Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal

  • TouchDown1504
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    Founder

    @graiis I picked this out of your post to make a point:

    "Noone who does PvP is going to feel forced into doing pve just because pve gives a bit of rep when you finish stuff"

    In many PvP vs. PvE threads I have seen people say they should not be "forced" into PvE game play. But it is ok to be forced into PvP? This brings us full circle to what I meant very early on in this thread about "risk vs. reward" balancing. Anyhow, try to convince others that being forced into PvE is just as okay as being forced into PvP...the justifications for being forced into PvP but not forced into PvE make for a fantastic read.

  • entspeak
    Captain
    Insider

    @touchdown1504 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

    @entspeak Absolutely not! As mentioned before I firmly believe that reputation should be rewarded for engaging in ship battles/PvP. I have always maintained, and still maintain, no one should ever log out (under TITP LOL) empty handed.

    Okay... but - and this is where it gets frustrating... there are those here who are helping develop this idea that feel otherwise... and it really gets confusing about where this idea sits at any given hour on any given day. And with the latest version of this suggestion it is possible for a PvP player to log out with little to show for TIP (Time Invested in Progression) - how's that for an acronym?

    Look, it makes absolute zero sense (to me at least) How the system works. Hang on before you jump into what the devs "intended". I understand HOW it works, and the WHY behind it (physical objects and all that jazz) it just makes zero sense is what I am saying. Like I have mentioned too many times... Who would really have a better "Reputation"? The guy who turned in a treasure chest and three chickens? Or the one that defeated the Kraken?

    Would you have better Reputation with a Merchant and a Gold Hoarder for turning in a treasure chest and three chickens vs. defeating a Kraken? Yes. And, that's who you are gaining Reputation with, not with other players. The real problem is that those experience points don't actually do anything but pile more of the same work on your plate... for the same measly awards... and, while you are doing more work, it means less in terms of leveling up, because the chests and skulls decrease in reputation value. So, beyond gold rewards and the cosmetic items you can buy with it, there really is little reason to progress. I mean, they do give you a new chest as a Pirate Legend, but... apart from that, it's more of the same... just more of it at a time.

    But, I stand by the decisions they've made with quest rewards. When @AngryCoconut16 responded to someone talking about being in a cave and having a Galleon take you by surpise, it made me sad. He said something along the lines of, 'Well, you could have someone watching out for sails, but that's no fun... it's more fun to be out there solving the riddle.' That's disappointing, because I feel like part of TIP (yep, I like it) should be about investing in making sure your ship doesn't sink so that you can deliver the loot. I'm worried that with a mentality like that, the bonus makes abandoning your ship and loot to be sunk feel like a reasonable decision, because at least you'll get something. I don't know about you, but I always feel a sense of pride when I've completed a play session with the same ship I started with - patched holes and all... even if it meant at some point I was running all over an island muttering madly to myself, "this riddle is taking too long, THIS RIDDLE IS TAKING WAYYY TOO LONG." and scrambling to a cliffside to check for sails.

    I do agree that something needs to change - but, I believe that needs to be more content and mission types - which they say are coming... and more rewarding mission types as you progress - which I don't know if they are going to do or not. I agree that the dearth of content is a big problem.

    Speaking of way too long. This post. Plenty more to say given the stuff that's been written since I started responding, but it's late.

  • I Am Lost 77

    @entspeak pretty sure me @TouchDown1504 and @AngryCoconut16 all are in favor of PvP rewards. hell @AngryCoconut16 made a post about PvP faction and I plan to do the same at some point. We’re not against PvP we are simply here to address a problem with a good solution. One that I personally think would be easy to implement and will have overall very positive impact on gameplay.

  • AngryCoconut16

    @quietrobot said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

    @angrycoconut16 I understand you perfectly, but even so, I think that getting to sell the chests (without receiving experience) is reason enough to defend them: money to buy cosmetics, animals, etc.

    I think this would solve two things:

    • I would give more importance to the realization of missions and that many users are not just dedicated to bother and steal.
    • Fraud in experience increase would be avoided (like twitch boy)

    The trouble is, what happens when you have nothing else to buy? This is the case for many people at the moment. Gold is only as valuable as the possibility of spending it and what you stand to gain for it, progression is always valuable! (Up until 50, but that's fairly steep and gold will be less use far earlier than reaching 50). Animals are going to be added but I think a lot will be micro transactions anyway? We'll have to wait and see.

