"Counter Play" Solving the problems with CCB's (Rogue Wave) disscusion Updated 11/16

  • This is a spinoff tread of my Curse Gunpowder Kegs Tread and was Brought up by @WeakDexx and @BETSILL on the topic of Curse Cannonballs(CCB) and there inherent flaws and how they could be improved.

    Counter Play:

    For those who do not know, Counter play is a concept in games which states that gameplay element should be just as fun and engaging to a players being effected by an action just as much as they can effect the game itself. By creating opportunities and options for the player to engage with. Such as in a Shooter game you want it to be as fun to a player getting Shot at as it is for the player shooting at stuff.

    Example: Halo did this quite well for one they made alien weapons slow moving projectiles thru ray tracing. Making it so a player could Dodge the incoming fire. Also with the addition of a personal sheild and life bar they gave player the abilty to have moments of oppertunity to fight back if they took the risk of steping into the line of fire. Skill play was rewarded for countering effectively as the sheild could regen.

    I bring this up for discussion as it is clear that there is little to no counter play when hit with a CCB as all it mostly does is limit player options of the victem if not entirely disabling them from reacting.

    Update:

    There seems to be two spreate lines of thought brought up here and so i am adding both sepreately.

    The Counter Balance Approah: Originally this post was framed in the veiw that CCB's are inherently unbalanced in their current form and needed to be rebalanced by adding counter measures as the effects were simply OP.

    1. One Solution i propose is to have a secondary effect to CCB's themselves to act like a counter by making them a consumable item striaght from the player inventory to directly counter there own effects. This of couse is not a perfect idea which is why i open the floor to you guys.

    2. Second Solution brought up by @XShaduh and detailed by @WeakDexx is creating and additional item Called potions. These potions can be used to both counter CCB's directly and create CGPB.

    3. A Third solution brung up by @x-Crowheart-x was to add a Tailsmen like object that we can obtain From the OOS and could we can imbue a blessing onto by taking to a shine of painting on an island so that it can grant somekind of temporary immunity.

    4. Last Solution coming from @TheUnionJames and agian from @x-Crowheart-x is to add a Negtive effect for holding on to or hoarding CCB's

    The Reductionist Apporach: Is the veiw that CCB would be best treated if they simply more limited or restricted as an item.

    1. The frist solution comes from @BETSILL to simply limit the types of CCB's last count given was 3 and to add specific damage zones restricting the area to where shots would be effective.

    2. The second solution given by @Trickrtreat01 is to simply reduce the avialiblity of CCB's by ethier simply making them more rare or as @x-Crowheart-x suggested limit where you can obtain them. Making them an item that can only be obtained from a Skull Fort or Skelly Ship.

    Do you like any of these ideas and want them expanded on?

    Or do you guys have your own idea's you wish to add?

    Rogue Wave related treads:

    Rogue Wave Prelude
    Giving Loot Gamplay Value (Rogue Wave PreReq)
    The Hunt (Rogue Wave Event)

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  • The idea of cursed cannonballs countering the same type of cursed cannonball isn't that great in my opinion. If potions do get added to the game (which I doubt is likely) a cure to the effects on your ship would be awesome. Otherwise there should be a rare barrel item called a "Cursed Cure" or something like that.

  • @enf0rcer
    I really don't like CCB's still. the effects they have are too powerful, apply in way to large an AOE, and since they shoot like regular cannon balls you can just chain and stack the CC into absurdity. At the very least I think something like half of them should be removed. I would remove all of the player CC cannonballs first personally. As for the CC cleanse, it would need to be a universal cleanse. Limiting the cleanse to only one effect would make it overly limited and clunky to the point of being useless. Like I said though, they just need to be removed. They detract way to much from the game and completely screw ship battles and reduce them to "who hit's first CCB wins". Something like a blunderbuss cannon shot would be much better for a way to mix up cannon combat and/or rewarding accurate shots such as hitting the rudder disables the helm for a time.

