Incentivizing PvP

@crimsontifical I wish they would decrease server quantity and increase population on each server (quality). "Quality over Quantity". I have played almost every day since Beta, it's just not the same anymore. Is it an estimated 6 ships per server? If that is the case the world is WAY to big for only 6 ships. It would be fun to be in a server of 16-20 ships with multiple battles going on.

@crimsontifical See I am always in DR and I NEVER see ships. I have reasoning behind that as well but that is a whole new post I wont get into. People play this game because it is unique with the open world pve/pvp. There isn't a game like that anywhere. Now they are adding an arena (which I like) but I feel like they are adding a Call of Duty game within an open world experience.

@crimsontifical times have changed my friend lol But yes I like the Arena, however, I feel like they need to add PvP incentive elements to their open world game as well. Can't wait until it come out! There isn't anything to do anymore lol

@i-c-h-a-p-i Any incentive for players to hunt down any other player will generally hurt the game in the long run. People already complain as it is about being hunted down and sunk.

There is a community that just want to PvE period. Even if there are incentives they just don't want to PvP. In the end will demand for a PvE server if your changes are implemented.

Now I love PvP, but you need to change up your views on how to help PvP. Bounty system is a great idea and everyone has said so since even before the release of the game so if they can ever get it balanced and implemented I'm all for it, but lets look at your other idea.

Quests for sinking other players. What this does is makes a whole series of people being hunted down. Again angry carebear mob from the PvE side will not like this. So instead of incentivising PvP through strict player interactions, it would better to instead have more instances of the Skull Forts but different types.

Open world events that yield incredible rewards but everyone knows where it is and can participate if they want to. Before the skelly ships, PvP happend at almost every fort, especially cause of server hopping. Skelly ships is now a play holder and if its not completed a fort won't spawn which means forts are not up anymore generally since no one wants to do skelly ships, so no PvP.

Generally speaking its better to implement events where people have a chance to fight each other for the rewards. Strict Player hunting won't help, but having events where players fight over the loot would be exponentially better.

@xultanis-dragon said in Incentivizing PvP:

@i-c-h-a-p-i Any incentive for players to hunt down any other player will generally hurt the game in the long run. People already complain as it is about being hunted down and sunk.

There is a community that just want to PvE period. Even if there are incentives they just don't want to PvP. In the end will demand for a PvE server if your changes are implemented

Quests for sinking other players. What this does is makes a whole series of people being hunted down. Again angry carebear mob from the PvE side will not like this. So instead of incentivising PvP through strict player interactions, it would better to instead have more instances of the Skull Forts but different types.

But incentivising PvP doesn't necessarily mean "making non-PvPr's PvP against their will..."

I see incentivising PvP as making PvP attractive and tempting to non-PvP players. So, for instance...

Rather than a bounty system that could put a price on ANYONE'S head, you make it so the bounty is put on overly aggressive PvPr's heads.

The PvPr's want to PvP. The PvEr's don't, and likely won't. The challenge is to get them to put aside their pacifism and take up arms. Avenge their past injustices on a pirate that deserves his comeuppance.

So you make the bounty system such that aggressive PvPr's who regularly kill and sink, become very lucrative targets of bounties. Then non-PvPr's will see there's a bounty on "Nasty Dan: the dastardly, who has sunk way too many ships, and killed way too many pirates for his own and everyone elses good, and therefore a bounty will be offered to track him down and give him his just desserts."

This way non-PvPr's don't have to concern themselvces so much about being hunted down by "unfair or unwarranted" bounties, and PvPr's can still sink and kill to their hearts content, and it too will be rewarded by even more PvP brought his way once he has a bounty on his head. The PvPr's get what they want. And there's incentive for the non-PvPr to get his revenge, and make some gold in the process.

So the PvP king can have his cake and eat it too.

@starship42 First let me clarify what I was saying in the hopes that you just misunderstood and did not just glance over my reply.

I'm all for the bounty system. I have always loved the idea of a bounty system for this game and if anyone has any good ideas that could be implemented than that would be awesome. Has to be careful because systems like these have a tendency to be abused or completely circumvented by the player base.

Next, strictly forcing PvP is not going to get a PvE player out of their shell. Instead it is going to alienate them even more. "Reward for sinking 10 player ships." Then the PvP'er goes out and tries to sink a ship and he sees 1 ship and sinks it over and over and over. That ship is full of people who just want to PvE and now you have just forced them out of the game because there are rewards in place to go after PvE players. You might see is as an incentive to PvP, but the PvE community will see it as an incentive to go after them. Lets face it, for completion of any reward that requires us to sink other players we will go after the PvE community since it is the quickest way to complete those quests. The PvE community will do what they always do to completely those quests, get together and with one another's permission sink each other till they have the requirements fulfilled.

@starship42 said in Incentivizing PvP:

But incentivising PvP doesn't necessarily mean "making non-PvPr's PvP against their will..."

I see incentivising PvP as making PvP attractive and tempting to non-PvP players. So, for instance...

Rather than a bounty system that could put a price on ANYONE'S head, you make it so the bounty is put on overly aggressive PvPr's heads.