    Stealing is a core part of the game, as is defending your items. That's why the loot has got to be associated with progression, otherwise a significant portion of the community won't care what happens with the chest after they get their progression. That's why a bonus system is a better way to go about it..

    Twitch boy is a separate issue. Rare should have come up with a system to deal with it by now because it's far too easy to abuse..

  • AngryCoconut16

    @i-am-lost-77 I honestly would be surprised if Rare would be so generous unfortunately, but I think 50% would be the magic number. If it is too low it would be nice but I still wouldn't PvP. If I got 50-75% bonus, with 100% at stake in the loot, I would be a lot riskier! I wouldn't mind losing my loot if I still got that bonus! I know earlier I was using 25-50% figures as examples but I've been thinking about it more and I think it should be higher than 25 for sure. But lets see what happens.

  • AngryCoconut16

    @touchdown1504 Your third paragraph sums it up so perfectly. Rare themselves CREATED a goal line, so they can't tell people 'oh no this shouldn't be your aim this isn't important just play the game!' Of course players are going to make this their aim, not everyone! But some people! (Me included!) Yes the game is beautiful, yes sometimes I like to just stare open mouthed at the sea in a storm, or the sunset and the beautiful night sky, yes I enjoy the game, but YES I WANT PIRATE LEGEND xD Like you say it's also human nature, we want to feel accomplished, like we have achieved something. This isn't freaking Abzu or some other open world walk around and just enjoy game experience this is a competitive environment they have introduced!

    I think they could easily award bonus progression on 'voyage complete', that can't be too hard to code, I'm sure they've had to code harder things. Trouble is, I think this would be so positive for the game but I have a feeling Rare might be a bit too stubborn to do it and will implement something else, which is great, but I worry that it won't be a true solution and will just circle around the issue... Ugh. We'll see. I can see this suggestion doing so much good for the game :/

    They could easily add kraken rep under faction of souls, just make it so that every player gets awarded an item to turn into the NPC at any time (no quest required), on turning this in, boom you get some rep. Sorted.

  • lotrmith
    Marauder
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    @i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

    @entspeak pretty sure me @TouchDown1504 and @AngryCoconut16 all are in favor of PvP rewards. hell @AngryCoconut16 made a post about PvP faction and I plan to do the same at some point. We’re not against PvP we are simply here to address a problem with a good solution. One that I personally think would be easy to implement and will have overall very positive impact on gameplay.

    The solution to your problem is to pay more attention to the horizon and to turn in loot more often.

  • AngryCoconut16

    @lotrmith Then you clearly don't understand the problem we are trying to solve.

  • lotrmith
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    @angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

    @lotrmith Then you clearly don't understand the problem we are trying to solve.

    You want to lessen the loss of players who are sunk before turning in loot. If not, you need your own thread.

  • AngryCoconut16

    @lotrmith Correct. And your 'solution' is to pay more attention to the horizon, as if that will stop PvP combat, or stop us ever being sunk. It is INEVITABLE that every single one of us will be sunk sooner or later, it doesn't matter the reason, whether it was because we got complacent, whether we got sunk by a better player or whether we wanted to engage in the fight ourselves (which we don't, because it involves too much risk - shocker, another advantage of this suggestion). Your comment is not a solution.

    More to the point, people who are for this suggestion are NOT anti-PvP, and we WANT to be chased, we DON'T MIND being sunk, and we would LIKE to engage in PvP more. The problem we are discussing is that there is TOO much loss, we want loss to be a factor, as that introduces the exciting element of risk into the game which Rare want and which we enjoy, but at the moment the loss is simply too extreme. Your comment is a good general tactic if we were complaining about too frequent or unwanted PvP interaction, but that is not our problem. PvP interaction is inevitable, and we WANT healthy PvP, our problem is the loss associated with losing your loot.

  • UrihamRayne
    Legend
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    Founder

    @angrycoconut16 well then just "pay more attention to the horizon and turn in loot more often."

    l**o. We solved this non-issue on page 2.

  • AngryCoconut16

    @urihamrayne You don't understand. The problem isn't the fact that we lose loot, we are happy to lose loot, the problem is how extreme the loss is.