  • @xshaduh said in "Counter Play" Solving the problems with CCB's (Rouge Wave) disscusion:

    The idea of cursed cannonballs countering the same type of cursed cannonball isn't that great in my opinion. If potions do get added to the game (which I doubt is likely) a cure to the effects on your ship would be awesome. Otherwise there should be a rare barrel item called a "Cursed Cure" or something like that.

    This is yet another great idea that i'll be adding.

  • @betsill said in "Counter Play" Solving the problems with CCB's (Rouge Wave) disscusion:

    @enf0rcer
    I really don't like CCB's still. the effects they have are too powerful, apply in way to large an AOE, and since they shoot like regular cannon balls you can just chain and stack the CC into absurdity. At the very least I think something like half of them should be removed. I would remove all of the player CC first cannonballs personally. As for the CC cleanse, it would need to be a universal cleanse. Limiting the cleanse to only one effect would make it overly limited and clunky to the point of being useless. Like I said though, they just need to be removed. They detract way to much from the game and completely screw ship battles and reduce them to "who hit's first CCB wins". Something like a blunderbuss cannon shot would be much better for a way to mix up cannon combat and/or rewarding accurate shots such as hitting the rudder disables the helm for a time.

    Well i agree the effects themselves need tweaking i do agree some are imbalanced and OP but instead of just opting to remove them i think it's better to think up ways to adjust them. Your saying here you want a weapon platform/delivery it self to be changed. This would be difficult as you then have rebalance the ships as well. I ghink there are better ways to tackle this problem as remember the issue were discussing here are the effects themselves.

  • @enf0rcer The only way I can think to sort of balance CCB's is to reduce them to maybe 3 types(IMO peaceball, helmball, and anchorball) and only allow players to hold 1 at a time. Then instead of them being a random spawn(which just plain needs to stop being a thing in general) have a certain task to get them like a skeleton captain in the arena or a crate of 2 or 3 from a skeleton ship.

    Your saying here you want a weapon platform/delivery it self to be changed.

    Sorry i didn't explain very well. The blunderbuss cannon would just be an alternative ammo type that you put in the cannons. It would be really good for killing players on ships, but wouldn't deal dmg to ships. the rudder thing is just a hitbox thing that applies the current "helmball" effect.

  • @betsill said in "Counter Play" Solving the problems with CCB's (Rouge Wave) disscusion:

    @enf0rcer The only way I can think to sort of balance CCB's is to reduce them to maybe 3 types(IMO peaceball, helmball, and anchorball) and only allow players to hold 1 at a time. Then instead of them being a random spawn(which just plain needs to stop being a thing in general) have a certain task to get them like a skeleton captain in the arena or a crate of 2 or 3 from a skeleton ship.

    Man really only 3 types. Sound incredibly limiting. Ok i'm gonna choose to look at as these 3 balls have no issue and work fine. Therefore lets
    say that the issues lie in the other 7 balls then.

    So let focus on going over each of these. one by one.

    Your saying here you want a weapon platform/delivery it self to be changed.

    Sorry i didn't explain very well. The blunderbuss cannon would just be an alternative ammo type that you put in the cannons. It would be really good for killing players on ships, but wouldn't deal dmg to ships. the rudder thing is just a hitbox thing that applies the current "helmball" effect.

    Oh ok, but this type of system is far more complex. This is a discussion on anthor post that lead to CCB's in the frist place. I'll try to find it and link it back here as a reference point and so we won't retread on retired issues.

  • @enf0rcer

    Man really only 3 types. Sound incredibly limiting. Ok i'm gonna choose to look at as these 3 balls have no issue and work fine. Therefore lets
    say that the issues lie in the other 7 balls then.

    If we add the rudder disabling affect to the cannons then we would only need 2. It's better to be limited and balanced than varied and broken. Most of the effects have no real distinction(they are all just incapacitate in a big AoE) and CCB's currently are just "fire what you have". Limiting it to these 3 specifically would also give it a bit more of a thematic flare. They all effect the ship in a way that feels "cursed". Like the ship itself is haunted and acting against you(rigging-ball also works in this regard, but overlaps in function to much with the anchorball(which I think is just better)).

    Oh ok, but this type of system is far more complex.