The PvPr's want to PvP. The PvEr's don't, and likely won't. The challenge is to get them to put aside their pacifism and take up arms. Avenge their past injustices on a pirate that deserves his comeuppance.

So you make the bounty system such that aggressive PvPr's who regularly kill and sink, become very lucrative targets of bounties. Then non-PvPr's will see there's a bounty on "Nasty Dan: the dastardly, who has sunk way too many ships, and killed way too many pirates for his own and everyone elses good, and therefore a bounty will be offered to track him down and give him his just desserts."

This way non-PvPr's don't have to concern themselvces so much about being hunted down by "unfair or unwarranted" bounties, and PvPr's can still sink and kill to their hearts content, and it too will be rewarded by even more PvP brought his way once he has a bounty on his head. The PvPr's get what they want. And there's incentive for the non-PvPr to get his revenge, and make some gold in the process.

So the PvP king can have his cake and eat it too.

Now I want to discuss your view on what an incentive for the PvE ship would be. You are suggesting that if an aggressive ship that went after them over and over again would get a bounty and now in turn would incentivize the PvE ship to turn around and try to get revenge? Your view is unfortunately biased. If a PvE ship has been hunted or notices that a ship on the server has a high bounty they are going to leave the server because they know if that ship see's them they are going to leave and go to another server.

You incentivize them by making PvE Events where they can choose to go and possibly fight it out with another ship that might or might not be there, or decide to stay back and use that opportunity, where everyone is fighting over the Event, and do what they want to.

I've been in a lot of hardcore PvP games and I'll let you know that a lot of the PvE community does not want to get out of their shell. Some people have a hard time physically and emotionally when it comes to PvP. I've had friends have anxiety attacks because of the adrenaline rush of PvP while others just don't have the physical aptitude for PvP.

If we make quests that hunt them down then we won't have a ground to stand on when defending why they are having a bad time.

EDIT Also your bounty system has a lot of flaws in it. So you need to rework your idea. If you want to know what flaws I think you have I will let you know. This post is already long so I'll end it here.

@xultanis-dragon This game is open world PvE/PvP not just PvE. They have to develop both spectrums. If the game was strictly PvE, a lot of players would leave this game hands down.

@i-c-h-a-p-i True enough, but this game had PvPvE ideals. The concept was to gather treasure and protect your treasure, or go out and steal other peoples treasure, or fight other people for the treasure.

Making a strict PvP concept isn't within the ideals. But making an event for people to go and fight is more in their ball park and honestly a better idea overall.

Case in point this is one of my concepts Lets say they have an event where there are 3 map pieces in the world. The pieces glow as you get close other another piece. When you gather all the pieces you get map that shows you where a chest/skull/merchant item is worth 20k. However, that map now has created a beacon in the sky alerting the whole server that you have completed the map. You can't hide it because now there is a beacon in the sky. The map glows crazy in the water and it does not sink. So a completed map has to be completed.

Now what do you think the server will try to do with a map that leads to a treasure of 20k?? :):). Doesn't have to be something exactly like this but you get what I'm saying right?

Making something for people to fight over is a lot better than asking for rewards where the PvE community is going to suffer the most.

@xultanis-dragon said in Incentivizing PvP:

...strictly forcing PvP is not going to get a PvE player out of their shell. Instead it is going to alienate them even more. "Reward for sinking 10 player ships." Then the PvP'er goes out and tries to sink a ship and he sees 1 ship and sinks it over and over and over. That ship is full of people who just want to PvE and now you have just forced them out of the game because there are rewards in place to go after PvE players. You might see is as an incentive to PvP, but the PvE community will see it as an incentive to go after them. Lets face it, for completion of any reward that requires us to sink other players we will go after the PvE community since it is the quickest way to complete those quests. The PvE community will do what they always do to completely those quests, get together and with one another's permission sink each other till they have the requirements fulfilled.

Okay... not sure you've understood what I said. I haven't suggested anything of what you described above. Perhaps rereading my post will help clarify my point for you.

You continue : "If a PvE ship has been hunted or notices that a ship on the server has a high bounty they are going to leave the server because they know if that ship see's them they are going to leave and go to another server.".

This is indeed possible. That may happen. Or they may decide to just continue to play PvE and remain extra cautious, taking heart in the knowledge that a bounty is out for that aggressor. But some on that same server may be tempted by the bounty too. Certainly those who love to PvP and are good at it, may be willing to take on the bounty. So once again, the PvE player can ignore the bounty and do what he likes to do, knowing someone may take up the challenge. It may not happen, but now he can play knowing an aggressive PvP'r has a bounty on his head. Without that bounty, the PvE player will simply continue to be accosted by the PvP'r, and he may be forced to change servers.

You continue: "You incentivize them by making PvE Events where they can choose to go and possibly fight it out with another ship that might or might not be there, or decide to stay back and use that opportunity, where everyone is fighting over the Event, and do what they want to."

Indeed. That sounds like a possibility too. Yet even so, one can incentivize PvP without a secondary activity or goal. I see no reason why a bounty on overly aggressive players wouldn't ultimately work, for both the aggressive players, who want to fight, and the ones who just want to PvE. It at least helps mitigate both interests.