    This is not a difficult concept to grasp guys come on... We are happy to be beaten and lose our loot, but why is the loss so extreme despite all the time we put into the game. It creates a very negative gaming experience (proven by the people asking for PvE servers, the people leaving, the people creating rage threads...) and is a bit too extreme. They can easily keep the core aspect of risk in the game, whilst reducing this loss a bit.

  • lotrmith
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    @angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

    @urihamrayne You don't understand. The problem isn't the fact that we lose loot, we are happy to lose loot, the problem is how extreme the loss is.

    This is not a difficult concept to grasp guys come on... We are happy to be beaten and lose our loot, but why is the loss so extreme despite all the time we put into the game. It creates a very negative gaming experience (proven by the people asking for PvE servers, the people leaving, the people creating rage threads...) and is a bit too extreme. They can easily keep the core aspect of risk in the game, whilst reducing this loss a bit.

    High highs. Low lows. Again as said, this non-issue was solved a hundred pages ago.

    You're playing the wrong game, mate.

  • UrihamRayne
    Legend
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    Founder

    @angrycoconut16 "but why is the loss so extreme despite all the time we put into the game."

    I mean more than one person already responded and debunked that ITT, sounds like you are the one that doesn't understand. You guys can insist forever in softening the blow of defeat for casual players like op and the endless droves of drones that play on hard mode solo and complain about it being hard. I choose to learn, you guys choose to beg. l**o.

  • AngryCoconut16

    @lotrmith It's not a low low, it's a crippling low. It's not a non-issue as it literally makes people feel like c**p. Lots of people have left the game over this, I saw someone yesterday post a thread purely to rage about the fact he had lost his loot and felt like he had wasted his time. It is deflating and it makes you not want to play again for a while. This game should not make you feel like that, and yes, it does matter how casuals feel because this game was literally marketed towards casual players and 12+ year olds, so their experience does matter. You clearly don't understand how beneficial this would be for the game. Don't you want people to have more meaningful PvP? Your solution is literally 'ok watch the horizon, if there is a ship, run if you want to protect your loot' is it not? Do you not see how that is harming PvP interaction? Most people are terrified of PvP if they have loot in their ship. Wouldn't you rather people are ENCOURAGED to participate in combat and enjoy that aspect of the game rather than fleeing all the damn time?

    @urihamrayne Nothing has been debunked, what are you talking about? It is an extreme loss.. to play an entire gaming session and get nothing from it is pretty extreme for a game which is supposedly enjoyable by casual players, this isn't dark souls, this game is hardly advertised as a game which involves that sort of experience, so why is it so extreme? And you choose to ignore the potential benefits of this post and just be dismissive rather than THINKING about the consequences this would have if implemented.

    Anyway I couldn't care less if you guys think it's a non-issue, if that is the case why are you here? You shouldn't even be commenting when you don't understand the issue which people are attempting to resolve. More to the point, this suggestion would only affect you positively too.. so why would you be so dismissive? There are no negative implications from this suggestion, literally none.

  • UrihamRayne
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    @angrycoconut16 "why are you here?"

    just to be annoying at this point, I know you will just keep repeating yourself until you break your fingers despite how sensible people have come here to enlighten the thread, but instead find an echochamber for poorly made arguments, strawmens, goalpost moving, special pleading and such...

  • lotrmith
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    @angrycoconut16

    Saying there are no consequences doesn't make it so. They've been explained to you a dozen times.

    It's been shown through the dev's own words that losing your loot is your own fault, as a result of your own poor decisions not the least of which were paying too little attention and playing a session too long without stopping at an outpost, and that the result is a low low that they allow by design to maintain the feeling of excitement, risk, and danger.

    If none of those things sound right to you, you're playing the wrong game.

  • TouchDown1504
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    Founder

    @lotrmith I can agree with what is said here. However, "low,low" and "cripplingly low" are arguably subjective. I suppose only the developers can define that, it is their game after all...except in the fact they are supposedly following player feedback. Such as the Death Tax that was killed, or the upcoming 4 man sloop that has gone away (so far). That would be player feedback that helped in adjusting an idea.

    Poor Decisions.... I agree 100%. Here is where the game shines. Decision making...except for when it doesn't.

