Sword Combat Balancing - In Depth Review/Feedback

  • Swefoo
    Master
    Insider

    First things first
    First off would like to start by saying I wanted to voice my opinion about this before it launched, however didn't find enough time to actually make a post, so here I am. I'm known in the PvP community for my swordplay, so I thought it'd be fitting that I voice my opinion/experiences with what the current update has offered. I also took my time to play for a bit this update to see how much sword has gotten affected; I tried it before I complained about it, and now I'm going to point out the flaws.

    The first issue I'd like to address is the stun. A feature as we all know of slashing someone with a sword is that it would stun them for a certain amount of time - specifically it would stun them for 0.5 seconds (before this patch). Currently the sword stun only lasts 0.2 seconds, pretty much nonexistent in this current update. I would like to point out why this change was actually a bad change when Rare attempted to "balance" the sword.

    Speaking in terms of when stun was 0.5 seconds
    With the stun ability of the sword when you slashed someone, it would punish them for making a mistake in the game, whether it was a bad judgement call or simply bad movement. In sword duels, if you were to be stunned, it would punish you for your mistake to where the match is now in your opponent's favor. Now because of this, it made me a better swordsman, as well as others too. The stun allowed you to learn from your mistakes and either be more cautious with how you approach your opponent, or allow you to be more aggressive with your movement.
    Now that it's not 0.5 seconds anymore and 0.2 seconds (again, basically nonexistent), you do not get punished as much for your mistakes, rather it feels more like a slap on the wrist for messing up, rather than having you die, which is how it should be. Even if you got caught in a stun, you could get out of it as well, and that comes from practicing your movement as well as situational game sense.

    The stun was also the only thing keeping a sword fight vs a double gun fight fair. How you might ask? If I were to run sword, and my opponent were to run sniper and blunderbuss, my goal is to get close to them to try to get them in a stun lock, and therefore favor the fight on me. However, if they are running blunder, they could also one shot me if I am a close enough distance, and they could also knock me back. When you had someone locked down in a stun, it was a 50/50 on whether or not they could land their blunderbuss shot on you. How it is now (with the 0.2 second stun lock), you barely even get stunned, you can easily get out of a sword slash, and easily favor the fight onto yourself.

    Speaking in terms of how stun is now (0.2 seconds)
    The meta now is double gun, you will rarely see any of the good / competitive players running swords anymore. If you look at streamers as well, even a majority of them have switched to double gun since this patch. It's because they understand how terrible the decision was (no offense) to reduce the stun lock. Now this may just be a coincidence and you might say "but I like the stun how it is now!" but all I have to say to that is to look at the meta now. Sword used to be the most viable weapon choice, as it's one of the most versatile weapons and could be used in 1 vs 4 situations, even if you didn't use the lunge ability and only slashed (yes you can 1 v 4 galleons with slashing only, and good crews as well not just bot crews). You really need to rethink here Rare, I understand the process of trial and error, and I really hope that this is the case here, because you have made an error to where the majority of players who take this game competitively in any way have switched to double guns. I'm sure many have also experienced bad hit registration in the game, even with swords.
    When the stun was 0.5 seconds, you were able to see whether or not your hit registered if the opponent got stunned or not. Now that the stun is basically nonexistent you don't even know whether your hit landed on them. Hit registration itself however is a whole other issue that I'd rather not talk about much in this post.

    Stow/Unstow "exploit" (X cancel, Double X technique, animation cancelling, etc)
    Before I go on, would like to define what a lock down is as we proceed to the rest of this post. A lock down is when you are able to constantly slash someone, without letting them escape (to a certain degree) here's a video example of me performing the lockdown on a streamer and good friend of mine named Sparbucks when we were doing sword duels:

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    Recently there was a clip which I'm sure a lot of you have seen online about a certain player cheating in the Sea of Champions Arena tournament. This individual used the stow/unstow exploit, but used a macro to make his slashes even faster, abnormally fast. I believe because of this clip going around, it was brought to Rare's attention to "fix" this. To do so, they added another new animation / delay to the sword so that when you equip it, it makes the animation of you unsheathing your sword. Here is my take on this:

    The Stow/Unstow technique was used to reset your slashes as well as use it as a "feint" mechanic. Rare unintentionally added another mechanic into the game, feinting, which was as you might know of as the "Stow/Unstow exploit." I understand that Rare likes to tend to casuals a lot, and loves to be Sea of Friends rather than Sea of Thieves with some of their PvE content updates, but taking away X cancelling technique has brought down the skill gap of sword users even more. It seems as if every update Rare tries to balance the combat, they end up adding more animations, more delays, and more bugs. For instance, currently there is an ADS bug where your gun will be scoped in even if you are not holding your ADS key. It goes the same with swords for blocking, where your sword will stay blocking even if you are not holding your block button down.
    The Stow/Unstow technique was probably the only feature in this game that made the sword more fun to use. It allowed you to circle around your opponents if you had them in a lock down, and allowed you to be very versatile and agile when using the technique. I understand Rare removed it because they saw how a macro can be used to exploit the technique to inhumane speeds of slashing. However, there's your problem right there - macros.

    The individual that was abusing this technique in the Sea of Champions tournament was using a macro in order to do so. You cannot achieve that speed of slashing without using a macro to cheat. Instead of creating a macro detection in the game, you add more delays and animations to an already clunky weapon in a clunky combat system. Minecraft servers are able to create multiple multiple autoclicker / macro detections. I know this because I played Minecraft for 6+ years and helped come up with the logic for a few of these macro checks. However, the very first couple of checks that would be implemented before any advance auto clicker detection methods would be a CPS checker (clicks per second checker) to see if you click inhumanely at speeds such as 30 CPS or more, and the second method would be a consistency check - checking how consistent you are with your clicks. If Minecraft servers can create detections for macros and auto clickers, I'm sure Rare can as well in Unreal Engine.
    It's not like you're detecting for Aimbot/Triggerbot/Smooth Aimbot, where you need to account for the complexity of the water simulation in the game, or use advanced math such as Calculus to come up with the logic behind detecting things such as aimbot, or even account for their yaw/pitch - you are implementing a detection method for MACROS, which are always consistent no matter how much someone tries to randomize it. Macros repeat the same pattern over, hence why they can be detected.

