Doesn't favor PVP over PVE
  I am against the proposed changes because:
• Favors PVP by giving them an advantage.
• Incentivizes long chases by taking choices away.
• Gives loot with little to no thought or effort.

Favorable Options:

• Make the Red Sea more hazardous to make it more difficult to get to the barrier. This will give the pursuer a chance to catch them and put actual work into getting the loot and give the runner a chance to escape one way or another.

The solution is to sink them before they make it to the red sea. If you can't do that just take the loss and move on. Other ships to plunder.

@urihamrayne said in Fix Red Sea exploit - teleport the loot back into the play area.:

Now I understand why you are against my proposal, because you have a warped view of what is actually going to be the impact of it. Nothing you mentioned is actually going to happen, players merely lose the ability to get items stuck beyond a barrier.

If anything is warped, it is your sense of entitlement. If a player makes it to that point, you failed as a pirate and shouldn't get to dictate what happens to that loot since it isn't in your possession. You didn't earn the loot, you are not losing anything and you deserve nothing.

By making your change you are giving players a tool to box in other players. You say nothing I mention will happen, but it already does. Players don't just run straight for the barrier, they are chased out there, and since you can't catch them you want to wait for them to disappear and collect free loot that was not earned as you were evaded. If you trap them at an island, that is one thing as they still have other options thanks to the environment. Cornering them with an invisible wall out in the middle of the ocean only benefits one side, the chaser.

The chaser is now using the barrier for their benefit to the detriment of others, a good example of exploitation... The barrier as it is gives nothing to either side, and takes equally from both. It is not advantageous to the runner, if the runner had any advantage it is directly related to your failures that allowed them to get out ahead of you.

@entspeak nope. If I can’t have the loot, you can’t either. So you can either get better or stop crying.

@urihamrayne said in Fix Red Sea exploit - teleport the loot back into the play area.:

I don't know if you noticed but the red sea is huge, you can box a person in smuggler's bay, but you can't box anyone in the red sea, there are no enviromental obstacles.

It is possible, even if you can't accomplish it. They can get pinned into a corner or get stuck going N/S or E/W while the chaser follows suit along side at a distance. You are creating an exploit by taking a choice a way and forcing another after you lost the initial encounter and allowed the chase to begin.

The chaser can hardly ever dictates the direction where the runner goes, most of the time the runner is the one in charge of his own escape route, so I have no idea where is this ad hoc excuse is coming from.

Whether the attacker has the element of surprise or not, they have the ability to plan their advance on the runner. Wind direction, obstacles, other ships in the area, etc.. These all give the attacker plenty of options to make their move against a boat that is usually parked off an island. If the attacker fails to predict the runner, out plan the runner, at any point let the runner have an advantageous lead, then the attacker has lost. Any chase is pointless and drawn out.

And even then, most of you claim that the runners are always winning, and "I" am always losing loot I don't deserve, so that implies that the implementation of this fix to the exploit is entirely harmless to the current environment, as runners are always defeating "people like me" since I am "coming here to cry about it".

The runners aren't winning, it is a stalemate in which the best course of action is to stop wasting time and break even. Nobody gets the loot. If they were clearly winning there wouldn't be a point in calling it a wash.

@urihamrayne said in Fix Red Sea exploit - teleport the loot back into the play area.:

@archangel-timmy The choise was entirely from the runner to go to the red sea, calling this an exploit on the chaser part is very illogical, this is just an excuse to pretend that my solution to the exploit creates another exploit, but its incredibly falty.

You assume the runners b-line it to the red zone, which entirely false. There are choices leading up to this, and it could be a variety of things.

• The chaser is pontlessly relentless, they are not going to be caught, give up and stop wasting time.
• The chaser drove them there but were unable to claim the prize. The chaser lost, give up and stop wasting time.

The exploit you want to create would force these players to give up a choice they should be allowed to have. In the end, if the chaser couldnt get them loot before the chase and can't gain ground, they do not deserve the prize, plain and simple. Your new ecploit would just hand them a prize for their failures, hurray for participation medals...

And if the chaser has the opportunity to plan their advance that also means the chaser can plan his escape, and if he fails to escape it wasn't an inherent disadvantage, and rather his failiure, he lost. He had plenty of options to avoid getting captured yet he was outplayed... see how derivative this is, it is literally an excuse to pretend that the fault is on the attacker and on a fix to an exploit rather than a combined set of circumstances that by luck or skill were what defined who was the victor in the pvp encounter.