    It's not complex at all. It's just copy pasta the blunderbuss to the cannon, scale the range, scale the dmg, and wam bam you got a blunderbuss cannon. Or copy pasta 8 flintlocks together or something, either way it's really simple.

  • There is 2 types of cursed cannonball.

    Green for player.
    Purple for ship.

    @ENF0RCER mentioned eating a CB to counter the effect. It is like the potion mentioned by @XShaduh.
    The potion is the CB itself. This would be great for countering the Green CB's.

    Myself mentioned in a diffrent post about Cursed Gunpowder barrels a new cursed ball. I call it Curse Breaker Ball.

    The ways to obtain:
    can either be finding it or buying it. If u can buy it than it needs to be limited. U can also hide this item behind a commendation lets say Legendary Curse Breaker. This gives the mermaids more value. Heck slay a mermaid and gain the curse breaker ball (if u are legendary curse breaker) maybe 1 out of 2 or 3 will drop a Curse Breaker ball.

    The usage:
    I see 2 or even 3 options here.

    1. Eat it as mentioned earlier to act like a potion.
      When hit by a grog ball u should eat a grog ball to counter the effect. But what if u dont have grog ball? U eat Curse Breaker Ball.

    2. Make a Cursed Gunpowderbarrel out of it.
      U now have a Curse Breaker Gunpowder Barrel. (CBGPB). Detonate this on your ship to counter the purple curse ball effects. Since in my opinion the eat/potion cursed ball should only work on green curses. So the CBGPB would be for the purples to counter.
      More info on CGPB go here

    3. This was mentioned by @ENF0RCER. I didnt think of this yet but a 3th option could be to shoot the Curse Breaker Ball onto enemy ship to cancel out there curses. U hit them with Curse Breaker ball and for x amount of seconds (10?)if they hit u the curse dont take effect.

  • @betsill said in "Counter Play" Solving the problems with CCB's (Rouge Wave) disscusion:

    @enf0rcer
    I really don't like CCB's still. the effects they have are too powerful, apply in way to large an AOE, and since they shoot like regular cannon balls you can just chain and stack the CC into absurdity. At the very least I think something like half of them should be removed. I would remove all of the player CC cannonballs first personally. As for the CC cleanse, it would need to be a universal cleanse. Limiting the cleanse to only one effect would make it overly limited and clunky to the point of being useless. Like I said though, they just need to be removed. They detract way to much from the game and completely screw ship battles and reduce them to "who hit's first CCB wins". Something like a blunderbuss cannon shot would be much better for a way to mix up cannon combat and/or rewarding accurate shots such as hitting the rudder disables the helm for a time.

    Im not really with u on this. The AoE of the CB's isnt the whole ship. Even on a sloop u can get hit but as player not be hit with the curse.

    Yes u can chain attack CB's in absurdity. there's just 2 "thing".
    First u need loads of cb's. Lots of playtime and gathering. Other thing is it dont stack. I mean shooting 4 grogballs dont make me puke for 40 seconds. If u want that u need to time your shots. Wait till curse is gone and at that time hit me again. If u can please do it :).

    About the first CCB hits wins? No not true. Many battles ive been in where the enemy starts off with there CB's. I get all kind of curses. Thing is curseball dont put a hole in ship. So no water just nice sleepy while sails are up and anchor is down.
    They shot first, hell i dont even had CB's at that time. U know who won? Me because just having or using a CB dont make u victor. Its all about the tactics and how to use them.

    Little off topic here:
    I ran into a gally who countered my anchorball in a way i did not saw coming. I shot the anchorball at the gally. I shot first, I did hit. This should make me win according to your argument. But nope that did not happen. The gally dropped anchor the moment i shot. I hit them so i got there anchor up! and they continued like nothing happened.

    To me CB's are strong yes but not OP. It's all in the tactic.
    U can have 100 CB's but if u can only hit clouds (ive seen these pirates) or u just dont know how to use them... well u will sink.

  • @betsill

    u said: They all effect the ship in a way that feels "cursed". Like the ship itself is haunted and acting against you(rigging-ball also works in this regard, but overlaps in function to much with the anchorball(which I think is just better)).