    You removed the Stow/Unstow technique by adding more animations, when really you could've added a macro detection instead, which would solve more than half of your problems when it comes to cheaters. It would wipe out anyone who uses the same type of macro the player in the Sea of Champions tournament used, it would detect half of the players who claim to be good with double gunning by banning their macro they have set up to double gun; it would solve more than half of the "exploits" people use within this game because they would be banned for cheating. Animation cancelling has been popular in so many games such as Overwatch, League of Legends, as well as others. A perfect example is the game "Mount & Blade: Warband" where animation cancelling was envied if you knew how to do it properly, and was used in official tournaments held by the game developers as well.
    While it may seem like an exploit, it was a mechanic that allowed a player to utilize its advantages in order to improve their movement, their offense, and even their defense. You could feint your attacks, and you could even stop your second slash midway in order to reset back to your first slash. It introduced a new way to play the game and made using a cutlass more enjoyable. Now with this patch, the skill gap has been lowered even more and the only thing setting you apart from another sword user would be your movement, not your style of attacking or anything at all. I understand tending to casuals, but lowering the skill gap even more to where a brainless noob can kill someone who's more experienced is just absurd.

    We love your game Rare, but sometimes with some of these combat changes you make, it gets harder to actually hop on this game and enjoy the PvP.

    The sword was at its absolute best over a year and a half ago, when your slashes would slow you down, and when experienced players knew how to have full speed on the first slash as well, even if their last 2 slashes slowed them down. At this point in time the sword was balanced, as even if you missed a hit, your movement would be slowed. This, along with the Stow/Unstow animation made it a pretty balanced weapon. Any changes after that have been unnecessary and have made the sword more clunky, and less skill based.

    I of course welcome all criticism and feedback and would love to have a civilized debate if anyone is against any of the points I've made. I can't really think of anything else at the moment, but if something comes to mind then I'll be sure to either edit this post or create a new reply with what comes to mind. Thank you for taking the time to read this (if you did) and I hope that we as a community can get a response on this.

    EDIT:
    An alternative to the Stow/Unstow animation cancelling, which can help decrease the "clunkiness" of the sword combat
    Another reason that people had utilized the Stow/Unstow animation was because of how you had the ability to have instant movement after you cancelled the animation. Currently how the sword is, you have to do all 3 of your slashes in order to regain movement, and that too after a small cooldown. If you were to try and move again after your first/second slash (by moving, I specifically mean sprinting), you are unable to do so until the animation for your sword swing has completely ended, with another second wait in between (and time really matters here, an example of how much time matters is the 0.5 second stun reduced to 0.2 seconds, making it almost nonexistent. Every delay matters).

    What I propose is to allow sword users to have instant movement after their first two swings, and the final 3rd slash could be a trade-off. The reason we used the Stow/Unstow animation cancelling was also because we did not want to knock our opponents back after our 3rd slash; we wanted to keep them locked in place so that we could continue our combos on them until they died, or countered us. Allowing us to have instant movement after the first 2 slashes would allow us to create distance, but also re-introduce the "feint" mechanic into the game, which was originally used via Stow/Unstow animation cancelling. Allowing sword users to have instant movement after the first 2 slashes eliminates the desire to even have the Stow/Unstow exploit within the game. I believe this, along with increasing the stun back to how it was before, would cause the influx of sword users who switched to double gun, switch back to sword again.

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  • REA 1am
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    We've got us a truer here boys

  • ViperishEmu2992
    Marauder

    Or Rare could just remove the ability to carry a second gun and balancing combat might finally be within their grasp?

    After 1 1/2 years combat is still an "issue" (ergo your post). Obviously Rare have bitten off more than they can chew? 1-Gun would make their lives a lot easier. At the moment there are 6 weapon combo's to balance. 1-Gun would reduce this to 3. Rare's challenge just got 50% easier!

    Sometimes the easiest solutions are the best.

  • Swefoo
    Master
    Insider

    @viperishemu2992 said in Sword Combat Balancing - In Depth Review/Feedback:

    Or Rare could just remove the ability to carry a second gun and balancing combat might finally be within their grasp?

    After 1 1/2 years combat is still an "issue" (ergo your post). Obviously Rare have bitten off more than they can chew? 1-Gun would make their lives a lot easier. At the moment there are 6 weapon combo's to balance. 1-Gun would reduce this to 3. Rare's challenge just got 50% easier!

    Sometimes the easiest solutions are the best.

    The problem is Rare has stated before (and correct me if I’m wrong) that they will not be making the sword a mandatory weapon, and wish to allow players the freedom to run double guns.

  • Eridorr
    Master
    Insider

    I agree with everything you have said, If it were not for yourself and other cutlass players in the community that have helped share such a fun and innovative way to play cutlass I wouldn't have had the fun and passion behind the weapon that I did. You came up with and molded such a fun and creative way to play sword & showed it's true potential & skill of the cutlass which felt so rewarding not only to me but surely the entire SoT community that was a competitive cutlass player.

    I accepted the sword lunge cool down changes even though I didn't want to (like I REALLY didn't want to lol) but it happened. Then came this change which honestly made me feel hopeless for the weapon...( I mean no offense RARE I am not trying to shine negative light on you). These changes with the sword have really killed any real skill or competitive game play using the weapon. I also have been using the cutlass for hours both on insiders and live and I feel like I keep trying to better myself with it but it just doesn't work it's so inconsistent and unrewarding to fight people with now...

    I've pretty much lost all enjoyment in the one weapon that myself and MANY others have been so passionate about and stood behind even when metas weren't exactly always in our favor (especially more so in a competitive sense ) but it's just gotten to the point where it's not a fun weapon to play anymore....and the worst part is I feel like it took one player to macro a sword swing to ruin it for everyone and how that person is allowed to remain in the game along with other macro users is beyond me...I would agree that implementing a macro detection of some sort along with some kind of anti cheat software (for other things of course) could really help SoT move in the right direction and kill the whole hacker/cheater mentality that a lot of casual players seem to have...