If the attacker failed to get the loot before a long pointless chase, then it is literally their fault. They failed, get over it and move on. Creating an exploit to reward them for their failures is not a positive experience for anyone, except the loser in this case which happens to be the chaser. They lacked the skill to take out their target, target got away.

The best course of action depends entirely on circumstance, you have options, you have choises, the game doesn't suddenly become deterministic because I fixed an exploit.

By taking away choices with the exploit you want to add, you are creating instances where things can become restricted, taking choices away from one and giving them to the other.

WAAAAAA, someone is playing the game they paid for in a way I don’t like and doesn’t benefit me, please make them stop. 🙄

I'm not running into the Shroud to simply deny some agrro'd tryhard a little easy loot... I'm just visiting my Uncle Davy and bringing him some presents! ;)

OT... This mentioning of the "winner" being denied what's theirs is laughable! You "self identifying as the winner" due to chasing someone around endlessly, and thus being "due" any reward at the end, doesn't make it so!

You want some compensation for your time? Well so did/does the runner! In their case, it's getting the loot to an outpost. If they feel that your relentless pursuit is making that untenable, and thus they decide to break and "run for the red"... Your only option is then, stop them and take the loot before they get there!

If you can't (or didn't), then you didn't "WIN" anything and thus aren't entitled to anything!

In this instance it's an equal outcome result! Nobody gets anything in the exchange, and thus isn't an exploit!

You can say they should just git gud and turn and try to fight you from taking their time, loot, and xp... to that I can say git gud at chasing and overtaking them... to "earn" it!

@sweltering-nick said in Fix Red Sea exploit - teleport the loot back into the play area.:

Your belief, then, is that the Red Sea was designed with intentionally taking loot out of the play area in mind? You believe that was the devs intent in creating the Red Sea?

First of all, he never said that was the specific design intention of the red sea, what you did there is what is called a straw man argument... That is a fallacy, good sir.

First, a question can’t be a straw man argument - it’s a question. Second, he said, “How can this be an exploit? This is how the game works.” Given that an exploit is related to the intention of developers, saying “this is how the game works” leads to that legitimate question.

What he said is that you weren't good enough to ensure the treasure ended up in your posession, which is 100% true, mate.
Look at his upvotes, then compare it to yours... No, it's not just "his belief". xD

Appeal to popularity.

Thing is, when hunting an animal, you need to pace yourself, if you s***k the animal off a cliff into a "bottomless pit" where you can't retrieve the animal's corpse for dinner... That's YOUR mistake, mate. xD

If you push your target too hard, you will lose more than you gain... That's the lesson here, that's what you did not learn from your experience.

You need to consider your environment when playing this game, the environment is a factor that matters... So no, the devs wont make the hunt easier for you by handing you the treasure you flushed down the drain on a silver platter.

Consequences are part of the gaming experience, live with it.

If you’d read this thread, you’d know that your advice falls flat with me. I didn’t create this thread because I’m a chaser. I created this thread because there are people who sail the edge of the map and turn into the Red Sea solely as a means of avoiding the consequences of sailing with a ton of loot on their ship. Theft is a fundamental aspect of the game. I don’t believe the devs created the Red Sea so that players could say, “If I can’t have it, neither can you.” That seems to me to go against the concept of needing to actually protect your stuff from theft. If the devs wanted a way for players to take their chests and skulls out of play, they’d have created a way to do that inside the map.

@urihamrayne said in Fix Red Sea exploit - teleport the loot back into the play area.:

@archangel-timmy

You are saying that because the runners fail to escape, the chasers don't deserve the loot, which is some mental gymnastics to twist the perspective of what really happens in pvp. They lose one choise but they get to keep dozens, if the runner choses to b-line to the red sea its their choise, nothing was imposed, if their decision making leads them to being cornered and defeated, you can't spin the narrative to blame the chasers of having an "exploitative advantage", that makes no sense. What defines the end of a chase? An arbitrary time limit? Isn't the indicative of victory to the runners the abillity to create distance in a way that they secure their loot? Or that they turn against their chasers and defeat them? How many other options will you purposely ignore to maintain the fallacy that chasers lose because of some unspoken time limit?