    That is true they have overlapping function. But there is a big diffrence, in my opinion. 1 is used to stop a ship the other to set it sail. Both balls can be used the other way around but the effects are than smaller.

    Ship is moving, Anchorball, Ship makes a insta stop.
    Ship is moving, Riggingball, Sails up and ship makes slow stop.

    Ship is stationary, Anchorball, If sails not down ship stays stationary.
    Ship is stationary (sails, anchor are up), Riggingball, Sails go down, Ship crash into island.

    So i think the riggingball is more intented to get a ship sailing for what reason u want. And the anchorball is more intented for stopping a ship. And like i said they can be used the other way around but with less effect.

  • @enf0rcer mate do all of your topics get locked? also i'm not trying to be mean

  • @closinghare208 said in "Counter Play" Solving the problems with CCB's (Rouge Wave) disscusion:

    @enf0rcer mate do all of your topics get locked? also i'm not trying to be mean

    What you mean? Which of topics were Locked? I never had any topic locked to the best of my knowledge as i have not broken any of the forum code. Why you ask? Have one of my topics been Locked? If so can you PM me as this is off topic. Or are you concern this thread will get locked.

  • @enf0rcer no I'm saying that because you do a lot of updates with your topics

  • @closinghare208 said in "Counter Play" Solving the problems with CCB's (Rouge Wave) disscusion:

    @enf0rcer no I'm saying that because you do a lot of updates with your topics

    Is that a bad thing? Is there a rule agianst this? As i see it it's encouraged as old treads that revised are locked cause they a necroed. Also this agian is offtopic could you please discuss this topic. I still have alot of things to come and will be adding stuff from this community. Most of the ideas are not my own just the framing.

  • @enf0rcer it's not a bad thing mate

  • There needs to be way less of everything that has to do with CCB's. There are still tons of them everywhere. They still suck .

  • @trickrtreat01 said in "Counter Play" Solving the problems with CCB's (Rouge Wave) disscusion:

    There needs to be way less of everything that has to do with CCB's. There are still tons of them everywhere. They still suck .

    Do You feel as if CCB's are irredeemable?

    Or do simply saying you have a more reductionist approach?

  • @betsill said in "Counter Play" Solving the problems with CCB's (Rouge Wave) disscusion:

    @enf0rcer The only way I can think to sort of balance CCB's is to reduce them to maybe 3 types(IMO peaceball, helmball, and anchorball) and only allow players to hold 1 at a time.

    You say you hate them but chose the three that have the most drastic impact on ship battles as all three effect everything on the ship.

    Quite honestly, while I have used and have had CCB's used against me, I can only think of a small handful (not even a handful really) of times they actually impacted the final results. Most of the time they just prolonged the battle, or added some comic relief. All CCB's did really was force us to adjust our tactics. Quite frankly, my team still uses a boarding party to drop your anchor and then guard holes on the lower decks if they survive long enough to do that. Because even before we got CCB's we worked on ship battle tactics that included, keeping you off our ship, keeping our ship at a decent distance, but close enough to hit your ship with cannon fire and boarding party, keeping our ship angled to limit your cannons to no shot, or very limited shot, we really didn't have to adjust much to our game with CCB's.

  • As to the OP, I am not sure what the best solution would be. I do think that a potion would probably be best. But I am thinking that the potion would only be for the green CCB's that have a direct effect on the pirate. Not sure that there should be any kind of counter to ship effects from CCB's.

    EDIT: You mentioned counters that other games have, the best counter right now is the same counter you have for regular canon balls, stay our of range of the other ships cannons.

  • Think we know cursed cannonballs are here to stay. I think the first thing that needs to happen is they need to be rare finds. I do not think it makes sense they pop up in the containers at outposts and everywhere around the sea.

    Since the big battles to save all the outposts are over they should be limited to a few here and there. A limit that means that only one, two, or maybe three can be used in a fight. That way the are saved for key moments in a fight and some strategy instead of slinging them over and over.