    I know I keep going back to it and it might sound cliche but so many players had a deep passion behind the weapon and now it's gone...I can't really be on board with this kind of sword play and I REALLY hope that the sword sees some positive light & heads in the right direction so that we as players can feel fun/rewarding combat with it again...

    You want players to have an equal playing field with equal tools ? fine, I am all for that but don't take away the time someone has spent into bettering themselves as a player it just doesn't make sense. So again a huge point of mine I can only be on board with the changes that took place if you were to implement a more well thought out rewarding sword play system.... but that frightens me because I don't want to wait months and months for that and I don't want it to be buggy and unplayable...I am just scared for the future of this game's combat and competitive vision. Please RARE let us help you more, be more vocal, connect with us, value more of the feedback you get from competitive players around the combat. Imo You guys have always done pretty dang amazing with ship to ship combat ( minus fire in arena imo lol) but I just hope we see some light at the tunnel with other aspects of your games combat.

    This game is an absolute gem in so many ways with so much potential in so many aspects and I think with the love and work focused into some of those other aspects it's going to bring a more fun experience for everyone. I know you have it in you guys to make the right choices.

    Again Ji6ran thank you for helping to mold such a creative, fun and innovative way to play the sword. RARE thank you for making such a beautiful game, lets get the sword where it needs to be!

  • REA 1am
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @viperishemu2992 removing double gun isn't a valid solution. You would alienate a large percent of the players and the combat would seem extremely forced and more clunky.

  • ViperishEmu2992
    Marauder

    @lanky-tentacles said in Sword Combat Balancing - In Depth Review/Feedback:

    @viperishemu2992 removing double gun isn't a valid solution. You would alienate a large percent of the players and the combat would seem extremely forced and more clunky.

    I'm not sure about that? If it meant that Rare had a better chance of finally balancing the weapons, combat might actually improve over-all?

    I agree that not having the double gun option would be a loss. But if it lead to well-balanced combat and an end to the never-ending complaints about combat it might be worth the sacrifice?

    More choices & wonky combat or Less choices & well-balanced combat. This is, obviously, assuming Rare could manage to balance 3 combo's. But since 6 combo's has so far eluded them why not give it a shot? I'd take that chance. If they still can't fix it then they can always re-introduce the double gun option after all!

  • QuietRobot
    Champion
    Insider
    Founder

    Personally I think reducing stun time is correct, for most users it meant a very frustrating (even losing) combat.
    There are good users in combat and others who also take advantage of the "faults" of the animations.

    I agree to add an anti-macro, yes!, also to not allow the double weapon and add an alternative (ax? daggers?) to the sword instead.

    firearms - 3 options
    white weapons - 2 or 3 options

  • Tart Tee
    Castaway

    @viperishemu2992 said in Sword Combat Balancing - In Depth Review/Feedback:

    @lanky-tentacles said in Sword Combat Balancing - In Depth Review/Feedback:

    @viperishemu2992 removing double gun isn't a valid solution. You would alienate a large percent of the players and the combat would seem extremely forced and more clunky.

    I'm not sure about that? If it meant that Rare had a better chance of finally balancing the weapons, combat might actually improve over-all?

    I agree that not having the double gun option would be a loss. But if it lead to well-balanced combat and an end to the never-ending complaints about combat it might be worth the sacrifice?

    More choices & wonky combat or Less choices & well-balanced combat. This is, obviously, assuming Rare could manage to balance 3 combo's. But since 6 combo's has so far eluded them why not give it a shot? I'd take that chance. If they still can't fix it then they can always re-introduce the double gun option after all!

    By more balanced you mean bad players have a much better chance vs good players? Because that’s exactly what removing DG would do.

    By sacrifice you must mean a large percent of the DG users quiting? Because that’s what removing Dg would do.

    I mean come on lol

  • Ragetrox
    Master
    Insider

    As a day 1 Sea of Thieves player, I agree with many of the statements on this tread. I fell in love with Sea of Thieves and as it changes with each update its combat identity is stripped without anything else taking its place. We understand wanting to correct exploits and bugs, but those things represent where players could find a skill gap. I'm waiting for a skill gap update where new mechanics are introduced into the game. I want to see moves that open up the possibilities and variety of combat. I never want to see double gunning disappear, but I also don't want to feel like this with the sword:

  • Zormis
    Marauder
    Insider

    @ji6ran said in Sword Combat Balancing - In Depth Review/Feedback:

    First things first
    The Stow/Unstow technique was used to reset your slashes as well as use it as a "feint" mechanic. Rare unintentionally added another mechanic into the game, feinting, which was as you might know of as the "Stow/Unstow exploit." I understand that Rare likes to tend to casuals a lot, and loves to be Sea of Friends rather than Sea of Thieves with some of their PvE content updates, but taking away X cancelling technique has brought down the skill gap of sword users even more. It seems as if every update Rare tries to balance the combat, they end up adding more animations, more delays, and more bugs. For instance, currently there is an ADS bug where your gun will be scoped in even if you are not holding your ADS key. It goes the same with swords for blocking, where your sword will stay blocking even if you are not holding your block button down.
    The Stow/Unstow technique was probably the only feature in this game that made the sword more fun to use. It allowed you to circle around your opponents if you had them in a lock down, and allowed you to be very versatile and agile when using the technique. I understand Rare removed it because they saw how a macro can be used to exploit the technique to inhumane speeds of slashing. However, there's your problem right there - macros.

    Well thought out feedback but I completely disagree with removing an exploit narrowed a skill gap. How is it skilled when only a certain % of the players knew about this exploit? It doesn't take skill to make a macro.

    When DG was a huge problem in the game I never ran with it. But to show my friend how it worked so they could defend against it, I made a macro in a couple of min and showed them how ridiculous it was.

    Also putting in a macro detection is a bit of a joke, the easier and correct fix was to put in a delay to to fix an exploit.

    If you want to complain about sword skill gap, complain when they took out the ability to hit the floor to continue your 3 hit combo.

  • xLorDJoNx
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @viperishemu2992 said in Sword Combat Balancing - In Depth Review/Feedback:

    @lanky-tentacles said in Sword Combat Balancing - In Depth Review/Feedback:

    @viperishemu2992 removing double gun isn't a valid solution. You would alienate a large percent of the players and the combat would seem extremely forced and more clunky.