There is only one singular choise I aim to remove, you imply a plural of choises, which is another fallacy. The choise that shouldn't be here that is to abuse an exploit, the only exploit that isn't a fallacious argument, the one you failed to disprove and time and time again you spiral deeper into this descent of denial and special pleading. The barrier exploit needs to be patched.

i'm pretty sure it is not an exploit because by definition the utilization of it would result in a gain for the user. Obviously they gain nothing by doing it but lost loot and a lost ship, not to mention the lost time. I would say its more of a cheap way to be and lack of skill on both the chaser and chased. I agree with many of the other posts as far as if thats the cheap route they decide to take and you don't stop them it's on you for not being able to. It's no different than logging in, not even make it to your ship yet due to supply gathering, and someone starts blowing holes in your ship and boards it and starts killing you. The "exploit" you describe is no different than the aforementioned "exploit".

It does not remove anything from the PVP aspect as again its a cheap way out. It's no different than any other PVP style game where you can kill yourself instead of letting someone else kill you. Or since we are on xbox and PC using party chat as a spotting tool in such PVP games as the team chat is no longer blocked. Again it's all cheap cop outs but with proper maneuvering and skill and a little practice on both you can prevent them from running. The chaser still "wins" because the chased ship is out of a ship and anything on it.

@archangel-timmy For some, there’s no need to b-line, they sail the edge of the map and turn into it if someone chooses to go after them - that’s how they play the game. This is the behavior that prompted me to start this thread. This isn’t really about chasing, it is about people feeling that their “hard-earned” rewards shouldn’t be taken by another player. But this game is about theft. The devs have made that clear. None of those “hard-earned” rewards are yours until you get them to an outpost.

The advantage to the runner is that they can use the threat of the Red Sea as a means of avoiding the consequences of their actions and prevent theft.1 Given that theft is such a fundamental part of gameplay, I don’t believe the Red Sea was created with that in mind - which is why this is an exploit. If the devs wanted there to be a means of denying chests and skulls to all parties, it would be possible to do that within the bounds of the map.

1 Barring bugs, glitches, and disconnects, any loss of loot in this game is the fault of the person carrying it.

@entspeak really wish people wouldnt whine over spilt milk

@pikavenger The devs would not agree with you:

We've made decisions where all quest rewards are physical, and all of that stuff is never truly yours until you get back to the outpost. We believe in the paranoia of having that stuff on the ship because you know that someone can come and take it.

• Mike Chapman, Rare

Nowhere have they mentioned that the Red Sea is a mechanic intended for you take your loot off the map and out of the game as a means of preventing someone from coming and taking it. If they wanted you to be able to prevent someone from stealing it by removing it from the map, they’d have put in a way to do that inside the play area.

@entspeak said in Fix Red Sea exploit - teleport the loot back into the play area.:

@pikavenger The devs would not agree with you:

We've made decisions where all quest rewards are physical, and all of that stuff is never truly yours until you get back to the outpost. We believe in the paranoia of having that stuff on the ship because you know that someone can come and take it.

• Mike Chapman, Rare

While nothing is truly yours until it hits an outpost (gold/rep), if the items are in ones possession, they get to dictate what happens to those items.

• If they want to get the gold/rep, they turn it in.
• If they want to give it to you, they can.
• If they want to take it out of play, they can.

Unless taken away of course, then it is up to the next person to decide what to do with it.

Nowhere have they mentioned that the Red Sea is a mechanic intended for you take your loot off the map and out of the game as a means of preventing someone from coming and taking it. If they wanted you to be able to prevent someone from stealing it by removing it from the map, they’d have put in a way to do that inside the play area.

A lack of explicit documentation/reference on their part isn't confirmation of your opinion though. Most of the specific mechanics of the game are undocumented outside of the company, so to say they didn't address this exact scenario directly somewhere means it wasn't intended is an assumption, an assumption I feel is inaccurate.

This post has 13 pages now with people going back and forth, it has been on the front page more than most other discussions, and Rare hasn't acknowledged it one way or the other. By your logic above, since they haven't mentioned it, and surely by now they have at least noticed this discussion, then they do not share your opinion and the barrier functions as expected. That is another assumption and it would be great if they acknowledge this one way or the other.

Heck, animals can be taken out of play. If a player doesn't want another to have their chicken, they can take it out of play very easily. They should have the same choice with other loot as well. I am sure Rare didn't expect players to board enemy ships and needlessly slaughter their live-stock. It is loot which can be turned in, and the killing benefits neither side, it actually causes grief to one side. But that is a mechanic of the game, a mechanic that Rare didn't come out and say "Hey, we built this into the game because we want you to do it and take the loot out of play".