Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

Correct however your rewards/time of PvP vs PvE overall will always side with PvE this is a fact.

This is not necessarily true. Depends on how quickly a PvE player solves a riddle, finds a chest, kills a skeleton wave. It also depends on what they did in between. It depends on the PvE player's efficiency in finishing the voyage. It also depends on the skill and efficiency of the PvP player. I already addressed this in another post which included a response to you. The notion that PvP is inherently less efficient is specious.

But, what this suggestion does is increase the value of a chest for a PvE player should they turn it in: the chest's reward + the bonus of 50% of the chest's value. So, under this suggestion, a chest is worth 1.5x it is now if you get it via PvP and only worth what it is currently if you gain it via PvP. That is a change in the value of chests based on type of gameplay. And, not only that, but a PvP player runs the risk of what this suggestion claims to be wanting to eliminate for all players - logging off having nothing to show for time invested.

So, in that case, why would a player opt to fight a ship that has chests, and risking wasting their time invested for a play session - especially if they win and then, themselves, get attacked and have that chest stolen... when they can get their own loot via PvE that includes a 50% bonus for that chest which they are guaranteed even if they lose it?

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

This is the first good reply I’ve heard in a while.

Sigh. Talk about losing time invested. Well, if this is the first time you're "hearing it," you haven't been listening.

And, no, I'm not delusional.

pvp is mostly done for the joy of the combat not the loot.

This is an assumption you can't prove. And, even if it is true, the game is designed to allow you to progress through PvP... and your assumption still allows for players doing that. This suggestion means any player trying to engage in PvP to progress will still suffer from the same risk of losing all their progression for a play session that people here are complaining about... and they will receive less rewards for turning in a chest than a PvE player turning in the same chest.

this is not the only suggestion I support adding to the game. I support a PvP faction and PvP rewards however unlike this suggestion, incentivizing PvP without incentivizing PvE will just turn this game worse then it’s current state of shoot on sight. Which is why I can support this suggestion by itself and not a PvP faction being added by itself. I can get behind both simultaneously tho to keep the balance

So, you're okay with the game becoming more unbalanced if the PvP suggestion isn't adopted? Wow. I guess, there we have it.

The reason we are arguing in circles is that, by your own admission, you aren't paying attention.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@lotrmith said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak you said pvp players will get less which is false they get the exact same amounted before.

sigh. Less than. If you are at a job and make the same as the guy next to you... then he gets a raise, you are now making less than him - even though you are making the exact same amount you were before. Understand?

If you are at work someone else gets a raise, you are still making the exact same as before. Your argument is basically that the other guy shouldn’t get a raise because you didn’t? It’s just selfish really

There is an entire socio-economic political debate over the effects of raising minimum wage in a free market economy and the practical effect it has on everyone above minimum wage that doesn't get a raise.

In short, yes. When some people get raises and others don't, the comparative value of the labor and wages of those who didn't get a raise goes down.

Still missing the point that PvP doesn’t do it for the loot they do it for fun.

That's a false generalization and speaking from experience, it doesn't deserve discussion. Players by and large don't engage in PvP just for fun. They do it because of fun and the potential for loot. That's why boats leaving outposts aren't targeted nearly as much as those parked at or leaving islands, or on their way back to outposts. That's why nearly every thread about skull forts and keys is a whiny rant about how it wasn't worth their time because they didn't make out with the loot. But if everyone PvPd only because it was fun, why would anyone complain about forts?

Nice question dodge, by the way.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@lotrmith said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@lotrmith said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

Your answer equates to buyer's remorse and that you want the devs to reshape the game to your specifications rather than theirs.

Good luck.

What in the name of hell are you talking about?

This suggestion would not reshape anything! The vast majority of people in this thread want to fit this idea to the devs specifications! One of the most fundamental aspects of the game is this idea of having physical objects to defend, your loot.. the devs WANT the feeling of risk, paranoia and excitement on the open ocean, and I really enjoy that! As do many others!

This suggestion would NOT compromise that. How can you not understand that? Look back at our ideas, there has been debate over quantity but the key aspect most of us want to hold on to is keeping the loot valuable so that it doesn't affect the current aim of the game! This is completely feasible! The only impact this would have is a positive one. If you disagree, then that's fine, but if you are going to continue this discussion then YOU need to state your reasons. What effect would it have on you which is so bad? How would it negatively impact the game? Why are you SO against it? I don't care what your personal opinion are, I want actual facts or reasoned opinions about how this will impact the game in a bad way.
Go.