    I'm not sure about that? If it meant that Rare had a better chance of finally balancing the weapons, combat might actually improve over-all?

    I agree that not having the double gun option would be a loss. But if it lead to well-balanced combat and an end to the never-ending complaints about combat it might be worth the sacrifice?

    More choices & wonky combat or Less choices & well-balanced combat. This is, obviously, assuming Rare could manage to balance 3 combo's. But since 6 combo's has so far eluded them why not give it a shot? I'd take that chance. If they still can't fix it then they can always re-introduce the double gun option after all!

    You are assuming combat will be more balanced by removing double gun? That's a bold statement.

    Even using sword now with Skeles and groups of AD's is horrible. So what does that even have to do with double gunning? We are missing the point here.

    Sword is clunky and even then has gotten worse. It needs to be corrected, at a minimum reverted until there is better mechanics build around the sword. Double gunning has nothing to do with that. There is a lot of risk/reward double gunning, but its not the best option, well let me correct that, right now it seems to be the best option. You lose so much time trying to make quick moves with the sword, it killed proficient players with it and really didn't help the average players (they won't get better with it). I see that as a problem.

    It is however a macro issue and these band-aid fixes just don't work.

    I will take more choices over everything at this point. In an open world game we should have options. Even I want to be able to use the shovel as a weapon (slow and powerful).

    Also, who said this game needs everything to be "balanced" this isn't a massive competitive game. Have the most gold or most cosmetics means little, what is the deal with people and having to have it all balanced? IF that's the case have everything with zero delays, knock-back and only do 20 damage across the board and have fun with that.

    Double gunning is not the issue and people need to stop saying it is when we all know the sword play is very problematic. It really hasn't benefit anyone.

  • xLorDJoNx
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @ragetrox said in Sword Combat Balancing - In Depth Review/Feedback:

    As a day 1 Sea of Thieves player, I agree with many of the statements on this tread. I fell in love with Sea of Thieves and as it changes with each update its combat identity is stripped without anything else taking its place. We understand wanting to correct exploits and bugs, but those things represent where players could find a skill gap. I'm waiting for a skill gap update where new mechanics are introduced into the game. I want to see moves that open up the possibilities and variety of combat. I never want to see double gunning disappear, but I also don't want to feel like this with the sword:

    Amen. Even out side PvP, the sword is a disaster with PvE. That really says something.

  • FyreSails
    Commander
    Insider
    Founder

    If you want to complain about sword skill gap, complain when they took out the ability to hit the floor to continue your 3 hit combo.
    It doesn't take skill to hit the ground bud

  • xLorDJoNx
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @zormis said in [Sword Combat Balancing - In Depth

    Also putting in a macro detection is a bit of a joke, the easier and correct fix was to put in a delay to to fix an exploit.

    You hit the nail on the head, its easier. Doesn't mean it was the right thing. This was a band-aid fix, I get it, but it really did kill the sword. I have never seen so much double gunning as I have recently.

    Don't get me wrong, I am perfectly fine with it but people really are not given the options of useful tools when the sword has been crippled. You can still use it, but if you are solo or a small crew, it really isn't that good to be proficient with against bigger crews. Even PvE suffers massively when doing forts and anything that could mob you. Between the added delay, standing there blocking when attempting to lunge to quick and lack of run after attack, it's just so slow and clunky. Forget even mention the bugs again.

    It is what it is, but this discussion is an interesting one and people that don't like to double gun or don't care to are going to suffer. At least that is what I am seeing more of in my instance. No matter what people will adapt, I just don't see this as moving forward for better play. But that is my opinion.

  • Crazed Corsair
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    I have and continue to maintain that they need to revert ALL of the changes to Sword combat since launch, save for the scenery combo exploit.

    It was quite frankly in a very good place until they started talking about Arena. After that sword combat has only become progressively worse with every update.

    Sure, its annoying to be stunlocked, but it actually encourages one to learn, and to actually have to whip out ones sword and "block" attacks to become a skilled swordsman, and it also makes the sword viable vs firearms, since they cant just reload and blast you in the face repeatedly without bothering to "defend" themselves.

  • DeplorableJones
    Rogue

    @ji6ran Well thought out and well said. The cutlass was easy to use and hard to master but fun when you did. Rare please don't punish us for the actions of a few and please don't wait months for the fix. Although a lot of us can use instant double gun and wall bang, we don't want to. (Curious why isn't this addressed?) A lot of us want to be a classic pirate that uses a cutlass and a gun! Please revert or make it viable in a timely manner! Thank you!

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @Ji6ran I disagree with most of your points - in fact, I only agree with 2:

    1. How the sword was good a long time ago.
    2. How the weapons "stick" without holding the input.

    ...but that's it. While your post is well written, you, like everyone else, seems to have forgotten how the sword was buffed defensively. You can't discount that simply because you're so focused on the offensive side of things...

    The stun was only supposed to make it harder to fight back - not get you killed outright. With prior stun, 1st attack on hit or block usually won the fight. That's not balanced at all - it's boring! Being punished instead of rewarding you for a good defense isn't great gameplay design.

    Ever since they removed stun on block and reduced it on hit, I have had some epic fights and have rarely lost because I know how to move, defend, and don't overly rely on the charge mechanic like so many pirates seem to do.

    I find that most pirates don't even grasp the full potential of the mechanics that are their - I show pirates all of the time how you can use a sword dodge to move through an enemy pirate, and without fail, they're always like "you can do that!?" And I've trained new pirates, veterans, and yes - even pirate legends who didn't realize they could do this, among other things.

  • ViperishEmu2992
    Marauder

    @savagexxxone I am not arguing that double-gunning is a problem (although it apparently is). Nor do I think that taking away the option to carry 2 guns is a preferable choice.

    But what nobody can argue with any sense of objectivity is that hand-to-hand combat in SoT is unbalanced, wonky and a constant source of aggravation and discord. You only need to look at the sum total of all posts to see that it is probably in third place of grievances behind (PvE-only and Cross-Platform).

    In layman's terms: "hand-to-hand" combat in SoT sucks.

