The Slow Nerfing of Sloops

@renegadeferret1 you're right. With harpoons it's much easier to destroy sloop as a galleon. It was much harded before it and sloop has real chance to stand against the biggest ship.

I may hold this unpopular opinion here, but I see the ships as only a means to fit the needs to player numbers. The ships, while having strength and weaknesses, were never intended to be on an equal playing field from the start. Player numbers is almost a universal rule in strength when it pertains to sandbox games. Essentially a sloop crew of equal level shouldn't be able to overcome a Galleon of equal level. This could be said about any game with clans versus small groups in games like Ark, Rust, or any other Sandbox game.

In before players chime in with the, "I've sank Galleons as a sloop," responses. I'm aware it can happen because I have done it as well on many occasions. However, high chance that crew wasn't on an equal skill level from the start. Skill gaps can still exists, but they aren't a guarantee to always be present.

@galactic-geek Yah saying "false" to things like this to sound like an authority doesn't make you one. There are partial truths in what he said which I feel he adequately explained his meaning. Have some nuance and empathy would ya?

@RenegadeFerret1 I agree with you that sloop isn't a very strong ship, and as other's have said wasn't designed to be on the same footing as the larger ships. This is by design because Rare never intended it, and I think wants to encourage bigger crew sizes to reduce server strain. I think it's a mistake for them to keep the sloop as slow as it is, which I feel could balance the inequities you mention here. I find sloop to be more about diplomacy in its current state, providing the opportunity for a crew of 1 or 2 to aid a larger vessel or to team up with other unfortunate sloopers. It's a shame that the community at large doesn't think outside the box on this issue, but a powerful fast sloop (that actually sinks quickly) is just what the game needs to encourage players to group in larger ships to survive. Right now, the sloop is just a convenient boat to sail and queue into as you mentioned. It's agility isn't particularly important in the boarding meta and has been undermined by harpoons. It still has it's strengths, such as it's ability to be saved from the edge of sinking by a solo player, but these strengths don't matter much unless a player is alive (something difficult to do on a sloop in PVP situations and particularly solo against larger crews).

@galactic-geek bro, why you gotta be so toxic? You are always just immediately shooting down any idea someone has with “false” or “you are wrong.” The fact of the matter is, from some one who frequently plays on a galleon crew, a sloop does not stand a chance against a galleon.

Now before you come back with some smart aleck comment “oh i sink galleons on a sloop all the time.” I’m sure you do, because most people in this game are very unskilled. However, if two boats that are the same skill level are fighting each other, on a galleon and the other a sloop, the sloop isn’t going to win very often.

Now I’m not necessarily arguing that the sloop should win against a good galleon crew, but it used to be more balanced when the skill gap was higher.

@renegadeferret1 As someone who mostly galleons, and has been party to some pretty bad sloop massacres, I agree with you (and apologies).

Sloop could be boosted in four ways:

Speed. Simply make it faster when close-hauled or on a beam reach, so it's harder to catch.

Maneuverability. Make the Sloop squirrlier. Give it a super quick anchor raise so it can do stunning, hairpin 180 turns.

Stealth. Make it the only ship with a lowerable mast. Give it a shorter hull and let it sit a little lower in the water. Make it quieter on the waves. In short, give Sloopers the ability to either go really fast, or go slow and hard to spot on the horizon. In a sloop you should be able to round an island, glide up to a galleon, deposit a powder keg, then push off before anyone notices.

2-ship armadas. I like @CaliCorsairCat's suggestion. What about making it easier for Sloops to look-for-alliances? Make it possible for Sloops (and only Sloops) to group up across great distances and share similar quests. It'd be amazing to be in a Galleon, beating up on a Sloop, and then suddenly a second Sloop swoops to their rescue. And 2 Reaper Sloops should have no problem sinking a Galleon.

Heck, implement all 4 of these and make Sloops the best option for stealth/speed play! Sounds rad.

@enf0rcer What's wrong with giving the sloop additional advantages? It's by far the most underpowered ship in the game. Giving it some boosts could also cut down on the number of players begging for PVE servers.

The idea that the sloop is underpowered is simply wrong. A two-person sloop is the best ship in the game. Whether I’m solo on a sloop or with my crew on a brigantine, I’d rather go up against a galleon any day than a good duo sloop team. I can outrun a galleon all day long.

The ships of Sea of Thieves are balanced very well. There’s always room for minor tweaking, but the gap is not great. Statements referring to the sloop as “underpowered” are hyperbolic, at best.