    See, I have decided that if my loss is total on a PvP encounter, I will absolutely make sure the attackers loss is also total. Hence sailing the edge. Some how I don't think that is what the developers envisioned. I like the game enough to continue playing, and I have enough faith in the developers that the game will indeed flesh out. But for the time being total loss in nonsense. And I suspect many of you know that maybe even secretly agree. Therefore people have made decisions to play the game differently, (the edge) which in turn p****s off the other group of people (it is an exploit they say!). Well I would say hopping to crews to Legend is an exploit, AFK the Ferry is an exploit, shooting through walls is an exploit, nothing is being done. There are bigger issues here on the bug side of the problems. Like oh, I don't know, the cheating going on? We can make a massive list.

    The bottom line is, I am being a d**k by sailing the edge, and doing so intentionally, because no other player will progress off of my time under any circumstance if it means I risk 100% loss. The funny thing is more and more are doing it now. So...How do we fix that? Speaking for myself, and myself only, make sure my loss is not total loss. Simple. In the mean time, see you on the edge, good luck getting my loot, ain't gonna happen.

  • I Am Lost 77

    @lotrmith said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

    The solution to your problem is to pay more attention to the horizon and to turn in loot more often.

    Sounds like that ruins PvP.

    I’d rather have people more inclined to fight for their treasure then always run Bc they don’t want to lose everything. Just sayin.

    Currently there is no insentive to fight when you have treasure. if you lose no progress. So instead it just becomes a long boring chase. If I got some progression i might turn around and face the guy to save the time of the chase. If I lose at least I got something.

  • UrihamRayne
    Legend
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    Founder

    @i-am-lost-77 stop running and sink your opponents, you don't need an incentive to protect yourself that is just common sense. But if you are really a runner, follow touchdown's advice, run to the edge so nobody gets nothing. l**o

  • I Am Lost 77

    @urihamrayne said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

    @i-am-lost-77 stop running and sink your opponents, you don't need an incentive to protect yourself that is just common sense. But if you are really a runner, follow touchdown's advice, run to the edge so nobody gets nothing. l**o

    Why should I engage an opponent who most likely has nothing when I risk literally everything? why would u want the game to encourage running?

  • UrihamRayne
    Legend
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    @i-am-lost-77 "Why should I engage an opponent who most likely has nothing when I risk literally everything?"

    to defend yourself, you don't need an incentive for anything really, the game gives you options and doesn't punish you for doing a strategy over the other, it only punishes for failiure.

    l**o now i'm the one repeating myself

  • I Am Lost 77

    @angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

    @i-am-lost-77 I honestly would be surprised if Rare would be so generous unfortunately, but I think 50% would be the magic number. If it is too low it would be nice but I still wouldn't PvP. If I got 50-75% bonus, with 100% at stake in the loot, I would be a lot riskier! I wouldn't mind losing my loot if I still got that bonus! I know earlier I was using 25-50% figures as examples but I've been thinking about it more and I think it should be higher than 25 for sure. But lets see what happens.

    Even with 100% bonus you still leave half your possible gain on the beach. Not saying it should be this high but I doubt leaving chests behind will be a problem

  • I Am Lost 77

    @urihamrayne this game completely encourages fleeing which is unhealthy for PvP

  • AngryCoconut16

    @lotrmith said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

    @angrycoconut16

    Saying there are no consequences doesn't make it so. They've been explained to you a dozen times.

    It's been shown through the dev's own words that losing your loot is your own fault, as a result of your own poor decisions not the least of which were paying too little attention and playing a session too long without stopping at an outpost, and that the result is a low low that they allow by design to maintain the feeling of excitement, risk, and danger.

    If none of those things sound right to you, you're playing the wrong game.

    And losing loot will still be our own fault... and the low low feeling simply doesn't elicit those feelings. It doesn't elicit excitement, risk and danger, that's the feeling when you have loot of value ON your ship. The low low is experienced on loss and it elicits feelings of resentment, frustration, anger, sadness... THAT is the issue.

    I will say again. I LOVE the feeling of risk, danger, excitement. That isn't the problem. I'm not talking about avoiding losing loot, I'm not talking about changing the current system, I'm just talking about trying to make it a bit more positive than it is now. Yes it will still be a low, but just not as deflating of an experience for the player. Jesus, it's like talking to a brick wall.