    If Rare can make combat "better" by reducing the number of "load-out" combo's by 50%. Then only a fool would not take that path. Rare have tweaked and consistently failed to create a decent and well balanced hand-to-hand system for almost 2 years now. Maybe they should lower the bar since they are obviously out of their depth. Balancing 6 combo's is exponentially harder than balancing 3. That is my point. Rare are the losers of combat in the Premiership. But they could be the Champions of the 1st division! And this game is really about ship-vs-ship anyways. Not about Hand-to_Hand.

    Imagine a world where hand-to-hand combat in SoT was awesome, snappy, and fun. Just no 2-gun load-out. Sounds good to me! Can Rare achieve this? The last 2 years say NO! But balancing 3 instead of 6 layouts might give them a shot at the crown?

  • BritishMango05
    Master
    Insider

    @Ji6ran I agree sword combat is very clunky and the skill gap is next to none and I'm afraid to think about how long its gonna take them to make more changes so I was wondering who would like if Rare took 1 to 2 months (maybe 3) off of monthly updates and just focused on combat and bug fixes? (and maybe hired some new devs that know how to design a pvp type game). If Rare wants their game to become popular I think
    they should focus on polishing up their current version and stop adding new content for a while what do you guys think?

  • Magazar
    Marauder
    Insider

    Rare needs to also revert sword lunging. Lunging was perfect, no changes were needed besides SLIGHTLY nerfing the lunge hit radius. Lots of times I manage to hit people with lunges when they are to my side and even when they are behind me.

    clip showing lunge radius
    Not the best example but I'm sure people can understand what I mean.

  • xLorDJoNx
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @viperishemu2992 said in Sword Combat Balancing - In Depth Review/Feedback:

    @savagexxxone I am not arguing that double-gunning is a problem (although it apparently is).>

    This statement is your opinion and a few others, but opinion none the less. Nothing is apparent, especially on forums.

    But what nobody can argue with any sense of objectivity is that hand-to-hand combat in SoT is unbalanced, wonky and a constant source of aggravation and discord. You only need to look at the sum total of all posts to see that it is probably in third place of grievances behind (PvE-only and Cross-Platform).

    In layman's terms: "hand-to-hand" combat in SoT sucks.

    If Rare can make combat "better" by reducing the number of "load-out" combo's by 50%. Then only a fool would not take that path. Rare have tweaked and consistently failed to create a decent and well balanced hand-to-hand system for almost 2 years now. Maybe they should lower the bar since they are obviously out of their depth. Balancing 6 combo's is harder than balancing 3. That is my point. Not that double-guns is bad.

    Imagine a world where hand-to-hand combat was awesome, snappy, and fun. Just no 2-gun load-out. Can Rare achieve this? The last 2 years say NO! But balancing 3 instead of 6 layouts might give them a shot?

    History in this matter shows we do have issues with "updates" in general with this game and mechanics being broken is newer issues. I found sword play, much better a few updates ago, but I adapted and found ways to be proficient with the sword with the past update. While it did change some movements, it wasn't any where near as broken and clunky as this update. This update was for the soul purpose to band-aid fix an exploit. The QoL wasn't groundbreaking and really set us back quit a few. Insiders spoke to this as they tested it out more and we all got real worried when it went live.

    I don't think taking things away is an answer any more than just taking the time to understand what tools we have, combinations of those tools and why one uses them compare to the other. They did this pretty well in my mind with the guns, but are really falling massively short with the sword. I think they missed the mark on why people use the sword.

    Pistol: Fast Reload and Mobility. Two shots or so to drop someone
    Blunder: Average Reload, Close and personal. Can be one shot if perfect. Outside that, horrible.
    Sniper: Above Average Reload, Medium to Long Range. Critical Shot 2/3's of life.

    There is a balance here on why the weapons are used and in what case. The swords purpose is to be a great addition to a gun or a main weapon that is counter with a gun.

    Sword should be MOBILE, that is the whole point of this weapon. You should have better movement than other the guns. Speed and agility, able to stun and counter close quarters.

    This is how it was originally and well even a few updates ago. This "fix" just really hurt the foundation of the sword. Now we do hear rumblings of guns getting "fixed" but I just see this as trying to balance some aspects of the game that will end up most likely ruining all combat going forward. If you have a poor sword and and guns to boot, going to be a rough game to keep playing. And this perspective is more towards PvE then even PvP.

    Then need to revert changes on sword and find a better way to fix these exploits. long delays that are quite noticeable isn't the best option. I would add a secondary option for quick melee, like the shovel. It could be more of a "heavy weapon" that is slow to charge but does really good damage. Keep the weapons where they are at, but maybe bring some QoL to them. For me I would like to see some small knock-back on Snipers when I am being rushed.

    There are so many more options to really get past some of this clunky play, but I just see a lot of knee jerking changes that are causing more frustrations. And we do speak of these things in Insiders. So there is not too much surprise on their end when people are frustrated on these topics.

    Enjoy the discussion though.

  • Cpt SockMonster
    Legend
    Insider

    Agreed with everything you said.

    I understand that the mindless Macro Sword spamming needed a fix, just like double gun in the day.
    But now they have taken all the skill out of the sword.

    No more bunny hop after a sword lunge.
    No more Sword cancelling techniques that could make for cool plays.

    There is almost no difference anymore between a new player and a long term player besides the movement like u said.

    I want to keep playing this game for it's PvP, but everytime i use this nerfed sword & having to consider double gunning, turns me off.

  • Swefoo
    Master
    Insider

    @galactic-geek said in Sword Combat Balancing - In Depth Review/Feedback:

    @Ji6ran I disagree with most of your points - in fact, I only agree with 2:

    1. How the sword was good a long time ago.
    2. How the weapons "stick" without holding the input.

    ...but that's it. While your post is well written, you, like everyone else, seems to have forgotten how the sword was buffed defensively. You can't discount that simply because you're so focused on the offensive side of things...

    The stun was only supposed to make it harder to fight back - not get you killed outright. With prior stun, 1st attack on hit or block usually won the fight. That's not balanced at all - it's boring! Being punished instead of rewarding you for a good defense isn't great gameplay design.

    Ever since they removed stun on block and reduced it on hit, I have had some epic fights and have rarely lost because I know how to move, defend, and don't overly rely on the charge mechanic like so many pirates seem to do.