Statements referring to the sloop as “underpowered” are hyperbolic, at best.

@Genuine-Heather
As a 4-player galleon, my crew demolishes sloops.
As a 2-player sloop, we get our hats fed to us most of the time.

I'm sure there are skilled players such as yourself who handle Sloops well. But in my experience, Sloops are underpowered. And everyone on these forums who complains about griefing, or begs for PVE... they are all sailing Sloops. I've yet to see a 4-man galleon complain about Sloops harassing and spawn camping them. Most of the community echoes @RenegadeFerret1's assessment.

@Comrade-Molly

You have the wrong conception of what a sloop is for.

You're telling me what a Sloop is for, but I'm brainstorming with @RenegadeFerret1 what a Sloop could be. I know what a Sloop is for. I've solo slooped plenty. It's not very fun; by far the worst way to experience SoT. Heading back to an outpost every five minutes to cash in a goblet isn't fun or rewarding. That's why people are on here constantly complaining about Sloops. I think there's room for improving that experience, and so do many, many others.

An equally skilled sloop and galleon aren't meant to be a match for each other.

I agree and I'm not proposing that they should be. A galleon will always be able to out-tank, out-gun, and outlast a Sloop. I'm just suggesting boosting Sloop's limited advantages to give solo sloopers an occasional shot at taking down a Galleon using stealth, speed, and sheer moxie.

@enf0rcer

Putting everything aside from balnce issues and the like. At the core this game was designed as a Co-op experiance the tools and feature created are frist and foremost to promote cooraporation and teamwork therefore giving any direct handicap to solo or duo diminishes the reward of skilled co-op play.

Totally! And you can do this, and also make it so Galleons don't cut through Sloops like hot knives through butter.

Giving it some boosts could also cut down on the number of players begging for PVE servers.

This is speculative at best. From my interactions the PvE server crowd don't want to improve or interact with other ships they simply want a single player or co-op only adventure game

Agree that it is speculative. And you are probably right that some players would love SoT to be a single person adventure game. But there are also a lot of people, like OP, who are legitimately annoyed at the Sloop play experience. Which, having done myself, I can empathize with. It pales in comparison to playing on a Brig or a Galleon. If Rare doesn't want to incentivize solo or duo play, why not get rid of the Sloop entirely and focus on making Looking For Crew better so everyone gets a premiere SoT experience?

@enf0rcer

Once agian to me Galleons sink much easier then sloops.

Sounds like you are on servers where Sloops rule the seas with impunity while Galleons hide cowering in ports. That has not been my experience.

How can one give a handicap to less players while not also dimishing advantage of skilled co-op play?

You can give solo/duo players a boost without erasing the advantage larger groups currently have.

You seem to not be aware of this, and i hate to be the one to tell you, but Rare Never intended there to be any other ship then the Galleon. It was the Community that rejected this limitation. So agian if want to blame someone you can blame/thank the Community.

I don't want to blame anyone; I want to find solutions that make the game better for everyone. And what I hear on these forums is that Sloop sailors are disgruntled and need help. And I get it, solo slooping is a grind. It's too bad, I don't think it has to be.

@enf0rcer

You can give solo/duo players a boost without erasing the advantage larger groups currently have.

I don't see how you would need to elaborate and state your case.

If you truly believe the Sloop is more powerful than the Galleon, then there is no case for adding more power to the Sloop.

@enf0rcer

Still i'm not sure what you meant by given a smaller crew a boost without the impacting the avantage of a large crew?
Regaurdless if in my opinion the sloop is better. I hate to say more powerful cause that implies firepower but instead more suited to pirating.

ok, so it sounds like you might agree that the Galleon at least has more firepower than the Sloop? I don't know how you'd make the argument that 1 gun and a smaller hull is more powerful than 4 guns.

So you say the Sloop is "better suited to pirating." Can I assume you mean the sloop is stealthier and more maneuverable, and therefore better for sneaking in and thieving loot? Or do you have a different definition?

I'd be curious to know how much the average Sloop player makes per hour in-game vs the average Galleon player. I'm sure Rare has metrics on this.

@prescafatty said in The Slow Nerfing of Sloops:

Statements referring to the sloop as “underpowered” are hyperbolic, at best.

@Genuine-Heather
As a 4-player galleon, my crew demolishes sloops.
As a 2-player sloop, we get our hats fed to us most of the time.

I'm sure there are skilled players such as yourself who handle Sloops well. But in my experience, Sloops are underpowered. And everyone on these forums who complains about griefing, or begs for PVE... they are all sailing Sloops. I've yet to see a 4-man galleon complain about Sloops harassing and spawn camping them. Most of the community echoes @RenegadeFerret1's assessment.