  • TouchDown1504
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    Founder

    @urihamrayne Sinking opponents is well and good. I have won some...I have lost some. The point (which now I am repeating myself)....is the attacker risks nothing but a respawn. The attacked, risks everything. It literally makes no sense to engage if it can be avoided, thus making the PvP aspect of the game pointless. Not to mention it is just a battle of attrition and ladder catching anyhow...maybe that will change in the Hungering Deep. We shall see...

  • UrihamRayne
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    @i-am-lost-77 anectote here:

    Was playing solo yesterday, I wanted to test some things with GH, since I already maxed MA, so i had a bunch of chests with me, I aproach an outpost (dagger tooth) with a duo sloop (saw them both at the beach), I decided to go past them and park on the other side of the island without bothering them. However they notice me and decide to engage, I happily reply by repositioning myself away from them until I get a favorable angle to bombard them, after a volley of 10 cannonballs and anchoring my boat I shoot myself over to them, anchor them, kill them both and allow them to sink. I return to the outpost, uncontested to sell my loot.

    Had this been a 4v1 scenario I bet I'd lose, but there is always a chanse, I've done it before, but yesterday I was not very sober. At no time in this fight the game told me to run or to fight, I decided what to do, and I came out as a victorious man with a story to tell, or maybe a s*b story for people to laught with me.

  • I Am Lost 77

    @urihamrayne said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

    @i-am-lost-77 anectote here:

    Was playing solo yesterday, I wanted to test some things with GH, since I already maxed MA, so i had a bunch of chests with me, I aproach an outpost (dagger tooth) with a duo sloop (saw them both at the beach), I decided to go past them and park on the other side of the island without bothering them. However they notice me and decide to engage, I happily reply by repositioning myself away from them until I get a favorable angle to bombard them, after a volley of 10 cannonballs and anchoring my boat I shoot myself over to them, anchor them, kill them both and allow them to sink. I return to the outpost, uncontested to sell my loot.

    Had this been a 4v1 scenario I bet I'd lose, but there is always a chanse, I've done it before, but yesterday I was not very sober. At no time in this fight the game told me to run or to fight, I decided what to do, and I came out as a victorious man with a story to tell, or maybe a s*b story for people to laught with me.

    Glad you beat an inexperienced crew? Want a medal? Had you failed and they killed you sailed up to your boat and sunk it before you respawn you would have ending you play session with nothing for all the risk you took.

    I’d prefer more people do this kind of thing. by not worrying so much about every thing they did being lost, they just might.

  • UrihamRayne
    Legend
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    @i-am-lost-77 "How you failed and they killed you sailed up to your boat and sunk it before you respawn you would have ending you play session with nothing for all the risk you took."

    well not really, because before coming to dagger tooth I had cashed in some chests before, I used a checkpoint. l**o

    Anyway, you can't know if they were inexperienced, maybe I outplayed them, maybe they made a mistake that I capitalized on? That isn't the point of the anecdote, I just wanted to show you that defending yourself is not the end of the world and can and should be done.

  • I Am Lost 77

    @urihamrayne said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

    well not really, because before coming to dagger tooth I had cashed in some chests before

    Well I’m glad you gave an example of how mitigating your loss allows you to take more risk. thank you for proving a point of this thread. cheers mate!

  • UrihamRayne
    Legend
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    @i-am-lost-77 yes I am glad that the game provides ways to mitigate loss without the need of op's suggestion.

    L M A O

  • I Am Lost 77

    @urihamrayne that all well and good if you have an open outpost to sail to and your not being chased.

    your 1 example only proves to me less risk increases the chance of pvp encounters. Thanks for the support!

  • UrihamRayne
    Legend
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    @i-am-lost-77 well then defend yourself and sink your foes! :^)

  • I Am Lost 77

    @urihamrayne as soon as I get my xp from voyage completion! :)

  • lotrmith
    Marauder
    Insider

    @i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

    @urihamrayne said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

    well not really, because before coming to dagger tooth I had cashed in some chests before

    Well I’m glad you gave an example of how mitigating your loss allows you to take more risk. thank you for proving a point of this thread. cheers mate!

    You mean that you already have the means to mitigate loss, and nothing more is necessary?

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