    I find that most pirates don't even grasp the full potential of the mechanics that are their - I show pirates all of the time how you can use a sword dodge to move through an enemy pirate, and without fail, they're always like "you can do that!?" And I've trained new pirates, veterans, and yes - even pirate legends who didn't realize they could do this, among other things.

    I disagree with one of your points where you say with the prior stun, first hit would win the fight. I’m sure as you saw in that lockdown twitch clip I linked, the streamer was unable to get out of my lockdown. However, that is due to his own fault of not having proper movement. There have been many people who I’ve fought, who have gotten the first two or three slashes on me! However I still managed to win the fight. Why? It’s because of my movement and ability to get out of those stun locks. Even when I would have 4 people running at me with a sword on a galleon, they were unable to “sword vortex” me or lock me down, because of how I learned from my mistakes and how to avoid the stuns.

    My point is, the stun was there (as I mentioned in my post) before and allowed players to see their mistakes, caused them to be more cautious on how to approach, and when to actually attack. It also showed whether or not your hit actually landed due to the terrible hit registration that occurs. Now that the stun is close to nonexistent, you can have sword fights with people and not get punished for going in mindlessly. The concept of playing defensively diminished when they decided to reduce the stun from 0.5 seconds to 0.2 seconds.

  • Rotintin
    Marauder
    Insider

    Thanks for spending the time to write this, it really breaks down what's wrong with this new system. It seems that Rare's approach to combat balance is always adding animations. While this may fix a problem regarding certain exploits or macros, it just makes the game feel clunky and unresponsive. I've played a lot of games, but this is the only one I can think of where the developers intentionally make combat feel slower and less responsive. Combining that with a plummeting skill ceiling, new ADS bugs every patch, and the everlasting problem of hit reg, it's getting hard to not become frustrated while playing.

    A lot of people posting in this thread are the most passionate and skilled SOT players out there. A rising, negative sentiment among this crowd can't be a good thing for the game, and the issues that are being discussed need to be addressed.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @ji6ran I tested the stun-lock extensively. On hit or block, it rooted you in place. You could not:

    1. Counter-attack (with sword)
    2. Jump.
    3. Turn.
    4. Sword-dodge (on block)
    5. Switch weapons
    6. Reload
    7. Move

    This left you with only 2 options -

    1. Shoot them if you had a loaded gun IF they were in front of you.
    2. Block with the sword and hope to God they were dumb enough to stay in front of you (they never were, BTW).

    It didn't really matter anyways, because with the increased sword movement speed, they could easily sidestep past your one-sided block, and with the infinite sword-swing, they could ensure that you stayed put until they killed you or their allies did.

    I tested this scientifically with no outside or external factors or variables. If they TOUCHED you 1st, you were done. No ifs, ands, or buts. I even tested ranged hits (both close and far) and with multiple attackers. The results were ALWAYS the same.

    It broke the game - for months because of this, I stayed almost entirely with ship to ship combat whenever I could.

    With the way it is now, on block, I can:

    1. Counter-attack
    2. Sword-dodge
    3. Turn
    4. Move
    5. Switch weapons

    You still can't reload or jump, but that makes sense, and works just fine.

    If you get hit, that slight stun gives the offense a chance to setup their next attack, but that's it. If you're attacking and standing still while doing it, then you deserve to die - you gotta move if you want the advantage. That's actually why so many pirates hate the current setup, without even realizing it - before, they got used to running straight at the enemy to get 1st touch. Because their opponent was so stunned, they just kept spamming sword slash with an established exploit, according to the devs, and never did anything else because they didn't need to. Now that they're forced to adapt and either can't or won't, they're suffering from their hubris.

    Me on the other hand? I'm winning.

    The delay with block and other items, along with the sticky block/aim after releasing the input is an issue, bmand is 1 that should be fixed, but for now, there are work-arounds. The item issue is annoying, but it's not gamebreaking - pirates just have to learn to have a split-second of patience. With the delayed block, they just need to retrain themselves to block 1st and then draw - it seems weird, but it's not hard to do in the slightest; you just have to be present in, and cognizant, of the moment to do it instead of relying on instinct and reflexes. The same is true for those of you failing the sword-charge. The sticky issue is the only 1 that's truly an issue, as it has even nearly gotten me killed.

    As for everything else that was affected by this update negatively, such as charge-cancelling - that, and others, were just exploits that pirates were wrongfully taking advantage of. Now that they can't rely on it, they're failing or looking for alternative exploits. It's not about skill at all with those folks; all it is is, well, it's just sad...

    The devs were very clear on what they did or did not consider an exploit. In the end, it's their Sea, and we're only allowed to sail on it. If we can't do that in the way that they envisioned, then they will make changes if they deem it necessary. If that happens, we really only have 3 choices.

    1. Adapt.
    2. Die.
    3. Quit.

    Are you pirate enough? 🤔

  • Swefoo
    Master
    Insider

    @galactic-geek said in Sword Combat Balancing - In Depth Review/Feedback:

    @ji6ran I tested the stun-lock extensively. On hit or block, it rooted you in place. You could not:

    1. Counter-attack (with sword)
    2. Jump.
    3. Turn.
    4. Sword-dodge (on block)
    5. Switch weapons
    6. Reload
    7. Move

    This left you with only 2 options -

    1. Shoot them if you had a loaded gun IF they were in front of you.
    2. Block with the sword and hope to God they were dumb enough to stay in front of you (they never were, BTW).

    It didn't really matter anyways, because with the increased sword movement speed, they could easily sidestep past your one-sided block, and with the infinite sword-swing, they could ensure that you stayed put until they killed you or their allies did.

    I tested this scientifically with no outside or external factors or variables. If they TOUCHED you 1st, you were done. No ifs, ands, or buts. I even tested ranged hits (both close and far) and with multiple attackers. The results were ALWAYS the same.

    It broke the game - for months because of this, I stayed almost entirely with ship to ship combat whenever I could.

    With the way it is now, on block, I can:

    1. Counter-attack
    2. Sword-dodge
    3. Turn
    4. Move
    5. Switch weapons

    You still can't reload or jump, but that makes sense, and works just fine.

