Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal

@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

But I think it is wrong with handing in being associated with no progression :) If someone successfully steals your loot why should they not get progression? That's silly in my opinion :) Then players who enjoy Pvp and perhaps want to focus on that for a SoT session get no faction progression at all and I don't think that is fair.

This is what bothers me about this discussion. There is this mistaken notion that those who hunt ships take no risk and lose nothing, while the people who want this suggestion lose "time invested." Claiming this is the important thing they lose. But, ship hunters also lose time invested - even if they win, there's no guarantee of a reward. What do they get? The fun of the fight. Much like the fun of the fight of skelies, or of solving a riddle. It is absurd to claim there is no balance there.

Forts are a different story, but the reward for forts is so much higher that the risk should also be higher.

But, what I'm reading here is that people don't really care about their progression, at the end of the day. If someone is going to take their loot, they go off the edge of the map so that nobody can have it. Yeah, that's an exploit and impacts the time invested for ship hunters - which are a valid part of the game. Never once have I even contemplate going off the edge of the map with my loot... or the key. The devs clearly want you to put things on the line.

More and more, this just reads like people who don't like the game the devs are designing and want it to be some other game they do like. One where players can't impact another player's progress. But, that just kills what appears to be a fundamental aspect of the design - which is why other people are resistant to the suggestion.

And, people claim that they'd fight for gold and that gold will be more significant as they add more content, but, I can't help but believe that, once that happens, these same players will be complaining and sailing their ships off the edge because of the "time invested" in working for the gold they believe they've already earned from a faction without having to deliver the loot. "I can't get that expensive hull I've been working for by killing all these skeletons, solving riddles, and killing - while this other crew who have 'nothing to lose' swoop in and take it from me."

It's a slippery slope to a single player PvE game - which this was never intended to be.

And, there is this ire generated for making suggestions to people so that they don't end up leaving a session having made no progression. But, the exchange (taken only to a slighter extreme) always goes something like this:
"I can't kill another ship that comes near me and they get all my loot."
"You should fire your cannon."
"Don't tell me how to play an open world game."

As though, just because it's a game with infinite number of choices, some choices are not more successful than others and can help prevent the loss of "time invested" rendering this entire suggestion a moot point.

@touchdown1504 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak You are correct a PvP risks time invested in hunting ships! That is a very valid point. No one said don't give Reputation on turn in. You should get some reputation on turn in. PvP focused players enjoy the thrill of the fight, the slinging of the cannon balls...I do too! I love a good ship battle. But, as I mentioned before, there is no sense in engaging when I have a load of loot on my boat! So, if I can help it, I won't. And if the choice is no turn in and allowing the attacker my loot, or give my loot to the sea...it is going to the sea. That is not an exploit, it is a tactical decision. If the attacker wins they are denying my progress...yes? If I can dump my loot in the red sea I have also denied theirs. Its not that I don't care about my progress, I most certainly do (obvious from the thread don't ya' think). If I can't have it, because you are preventing my turn in, you can't have it either. Simple. The gold...we will just have to agree to disagree there. I have no doubts more would engage, and fight harder, to get gold turned in if they were not risking the loss of their rep as well. JMO. take it for what it is worth.

No... no, it's not a tactical decision. A tactical decision would be to drop some of your loot in the sea in the hopes that the other crew will take that bait and leave you with the rest... or leave a small bit of a crumb trail that they have to slow down for... that is a tactical decision... and a clever one - which gives a you greater chance of ending your session making some progression. Giving your loot "to the sea" is one thing... giving it to the red sea is another thing entirely. Turning in some of your loot during the voyage - that is also a tactical decision. The red sea is intended to prevent players from going off the map. It is not intended to be an out because you don't want others to take your loot. That is, by definition, exploiting the red sea mechanic.

@touchdown1504 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@i-am-lost-77 But.. this thread is like a home to me T_T I can't leave!....

But in all seriousness I am trying to keep the thread alive as this is the most popular thread for this sort of discussion, and when new people join I still like to discuss it with them. :)

Yup, and it should stay alive, over 220 upvotes on the OP is pretty significant. The first page alone of the thread is really a good testament to how the broader community feels about experience awards in general.

223 upvotes... for a suggestion that includes getting no XP for turning in.

@touchdown1504 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak Interesting take on it. But, I still feel it is not an exploit, and if my only recourse is sailing into oblivion, that is what is going to happen. I will be damned if someone gets my loot when there is a way to prevent it.