    Maybe having to many means the curse oozes out onto the ship and crew carrying them. Maybe we learn a way to go to the lab in the cave and make them instead.

    Who is still making them? Was there just a ridiculous stock pile built up? With roaming skeleton ships coming will the use them or good old iron? They probably will have them so maybe cursed cannonballs can only found when we sink their ships and maybe a few were stashed locked in the loot room to be found after defeating skeleton forts.

    I like the idea of having a possible counter measure to them. Maybe there could be talismans we can get the OoS help us make. They would be temporary items. Maybe we could go to shrines or do a little ritual in front of certain paintings to get a temporary blessing to protect us.

    @ENF0RCER I like the idea you are trying to collect good ideas from the community. I think it is ok updating your op with the feedback everyone is giving you. Would be very nice if the community could create and manage a section of the forums to consolidate ideas. Would be nice to have a spot to look to see what ideas the community is sharing and not have a lot of the same posts started over and over.

  • @x-crowheart-x said in "Counter Play" Solving the problems with CCB's (Rouge Wave) disscusion:

    Think we know cursed cannonballs are here to stay. I think the first thing that needs to happen is they need to be rare finds. I do not think it makes sense they pop up in the containers at outposts and everywhere around the sea.

    Yeah that would be a reductionist approach. I'm cool with makink them a bit more rare, there was also an idea to make them a lootable object like chest and skulls.

    Since the big battles to save all the outposts are over they should be limited to a few here and there. A limit that means that only one, two, or maybe three can be used in a fight. That way the are saved for key moments in a fight and some strategy instead of slinging them over and over.

    Yes the CCB spam is an issue. But even making them more rare won't solve just make it less frequent. It will just benfit the crew that has been on longer more of an advantage as it will be less of a disicion for them to make cause they have the balls to spare. Spaming is still an effective tactic by the way CCB effects work as they stack.

    Maybe having to many means the curse oozes out onto the ship and crew carrying them. Maybe we learn a way to go to the lab in the cave and make them instead.

    I like this idea. Infact this is part of my Rouge Wave loot idea as all loot will be "cursed" to an extent granting both positive and negtive effect from hoarding. More on this later.

    Who is still making them? Was there just a ridiculous stock pile built up? With roaming skeleton ships coming will the use them or good old iron? They probably will have them so maybe cursed cannonballs can only found when we sink their ships and maybe a few were stashed locked in the loot room to be found after defeating skeleton forts.

    The answer is the WarSmith. We never really stopped wanda at best we just banished her. Skellition ressuract all the time cause they are cursed. We didn't actually break any curse.

    I like the idea of having a possible counter measure to them. Maybe there could be talismans we can get the OoS help us make. They would be temporary items. Maybe we could go to shrines or do a little ritual in front of certain paintings to get a temporary blessing to protect us.

    This is a good one ill add it to the post.

    @ENF0RCER I like the idea you are trying to collect good ideas from the community. I think it is ok updating your op with the feedback everyone is giving you. Would be very nice if the community could create and manage a section of the forums to consolidate ideas. Would be nice to have a spot to look to see what ideas the community is sharing and not have a lot of the same posts started over and over.

    I'll be doing exactly this when i post my master list of community ideas at the same time i'll be finishing posting the complete Rouge Wave project and i hope the community takes to this format and helps support this effort. I would have done this sooner if i had the time.

  • @theunionjames said in "Counter Play" Solving the problems with CCB's (Rouge Wave) disscusion Updated 11/16:

    All right, here’s my idea for countering CC’s. You keep their current utility, spawn rate and effects without nerfing anything but make them volatile. Jump or take any type of damage while holding it in your hand and it will explode and curse everything nearby. Loading CCs into cannons now takes 2-3 times as long as normal cannonballs (you gotta be careful with those things)! Think carefully before you do though. The enemy can see the bright green/purple glow and smoke as you load. Someone with good aim might be able to hit your cannon, causing the cannonball to burst and curse your ship/crew instead! Or at least shoot the incoming projectile so it explodes harmlessly over the water.