    If you get hit, that slight stun gives the offense a chance to setup their next attack, but that's it. If you're attacking and standing still while doing it, then you deserve to die - you gotta move if you want the advantage. That's actually why so many pirates hate the current setup, without even realizing it - before, they got used to running straight at the enemy to get 1st touch. Because their opponent was so stunned, they just kept spamming sword slash with an established exploit, according to the devs, and never did anything else because they didn't need to. Now that they're forced to adapt and either can't or won't, they're suffering from their hubris.

    Me on the other hand? I'm winning.

    That's where your sword skill comes into play however. I am not attacking you when I say this, but if you were hit by someone before you hit them (on the previous patch) and you died, then you didn't know how to escape lockdowns. The reason why I spoke out about this is because of my reputation with the sword, and how many different things I've innovated with play styles and whatnot. I can tell you as a fact, and many people in this post can vouch for me as well when I say, you can escape lockdowns / if you got hit first. Here's the process behind it:
    The sword as I've mentioned before, shouldn't have been changed since a year and a half ago as it was in the perfect state back then. During the last few updates to the sword, the skill gap has been lowered and lowered even more with every change that comes out, and the sword becomes a clunkier weapon by the updates. One way to get out of these lockdowns, was to parry.
    Currently, there is also a parry mechanic within the game. While you're holding your block, if you slash right after their slash lands on you, you have just parried their attack and are able to takeover the tides in the fight. On top of this, the sword as you know has been becoming more Mouse 1 spammy, and even when I locked down people, they could get out of it BECAUSE they would just spam their attack key, causing them to takeover the offense position.

    My point is, there were multiple ways to get out of the first hit on you, and I'm living proof of that. There are clips, vods, streamers and competitive players to testify with me on that, that you can escape lockdowns. Ever since I started playing I would only get on to do duels once I hit PL from forts. Anyone that knows me will confirm that whenever I hopped on this game, it would be duels (before arena came out), and this went on for about a year until arena finally came out. Like I said, I spoke out about this because of my reputation with my swordplay and how much I revolutionized the swordplay (not trying to sound egotistical, just stating facts that can be backed up). So you saying that you cannot get away after the first hit and you'll essentially lose, is false. If anything it shows you don't possess the necessary movement / game sense / skill to actually escape those lockdowns and hits (when the stun was still 0.5 seconds) no offense at all, and I'm not trying to come at your neck or anything, but just stating what I see based on facts and other people who play this game.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @ji6ran Forgive me if I find it hard to believe you. On block, during my tests, I would try to counter as soon as the hit landed, and the delay was very similar to the kind of delay we have now - nothing would happen. This either means that:

    1. You're wrong, or...
    2. The timing was so narrow and precise that only a select few could do it (and if that's the case, can you really call it balanced, especially considering the hit registration issues?). Also, I distinctly recall the devs themselves state in a video that they couldn't effectively incorporate a parry due expressly to timing issues, so yeah, there's that...

    I'm sure you would say it was the latter, of course, while I'll remain adamant that it's likely the former - I've seen a lot of footage and read up on a lot of SoT and have never heard of the parry you speak of. If we had such a thing, why have there been so many requests from the community to add a parry or counter-attack?

    In my experience, the closest thing we ever had to what you described, was the quickdraw - the ability to draw out a gun quickly AND aim down sights off a sword block simply by holding the block as you switched weapons. IMO, this was a great mechanic, regardless of whether it was intentional by design or a fluke of luck - it allowed you to instantly punish an opponent that bounced off of your block on the 3rd strike by getting 1 shot in. Unlike the double gun exploit, it was perfectly balanced because you only got 1 shot which wouldn't kill them outright unless they were already injured. Sadly, this was nerfed into oblivion specifically because of the DGE - you can't do it anymore. Believe me, I wish we could.

    Regardless of who's right or wrong between you and me, just this discussion regardingmechanics alone should prove that the combat in this game is, or at least was, never as shallow as many were lead to believe. I knew how deep it truly was - I knew things that 95% of other purates that I encountered, including numerous pirate legends, simply didn't know - and all because they assumed it was simple, and straight up quit trying new things.

    This is exactly why I think many struggle now. They assume that it's too simple or shallow, and either lose ad nauseum because they're not improving through learning, or because they simply found something else they think works great (even if it truly doesn't), like the advanced sword charge (which wasn't and still isn't actually great - it's just the high risk, high reward option.

    Good conversation so far. Touché!

  • Sweltering Nick
    Castaway

    @galactic-geek

    The stun was only supposed to make it harder to fight back - not get you killed outright. With prior stun, 1st attack on hit or block usually won the fight. That's not balanced at all - it's boring! Being punished instead of rewarding you for a good defense isn't great gameplay design.

    This, so much this.... All of this!

    They need to focus on good game design, instead of just clumsily catering to the complaints of players... Take a long hard look at how each of the combat aspects mentally reward the player!

  • Swefoo
    Master
    Insider

    @galactic-geek said in Sword Combat Balancing - In Depth Review/Feedback:

    @ji6ran Forgive me if I find it hard to believe you. On block, during my tests, I would try to counter as soon as the hit landed, and the delay was very similar to the kind of delay we have now - nothing would happen. This either means that:

    1. You're wrong, or...
    2. The timing was so narrow and precise that only a select few could do it (and if that's the case, can you really call it balanced, especially considering the hit registration issues?). Also, I distinctly recall the devs themselves state in a video that they couldn't effectively incorporate a parry due expressly to timing issues, so yeah, there's that...

    I'm sure you would say it was the latter, of course, while I'll remain adamant that it's likely the former - I've seen a lot of footage and read up on a lot of SoT and have never heard of the parry you speak of. If we had such a thing, why have there been so many requests from the community to add a parry or counter-attack?

    In my experience, the closest thing we ever had to what you described, was the quickdraw - the ability to draw out a gun quickly AND aim down sights off a sword block simply by holding the block as you switched weapons. IMO, this was a great mechanic, regardless of whether it was intentional by design or a fluke of luck - it allowed you to instantly punish an opponent that bounced off of your block on the 3rd strike by getting 1 shot in. Unlike the double gun exploit, it was perfectly balanced because you only got 1 shot which wouldn't kill them outright unless they were already injured. Sadly, this was nerfed into oblivion specifically because of the DGE - you can't do it anymore. Believe me, I wish we could.