Well, that's just it, isn't it. You keep bringing up that this is your "only" recourse. I just explained and gave a couple of examples of how it isn't your "only" recourse. It's the recourse you are choosing. You can feel whatever you want. The fact is, using a game mechanic - whose sole purpose is to prevent people from going off the map - as a means of making a PvP player fail to gain anything for their "time invested" is, by definition, an exploit. It is, in essence, a form of combat logging. You understand the difference, yeah? Facts vs feelings?

Yes I realize what the OP has written. Obviously people agree, lots of people. I still believe there should be "some" reputation on turn in, but that is just my opinion. Several threads on the forums are discussing this, and variations of it. There are two fundamental pieces "almost" everyone in these discussions seem to agree on.

Ummm... But, you have to look at the number of people who agree with regard to how many copies were sold. A few hundred or even thousands is an insignificant number compared to millions - and there have been millions of copies sold. Add to that, again, the fact that a suggestion's value is, and should be, based on its merit and not on its popularity.

1. Logging out after a session with nothing to show for it is s**t. Plain and simple. Regardless of how you ended up in the "nothing" camp, a video game designed for entertainment and fun, is NOT fun when you log out empty handed.

Yes, it's not fun. Thank goodness there are ways to prevent that from happening.

@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak I think there are a couple of important distinctions which this thread has made me think about.

1. It depends on what the PvPer wants, plenty of people do it purely for fun and not for the reward (although of course some do it for the reward too). The people who do it for fun have no real risk, no...

Sure, but even those who do it for fun invest time in the game... and, if they do it solely for fun, they will never progress in the game.

2. PvP definitely has a lower risk than PvE players, I don't think that is up for debate, PvE players literally have loot on board, if they lose a fight they lose a ton of progress, PvPers lose they lose nothing. Lets be real here, if PvPers really wanted to properly train their character then they are foolish to use PvP to do that, focusing on completing voyages is far more efficient.

This is where this falls apart, in my opinion. PvP'ers interested, in progressing in the game, still have to get the loot to an outpost.

So, what happens with this suggestion, then? You are giving partial reputation to the person who dug it up, partial reputation to the person who sinks that ship... but, what if they don't make it to the outpost and are sunk by another ship? The time and effort of the original PvP'ers who took the loot originally... what do they get? A hearty handshake? Or, perhaps, they get a little bit of reward for taking the loot from you, and then, so does the other ship... but, if that other ship doesn't make it to the outpost... what happens to the reward for their time and effort... etc, etc... So, the game is supposed to now track loot reputation value as it exchanges hands from ship to ship?

This suggestion doesn't work. The current system does... you only gain the potential for rewards through your efforts (be it PvP, or PvE), and gain the rewards if you deliver. Easy peasy. That is how you create the tension the devs want for the game.

I mean, you could add another category of Reputation - a pirate specific reputation that isn't tied to the other factions, but... if you want to see increased PvP for the sake of PvP - that's the way to guarantee it and those who are complaining now will scream louder then.

So.. I do think it is a bit more balanced than people make out BUT I do agree that it's bad game design to allow players to not get progress from other aspects of the game which they have completed successfully.

That depends on how you define "completed successfully." Currently, under the nothing is yours until you deliver it concept which, according to the article cited in this thread seems to be a fundamental aspect of the game, "completed successfully" means on delivery.

Why should I get nothing? Sure I don't mind losing a very significant amount, but NOTHING?... Come on I should be awarded some progression for the things I did do and did complete. I shouldn't have to log off after I've run out of time and think 'aw... well I literally got no closer to PL...' I should have earned SOMETHING, the quantity is debatable.

And this is what I don't understand. Nothing?! Absolutely nothing?! You literally log off having never turned in a single piece of loot? How?! How does that happen? Bugs and server issues aside, how?! I honestly don't get it because this has never happened to me and I am a casual solo player. I'm not talking about losing everything from a particular encounter during a session - people here are saying they finish the game for the evening having never turned in a single piece of loot. I can't get my head around that.

This thread is not about a single player PvE game and there is no slippery slope here. Don't link two completely different subjects. I am completely against PvE only servers, but this thread is not discussing that.

I'm talking about what it devolves into when this suggestion is taken to the next logical conclusion.

Look, shooting a cannon, does not guarantee you won't be sank.