    Added bonus potential for crew shenanigans as you can now curse your mates on long voyages! Plus it might make the blunderbuss more useful as I imagine many pirates with bad aim have a better chance at countering with a random spray than one perfect shot.

    Great idea i have added to the OP. Thanyou for your contribution

  • @enf0rcer said in "Counter Play" Solving the problems with CCB's (Rouge Wave) disscusion Updated 11/16:

    @trickrtreat01 said in "Counter Play" Solving the problems with CCB's (Rouge Wave) disscusion:

    There needs to be way less of everything that has to do with CCB's. There are still tons of them everywhere. They still suck .

    Do You feel as if CCB's are irredeemable?

    That is correct. I do not like them at all. We were on a Brig the other night and used a ballast ball to sink a galleon we were attacking. We took about 13k in loot from them. It felt cheap. I honestly don't know if we would have beaten them in this particular fight without it.

  • @trickrtreat01 said in "Counter Play" Solving the problems with CCB's (Rouge Wave) disscusion Updated 11/16:

    @enf0rcer said in "Counter Play" Solving the problems with CCB's (Rouge Wave) disscusion Updated 11/16:

    @trickrtreat01 said in "Counter Play" Solving the problems with CCB's (Rouge Wave) disscusion:

    There needs to be way less of everything that has to do with CCB's. There are still tons of them everywhere. They still suck .

    Do You feel as if CCB's are irredeemable?

    That is correct. I do not like them at all. We were on a Brig the other night and used a ballast ball to sink a galleon we were attacking. We took about 13k in loot from them. It felt cheap. I honestly don't know if we would have beaten them in this particular fight without it.

    I'm sorry you feel that way. I know their are members in the community who would rather just have CCB's removed as they felt ship combat was perfect the way it was. I belive we won't be getting rid of CCBs so perhaps there are ways to make them more tolerable to the players like yourself.

  • I think CCB were great for the even but should have been removed after or make it effect skeleton ships only. The CCB turns the game into a rock/paper/scissor concept which I hate. Any fixes or ideas to try and counter these will lead to more rock/paper/scissors.

    The greatest part of this game is that everyone has access to the same equipment and abilities. Doesn't matter what you do or where you go, you have the same capabilities as any other player.

    CCB changed that into removing skill from the equation and just having the CCB makes it so much easier to win fights or catch people.

    There was one instance where a friend of mine asked me to join their game because a galleon was chasing their sloop. So I joined and I helped get them away, before I did though they hit us with an anchor ball. I kept them off the boat while we got the anchor up but I had to navigate full speed through some rocks to lose them. If they didnt have that anchor ball, they wouldn't have even gotten close to me.

    Another instance was my galleon vs a brig. We have them shut down because of the CCB's. We were firing 3 different types at a time when they can only do 2. Even then we had a peace ball and they didn't so we won easily since they couldn't fire back. We just kept stacking the effects over and over again, they couldnt do anything. Imagine if we did that to a sloop?

    Rare needs to realize that CCB's helps the 4man ships more because they can shoot them out faster than the smaller ships. Its just too much of an advantage having them and you only have them if you've been playing on the server long enough to find them. You'd be lucky to get 2 CCB when you search the post you are at when you join the server.

    I vote to get rid of CCB all together or make them only affect skelly ships.

  • The blunderbuss cannon would just be an alternative ammo type that you put in the cannons. It would be really good for killing players on ships, but wouldn't deal dmg to ships. the rudder thing is just a hitbox thing that applies the current "helmball" effect.

    I actually quite like this, as it fits more with the core idea of the game 'Skill determines who wins a fight'. At the moment, players who have a lot of time to play can stock up on way more CCs than people playing in shorter sessions. Especially with the current chance to encounter them.

    If you limit it to 3 types of cannonballs that are all equally common, then you can expect everyone to have the three types. Chain balls aimed at sails or masts could work as the current rigging balls, grape shot could act as the blunderbuss (but in a cannon, with a longer rance) without damage to the ship and a normal cannonball aimed at the rudder could act as a helm ball. Perhaps you could aim at the capstan to create the anchorball effect.

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