    Regardless of who's right or wrong between you and me, just this discussion regardingmechanics alone should prove that the combat in this game is, or at least was, never as shallow as many were lead to believe. I knew how deep it truly was - I knew things that 95% of other purates that I encountered, including numerous pirate legends, simply didn't know - and all because they assumed it was simple, and straight up quit trying new things.

    This is exactly why I think many struggle now. They assume that it's too simple or shallow, and either lose ad nauseum because they're not improving through learning, or because they simply found something else they think works great (even if it truly doesn't), like the advanced sword charge (which wasn't and still isn't actually great - it's just the high risk, high reward option.

    Good conversation so far. Touché!

    It’s fine if you find it hard to believe me, but being someone who’s been revolutionizing the cutlass in different ways and finding new ways to improve, I am not stating anything false when I say you can escape lockdowns and vortexes, and win even if they got the first few hits on you.

    As you said, our conversation has proven that there’s many things wrong with the design of the combat system in play. Starting from the ground up however would be an extremely big learning curve for everyone, so changing the combat system and it’s entirety this deep into the game’s release doesn’t seem like a viable option. Perhaps adding what they want little by little? So that adjusting doesn’t take up much time at all.

    Also, I know you said you’ve read up on a lot of the SoT mechanics and haven’t heard of parrying within this game, but it’s there. I actually showed it to a streamer on stream how it works as well. You saying that if there truly was a parry mechanic, Rare would have said something by now, you shouldn’t be surprised they haven’t. No offense to Rare, but they ironically don’t know how half of the combat mechanics work. It took them a full 9-10 months to figure out double gunning was an issue, and that too thanks to summit. It took them more than a year and a half to figure out what X cancelling (Stow/Unstow animation cancelling) was; and that too because a video rose up showing a player using a macro to do it in an official Arena tournament.

    When I would come up with these new sword play styles, there wouldn’t be any videos on it at all, no posts, no screenshots, no publicity, or anything. Trying to learn about SoT combat mechanics online is a start, but it does not in any way, shape, or form help with learning the deep mechanics within the game. There’s still probably more we don’t know about the sword, guns, or even the game itself even now, and it’s just waiting to be discovered. This game has so much potential for its combat system, and it’s just being tossed to the side by incompetent decisions. I also have a solution/alternative to the Stow/Unstow animation cancelling, which I’ll update tomorrow on my main post.

  • Swefoo
    Master
    Insider

    @Galactic-Geek just edited the main thread providing an alternative to the Stow/Unstow animation cancelling.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @ji6ran Instant dashing when your opponent is already close to you? Why? You don't need it if they're already there. Besides, you can always do a running sword slash - and no, I don't mean run at them with the sword, or the charge. This was the specific technique that I alluded to earlier that 95% of pirates that I encountered didn't know about. Simply do a sword dodge (block+move+jump) but replace the jump with a sword slash (not the charge; the slash - you tap it; don't hold it). This is great for getting those diagonal cuts that bypass a block. It's usefulness has been greatly reduced since the sword's boost in speed, but it still works. The additional movement puts you where your opponent doesn't expect and essentially allows you to feint. The bounce off of block you mentioned won't be an issue either because you're not actually comboing (though you could if you wanted). The quickdraw mechanic I also mentioned earlier in the thread would have been another method of counter-attacking off of the bounce too, had it not been collateral damage to the DGE.

  • Swefoo
    Master
    Insider

    @galactic-geek said in Sword Combat Balancing - In Depth Review/Feedback:

    @ji6ran Instant dashing when your opponent is already close to you? Why? You don't need it if they're already there. Besides, you can always do a running sword slash - and no, I don't mean run at them with the sword, or the charge. This was the specific technique that I alluded to earlier that 95% of pirates that I encountered didn't know about. Simply do a sword dodge (block+move+jump) but replace the jump with a sword slash (not the charge; the slash - you tap it; don't hold it). This is great for getting those diagonal cuts that bypass a block. It's usefulness has been greatly reduced since the sword's boost in speed, but it still works. The additional movement puts you where your opponent doesn't expect and essentially allows you to feint. The bounce off of block you mentioned won't be an issue either because you're not actually comboing (though you could if you wanted). The quickdraw mechanic I also mentioned earlier in the thread would have been another method of counter-attacking off of the bounce too, had it not been collateral damage to the DGE.

    I think you misinterpreted it. Not instantly dashing. I slash you once (or twice), and then I immediately am allowed to sprint afterwards, and then do another slash. Obviously sword dodging and replacing the jump with a sword slash is a given, but even when you do that you have to wait a short while before you can sprint again because of the slash animation taking over - hence why we all did the Stow/Unstow Animation cancelling, because we wanted to be able to sprint right after, or have instant movement right after, rather than being handicapped for a short period of time, in which the favor of the battle could be changed right away.

  • CjStrongArmz
    Master

    I practiced alot against you and you may know me haha. I got even better at the sword tricks since then. I do not have a huge problem with the bugs going away, but the big stun and the instant ready time need to make a return. We currently have no way to stand up to the oppressive eye of reach anymore as you can kite anyone with a brain and spacebar.

    I can no longer follow up on my blunder bus knockback with 1-2 slashes because it simply does not pull out fast enough.

    To really tell you how much I learned from people like you, before it's removal I was dash triple jumping for added mobility on land when I felt like practicing. I remember dueling you guns vs sword and we had some good times. The sword duels were not so good times lol, only got 1 kill in a no lunge duel.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @ji6ran ...but you keep moving at angles that are hard for anyone to follow or block effectively so the recovery of the slash is a moot point because its effectiveness is in scoring continuous successful hits, not its speed of attack. Your feint doesn't do diddly if the opponent holds their block because your feint is too quick for them to even adjust. With the running slash, you don't have to rely on locking them down either.

    Also, the sword dodge has 2 properties that most pirates aren't aware of, even if they know how to do it:

    1. You can use it to pass through an opponent's space.
    2. There is no cooldown time on it, like with the sword charge - many simply think it does because they hold down their block for too long mid-move.
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