If you never fire the cannon, you will never know. The point is, in open world games like this, that require developing a strategy, some strategies work, some don't - that is the nature of the game. Some things may take more effort to minimize the risk. But, when people post here that their "only recourse" is to dump their loot in the red sea so that other players can't have it, that's not strategizing. I literally gave examples of other recourses, and @TouchDown1504 still says he'll exploit it if it's his only recourse. It's never the only recourse.

So, why is this suggestion necessary when the same ends can be achieved through strategy - which is clearly what the devs want players to do?

But why should the PvEr get NOTHING for the time they spent obtaining that loot? It is bad gameplay design and it leads to the negative experiences people are sharing on this thread and indeed other threads.

That isn't bad game design... it happens a lot in games - if you lose, you don't get the points. It's been that way since Pong. You may get points when you score... but scoring here involves delivery - everything else is moving the puck and hitting the block.

@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak
Exactly and what I'm saying is if they do it for fun then perhaps progression isn't important to them..

Well, from what I've read and seen, PvP'ers go for the loot. There have been many complaints that PvP is unrewarding because many times you sink a ship it has no loot.

But, the moment you give experience for sinking ships or killing other pirates is the moment this game becomes a mindless deathmatch. But, as you say, that suggestion isn't part of this particular thread.

I am not saying PvP don't have risk! I am saying it is inherently less risk and that's a fact, there is less risk when you have less to lose, that's just undebatable.

You stand to not gain reputation and gold, they stand to not gain reputation and gold. That's balanced. That same potential to not gain reputation exists for whoever has the loot until it is turned to the outpost. That is balanced.

For the sake of this thread, lets say yes they don't get progresion if their loot is stolen by a secondary PvPer... [leaving the part out that you said isn't part of this thread]... They would not have completed any of the tasks to obtain the loot so would not get progression from that.

Wow, so the time and effort they put into getting that gold from the first group... that's worth nothing in this game... the whole "being a pirate" part gets nothing. That's ridiculous.

If people have an issue stealing loot, then being sunk and not getting progression they can discuss it on the forum but I really don't think that is an issue and won't be...

You've never seen a ship that has stolen loot from another ship then be sunk itself? Hell, this almost happened to me today. It happens.

You're just wanting to pass the buck to the next guy impacted by this suggestion? What happened to this suggestion having no impact on the gameplay of other players?

Look, the reason people get rewards for efforts from delivering is because it's a core aspect of this game to have some physical object to defend, that's how the PvPvE works in this game. I am NOT suggesting to remove that, it would be extremely simple to keep that while also awarding progression for other tasks completed.

You diminish the tension the devs have explicitly stated is at the core of this game when you give rewards for failed strategies.

You can see how i'm referring to completed successfully, I'm referring to smaller tasks. Riddles, digging up loot, killing skeletons...

Yes, but in this game, the point is to do that and return to the faction with the loot. There's a reason it is set up that way, and that is to increase the tension. This suggestion is a release valve for that tension. That's why it's not a good idea.

What? How is it hard to get your head around? Because the loot gets stolen.. I think you've missed the whole point of this thread?...

Every time? From every segment of the voyage? It was stolen every time they left an island? That's a kind of unlucky that I find difficult to believe.

What? I have fired cannons before... sometimes you win sometimes you lose.

Yes. And sometimes, you run away and they catch you. But, firing the cannons is a strategy that can lead to success. There are many strategies that can lead to success. Some don't. Some are riskier. Like not doing periodic deliveries during a voyage. I don't think players should be rewarded for failing after adopting a risky strategy. Success is not guaranteed once you've dug up a chest or killed all the skelies - that is only part of the task. That is hitting the block with the puck. But, you still have to deal with the fact that another player may hit the block back and score at your expense.

**no strategy is removed - players will still have to defend their loot and that will still be a core aspect of the game, all this will do is remove some of the negativity associated with losing your loot. **

It negatively impacts the progression of PvP players (who also invest time and effort into their style of gameplay) and it reduces the tension that the devs have explicitly stated is at the heart of this game.

Some people just want the game to be easier - that's what this suggestion boils down to.

@veristepes said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@savagetwinky but you don't know that the chests that pop are tracked as what kind they are specifically to your party. Just because you program doesn't mean you know how the game tracks specific instances and to claim you know more because you program at all is just idiotic man. Don't get all high and mighty without facts it just makes you look dumb

It's not idiotic. If you don't understand programming then your probably not going to think about the systems that already have to be there to accomplish what they are doing now and applying it to what you want to do. As a software engineer, I do that for a living, someone asks me how long to implement this feature and the first thing to look at is what is already there to leverage, and what systems it will have to play nicely with.