People who come to the forums begging for PvE are not usually experienced players. They haven't put in the time or effort to learn enough about the game to be able to avoid getting ganked. It has nothing to do with the type of ship they're on. The fault is not with the mighty sloop. The fault is with the players.

The old "sloop vs. galleon" comparison is the absolute worst way to try to frame the argument that sloops are underpowered. A sloop can outrun a galleon almost every time with a little strategy. Execute a maneuver or two and sail straight off into the wind, and the galleon will fall far behind. When it comes to combat, nothing fills with water faster than a galleon. It takes at least two people to save a sinking galleon, leaving only two people to maneuver and fight. A skilled gunner on a sloop can wreak havoc on a galleon while staying out of the galleon's broadside, nullifying its advantage. If I'm sailing a sloop, I'd rather fight a galleon than any other full-manned ship.

But then there's another problem that others have addressed. Even if we accept the idea that a sloop is "underpowered", isn't that exactly how it should be? Should a two-person sloop be equal or better than a mighty galleon?

Let's say they made the sloop the fastest ship in the game in all circumstances. How can you imagine that wouldn't be grossly overpowered? The sloop is already a powerful vessel in the right hands. If it could outrun other ships, as well...it would be insanely unbalanced. Imagine the forums after a week or two of that. Everybody would be complaining about getting ganked by griefers on overpowered sloops. The PvP folks would be complaining they had zero chance of catching the new sloops. Nobody would be happy. The balance would be seriously upset and the game would spiral into crisis.

Folks need to think these things through. I'm okay with small adjustments to overall balance, but faster sloops? That's a firm no.

@enf0rcer
I'm going to piggy back and elaborate a bit on your statements, you may even agree a bit.

@Prescafatty This is directed at you though

If you truly believe the Sloop is more powerful than the Galleon, then there is no case for adding more power to the Sloop.

The problem I am seeing here is that your issue doesn't lie with the sloop itself, but the problem is the number. Unfortunately, that is something that no game can fix. Can you name me a single game where 1/2 vs. 4 is on an equal playing field? Any attempts to buff the solo/duos and you break the game balance. I can't think of a single game that has accomplished this without giving unfair advantages.

ok, so it sounds like you might agree that the Galleon at least has more firepower than the Sloop? I don't know how you'd make the argument that 1 gun and a smaller hull is more powerful than 4 guns.

What I and maybe Enforcer means about the strength of the sloops is its player to ship ratio. Stick with me, the sloops strength is the amount of effort and time it takes to maintain and operate a sloop. One player can accomplish absolutely more on sloop compared to the other ships. This includes, sail adjustments, anchor, damage 2.0 repairs, and including of mobility. This is not even remotely close to the ratio for a Galleon. It takes multiple people to accomplish a similar feat on a Galleon. A Galleon will have a tougher time dealing with a hole than a sloop. I mean look at the process. Sloop has a small distance to travel with planks stored right where the worst holes will open and one can bucket a sloop with as much speed as the animation allows. Can the Galleon say the same? They have to travel 3 decks just to bail, planks aren't stored near the problematic holes. The Galleon crew has to double up on players to bail and repair, because one player can't accomplish the same amount as a sloop can. By these metrics alone, a sloop has a giant advantage. Just seeing more cannons is somewhat narrow minded in thinking. Also the current META relies on interrupting repairs, Galleons can reach a point of no return quicker than what a sloop can. 2 players on a sloop can repair a sloop that has every hole imaginable open. Galleon can't say the same.

I firmly believe that had it been possible to 4 man a sloop, the veteran players would flock to it. Imagine how broken that would be?

Now your problem lies in how that Galleon is engaging on you, they simple are overwhelming you at the player level. You are getting jumped and boarded, and now they are using their advantage of numbers to win the fight. There is nothing that can be done about this, as said earlier, numbers will always have an advantage against smaller ships. You see this in any sandbox game like Rust and Ark. The only known way to remove player number advantage is to bring in numbers of your own, which seems you refuse to do. Even though, you have a myriad of Rare provided tools to solve this issue.

I'd be curious to know how much the average Sloop player makes per hour in-game vs the average Galleon player. I'm sure Rare has metrics on this.

The number would be interesting, but there is no question it would be an extremily large gap. 4 players can accomplish more than what 1/2 players can. 4 players have an easier time tackling the larger, and by extension more rewarding, task.