Those who want to avoid confrontation no matter what now have something to help in their favour. Players can choose to raise the Reaper's Flag, or not. Player's can also choose to PvP mercilessly... all the while understanding they may eventually get a bounty on their heads. A PvE'r won't get a bounty on their heads because they won't be attacking other players, so they have nothing to worry about.

You continue: " EDIT Also your bounty system has a lot of flaws in it. So you need to rework your idea. If you want to know what flaws I think you have I will let you know."

I haven't proposed a complete bounty system. My only suggestion was that whatever type of bounty system was implemented, that it be one where one of the parameters might be that PvP'rs whom are overly aggressive become the hunted ones. Of course over aggression would have to be defined and established by the devs. I wasn't suggesting this one aspect as a finished final bounty concept. It could be modified as Rare sees fit.

However, please, I welcome your criticisms.

@starship42 You are completely right. I did infact misread your earlier post. I thought you were agreeing with the making "Reward for sinking 10 players" idea. My apologies, you were strictly talking about the addition of something to promote PvP through something like a bounty system or similar. Again my apologies.

My views on PvP are as follows hopefully this will re establish are positions easier

Fighting over loot.

I'm okay with PvPing with other ships just for the sake of PvP but that happens so rarely that I don't ever actually look for it. Also its almost a waste of time since nothing is on the line. People will fight but its different type of feel when loot is on the line.

So in my opinion when it comes to a bounty system is that I want one. I always wanted a bounty system. However implementing is very difficult. Especially for this type of game. I've been racking my brain for months trying to figure it out and have determined 2 things. For a true bounty system to be possible the game would have to run on 1 server which for this game is not possible, the 2nd thing is that death tax would have to be implemented somehow to stop abuse of the system. So far I can not get around those 2 factors. Trust me those factors are almost absolute. Any idea anyone can come up with I can come up with an easy solution for abuse when those 2 factors are not present.

Your thoughts good sir.

@x-crowheart-x They will all end up like that unfortunately. Any commendation that involves 2 seperate crews will end up with "hey I need this commendation." Lets face it, some people are just really not all that good at PvP and they would feel left out if there was a commendation that they felt like they couldn't get.

The other idea of commendations for stealing peoples loots is a possibility but again you are heavily targeting the PvE community. PvE community already believes pirating to be greifing, even though its not, they still believe it with all their might. So implementing anything that would cause a focus to shift from fighting for loot to sinking for loot to get accommodations would cause a big uproar because we will target those PvE players. We have some mean people out in the community. They will hunt a ton of people and if the person they are about to sink doesn't have loot, well fine lets help them get some loot, then break the alliance and sink them anyways for the commendations.......honestly I would love to do that lol, but again the PvE community would go crazy mad and it would hurt the game in the long run because of it.

I thought it over and the only real way to promote PvP in this type of game is to create something that multiple people will want and have them fight over it. Its the best way to implement this because it has the possibility of both sides PvP and PvE participating while completely ignoring those that don't want to participate.

@br0crastinat0r said in Incentivizing PvP:

There should be no incentive to pvp beyond your free will to do so. It is supposed to be “organic” natural. If you feel bloodthirsty, go and attack someone. If you just want to steal, Be cleaver about it. No one is stopping you from Being more pirate. I have no problem defending my self from would be pirates. Just don’t force me to pvp for meaningless title or commendations.

People that want to PvP are going to do so whether not there are incentives or not. So why does it matter to have a few quests like that? No one would be forcing you to PvP you just wouldn't reap the rewards lol. What do you think the Arena is going to do? It'll force you to PvP if you want the loot and the rep to unlock new customizations. All I am asking is to bring it to the open world as well. If you can defend your ship then you shouldn't have a problem then lol

@br0crastinat0r I don't think you understand what I am saying but ok lol

@starship42 exactly... kind of like the Division PvP. If you kill another player it flags you as dangerous and puts a high price on your head. That would be neat.

@surveyorpete That is why I suggested if a ship sinks maybe the anchor or the wheel of that ship can be brought back to your ship to turn in accrediting the kill. Kind of like "kill confirmed"

@surveyorpete kinda like the achievements? lol A lot of stuff is cheesable in this game

@i-c-h-a-p-i We already have people sinking ships for no reason. So, now add a reason to just sink someones ship to just sail off and not even look or care if they have treasure. I have been caught off guard once or twice just to watch my ship sink while on land and the other ship just sails off. No, we don't need voyages to just sink people.

@kondrites Quest or no quest people are still going to sink you lol.

PvE-focused players have held the game hostage, which is why it's getting the Arena mode which will reduce world-PvP to the point of killing it.

Suggestions like this, to reward world-PvP and make it more extrinsically engaging have been made since day-1 and the only reason such very simple suggestions(much simpler than a whole new game mode) have not been entertained by Rare is because they're listening to the more vocal PvE players.

@br0crastinat0r said in Incentivizing PvP:

@i-c-h-a-p-i “ Quest or no quest people are still going to sink you lol.” Exactly. So why do we need a quest for it?

For another rep vender so they add more stuff? lol this game is boring without pvp