They know at the time of digging up the chest whether or not its part of a voyage. Regardless of whether or not the chest is functionally tracked today, it wouldn't require a new system at all to understand the context of the chest. Unless you want to call associating an ID to a chest instance a new "system". We 100% know that the voyages are tracked and objectives are satisfied with finding a chest.

So before you start saying I look dumb and need to use facts.. you should take a good look at your arguments against me, they are neither based on fact nor experience in how software systems work.

@arch-fable

What is a spectrometer?

Spectrometers get essentially a signatire of something in the form of a spectrum. A mass spectrometer measure the mass of a molecule to try to identify the chemical.

@touchdown1504 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak I am not going to nitpick your post. That's your thing. The whole quote and argue every last sentence.

It is not an exploit! A player has the right to deny loot by any means necessary, just like a player has a right to steal loot by any means necessary. Combat logging is a definite exploit, no denying that, but a simple log timer would remove that issue.

So, if someone wall glitches you and kills you to steal your loot it's not an exploit? You are removing your ship from the game with the specific intent of preventing other players from getting your loot.You are using the mechanic intended to prevent ships from going off the map for the sole purpose of taking loot out of play - that is an exploit. By definition, an exploit. Very akin to combat logging - which, essentially, does the same thing. The difference is, that they've dealt with combat logging as it basically just scuttles the ship and the loot can be taken if salvaged. Your exploit is a way around that.

What I said was (key word ready?) IF I have no other recourse, as in I getting my a*s kicked, and I can't get anywhere the outpost for even a flyby, then I am sailing off the map. From launch till now, I have done it twice, and I expect I will do it again, IF I have no other outs.

You said:

I work the edge of the map now as much as I can. If I am loaded with loot and no chance to get to an outpost I head to the "red sea".

Of course you're not going to get anywhere near an outpost if you work the edge of the map with all of your loot. This is something you are preparing to do "as much as you can." This is your strategy - to use this exploit.

Why, would I do anything to allow someone to take the progress I worked for?

L**O. Because, that's the game, man. That's the game. Wow. If you go all in at Poker and it looks like you're going to lose, you can't take your cash off the table... even if it means you're going to lose it all - no matter how much time and effort you put into the game.

The problem with literally all of your arguments is it appears you under the assumption that players that champion the idea of being rewarded experience points for the "Experience" do not know how to play this game.

No. Again, that's your interpretation of what I'm saying. I'd love to hear exactly how you are ending up logging off having turned in zero loot. How does that happen, exactly? I've heard you talking about carrying a "ton of loot". That's risky. You believe that you should be able to take that risk of losing all your loot at once and be rewarded when that risk doesn't pay off?

Nobody is trying to make the game "easier".

Is it easier to progress if you gain reputation simply by digging up a chest or killing the skeletons and not have to worry about delivering the loot to an outpost to make that progress?

No one is trying to change PvP.

There is trying to do a thing, and then there is doing something else that results in that thing. Whether you are trying or not, the result is the same.

We are discussing the rewards system and how it sucks to log out empty handed...and before you say it...good for you if never log out empty handed, or...good for you if it doesn't affect your "fun". You still have not wrapped your head around any of this. You are simply arguing to argue.

No, I'm arguing because this is not a good suggestion and you keep making fallacious arguments.

If it turns the tide, I will drop it all.

Turns the tide?! LOL. There'd have to be a tide first.

@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak But it's more then that. A PvP player stands to not gain rep and gold. A PvE player stands to lose any loot or gold they have already found. Yes I know it isn't 'theirs' until they hand it in at an outpost, but they own the physical objects which can grant them loot and gold. That's what they stand to lose. PvPers never have that to begin with, they don't lose anything other then time. PvPers risk losing the gold/rep they have obtained (loot) and time.

I do see where you are coming from however but certainly from the perspective of the PvEr the loss is a lot more painful for them who have spent the time voyaging and working to obtain the loot. That's essentially what this thread is trying to address.

But this assumes that the PvP'er knows you have loot and how much. They have no idea. And, if it takes an hour of chasing, firing cannonballs, dying... they may still only end up with nothing or very little. They may work just as hard at trying to get your loot as you did getting it on the island.

...this thread is primarily addressing PvErs, if PvPrs aren't happy with their rewards then that should be addressed in different threads.

No, by design, there is no pure PvE, so the impact this will have on PvP must be considered and not simply passed down after for PvP players to address. PvP is always a part of this game - even it it is simply the potential for it.

The tension is not going to be diminished if the reward in the loot box is sufficient, that's the point I am making. Some people have suggested 100% progression on finishing the voyage. The reason I am completely against that is because it removes too much tension! However a small bonus to what currently exists is not going to diminish the tension significantly but it will cushion the blow when people lose their loot. I'm not saying that people shouldn't feel tension, and shouldn't feel loss, but I think it will improve every's moods if people got a little something for their troubles...

Cushioning the blow, ipso facto, diminishes the tension. That's like saying this suggestion doesn't make the game easier... of course it does. If you don't have to deliver the loot in order to progress, it is easier to get progress.

'Yes, but in this game, the point is to do that and return to the faction with the loot. There's a reason it is set up that way, and that is to increase the tension. This suggestion is a release valve for that tension. That's why it's not a good idea.'
I agree, and that core aspect should never be removed. The suggestion is a small release valve for tension...

But, you just said, "The tension is not going to be diminished if the reward in the loot box is sufficient." You said this was the "point you were making."

At the end of the day I understand your point of view and I did initially feel like you. I think what made me change my opinion is the fact that I realised that:

1. This could easily be implemented without compromising the core ideology Rare want

Well, apparently, it does or doesn't depending on which paragraph you read in your post.

2. I think it would have a massive positive impact on the game. You've seen the number of players who have made threads about PvE servers and everything else... I do think that a lot of them just want rid of PvP altogether which is rubbish, but some of them are genuinely players who spent 90 minutes or so playing a game they enjoy and felt a bit bummed out about getting NOTHING for their time spent.

And, I am one of those players most of the time. In fact, I just put in a suggestion for keeping voyages on the table when you log off so that casual players can complete them over multiple sessions. Which is why I'm skeptical that this is happening. It has never happened to me. Which is why I think it is more about the strategies chosen by people playing for these short periods of time - they want the game to be easier for them... but, when I offered a suggestion that might alleviate it, they told me not to tell them how to play an open world game. So, not knowing exactly what is happening, I'm wary of the stated reason. Especially since the reason seems to shift the more you dig. Earlier, it was partly because of storms and krakens. When I asked about that, I just got personally insulted and it hasn't been mentioned since. Now, we have a guy whose tactic is to stick to the edges of the map - increasing his delivery time, but giving him the opportunity to use an exploit when challenged to deny PvPers a chance to progress. So, I'm wary. I get stuff stolen all the time, but I have never come away from a short play session with NOTHING gained in terms of progression.

It's simply not fun to log onto a game and log out 2 hours later with 0 progress...

Yeah, that would be no fun. As I have said before, thank goodness there are currently ways to prevent that from happening.

Heck, I can think of many other games I play and all of them award SOMETHING even when you lose, even if it's just a little exp, or 30% of the gold you would have got if you had won. (not suggesting these figures would apply here..)

This isn't those games. The devs stated the type of game they were looking at when designing this game. They didn't want it to be as punishing as those games, but still punishing. They've done that.

I suppose you could see this as making the game 'easier' in a sense.

It's not a matter of "could"... this suggestion absolutely does.

The PVP won't be any easier of course, but players will still have gained progression, so progressing will be slightly easier yes, but I don't think it will make a significant difference - the grind to PL is a steep one. I am not suggesting for a second that players should get the majority of their rewards necessarily, but something, yes.

I just feel this is an issue solved through strategy - which, again, is how the devs have explicitly stated they want players to deal with the potential for loss.

Guess I’ll have to wait until you finish completely re-writing your post. I’ve got, like three versions captured.

But, taking what I can currently see above... please, explain the other reasons you lose your loot? Krakens - only apply to Galleons and not very often? Storms - can be seen coming for miles and you can go around them? How are these such an issue that the game design needs to change? Or, are there more? What are these other reasons?

And, you keep saying The Sea or You... but that’s not really it, right? It’s The Red Sea or You. If you just dumped it in the sea, good on ya... at least you wouldn’t be taking it out of play by taking your ship out of the play area. By definition... an exploit. How many people do it is irrelevant.

And how can I be copping out of something that doesn’t need to be done and that I never said I would do?

Yes! Agree on this!