As for your more recent post, you haven't provided any arguments other than 'oh you can go to an outpost' or 'look at the horizon more', and I've explained why this isn't a valid argument...

And this game is not meticulously crafted. Get that thought out of your head. PvE CURRENTLY has greater incentive than PvP, that's a fact.

Nobody said that PvE and PvP provide equal incentive. Balance does not mean equality. If it did, I would get a set amount of rep and gold every time I sunk your ship regardless of what you had on it.

Keeping the loot exactly as comparatively valuable after your idea as it is now is your challenge. You have yet to come up with such an idea. All ideas thus far mess with the PvPvE balance of the game. Again, not PvPvE equality, but the existing balance.

Breaking news: ”changing something upsets existing balance “

No single idea can keep everything exactly the same. As stated many times before we support a PvP faction that will rebalance but that is a completely separate idea and therefore shouldn’t be lumped together in this thread.

Glad you're not in game design.

@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@lotrmith Right.. so explain to me what exactly do you mean by the term balance? I'm not with you on that.

You are correct on the idea of PvPvE though, let us remind ourselves that the game is supposed to be a PvPvE experience. Yes players can focus on PvP or PvE if they really want, but to get the full game experience you need to experience both - both are significant parts of the game.. At the moment players with loot are far less likely to do PvP... so it does have a negative effect on PvPvE..

But anyway explain what you mean by balance?

A forest with 3 wolves and 300 rabbits is in balance, despite there not being an equal number of wolves and rabbits.

Currently in Sea of Thieves, there are a balanced number of predators (PvPers) vs prey (PvEers). Anything you do that incentivizes one more than they other upsets that balance.

@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

That's a false generalization and speaking from experience, it doesn't deserve discussion. Players by and large don't engage in PvP just for fun. They do it because of fun and the potential for loot. That's why boats leaving outposts aren't targeted nearly as much as those parked at or leaving islands, or on their way back to outposts. That's why nearly every thread about skull forts and keys is a whiny rant about how it wasn't worth their time because they didn't make out with the loot. But if everyone PvPd only because it was fun, why would anyone complain about forts?

Nice question dodge, by the way.

@lotrmith Exactly, primarily for fun. No one is denying that loot is a bonus, but like you said YOURSELF, it's a POTENTIAL, not a guarantee, unlike PvE. (I mean yes getting it to an outpost is not guaranteed, but finding it is) So clearly fun plays a very large factor for PvP players, or the challenge.

No, not primarily for fun. Hence ships at outposts not being targeted as much, and the constant whines about skull forts. Engage in the discussion without changing the arguments.

@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@lotrmith said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

A forest with 3 wolves and 300 rabbits is in balance, despite there not being an equal number of wolves and rabbits.

Currently in Sea of Thieves, there are a balanced number of predators (PvPers) vs prey (PvEers). Anything you do that incentivizes one more than they other upsets that balance.

Ok... What?... It doesn't matter how many people engage in PvP and PvE.. this isn't a bloody forest this is a game

Ok I'm gonna stop you right there because not only do you not understand analogies but you simultaneously just made the most ridiculous statement in this entire thread.

The balance of PvP vs PvE absolutely, by definition, is all about how many people engage in one or the other, or both, and how often.

@touchdown1504 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@lotrmith said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@lotrmith said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

Keeping the loot exactly as comparatively valuable after your idea as it is now is your challenge. You have yet to come up with such an idea. All ideas thus far mess with the PvPvE balance of the game. Again, not PvPvE equality, but the existing balance.

The "existing" balance is not balanced. Balance (according to a dictionary) 1. an even distribution of weight enabling someone or something to remain upright and steady 2. a condition in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions

A man on a wire can balance with different limbs held out at different angles and lengths. He doesn't have to maintain perfect symmetry.

A lever can remain balanced on a fulcrum without being perfectly flat, and whether flat or tilted, can maintain balance with different weights at different distances from the fulcrum.

In Sea of Thieves, the PvPvE balance is currently maintained despite PvE being more lucrative by a certain margin most of the time.

I'd rather that balance not be screwed with by bad ideas from worse players.

@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@lotrmith said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

Ok I'm gonna stop you right there because not only do you not understand analogies but you simultaneously just made the most ridiculous statement in this entire thread.

The balance of PvP vs PvE absolutely, by definition, is all about how many people engage in one or the other, or both, and how often.

Like you said earlier, nice dodge. And no, it really makes no difference. This change is NOT going to make players suddenly start gunning for each other and suddenly switch the balance to loads more PvPers..... players will still be happy continuing voyaging as normal it's just if they get sunk, it won't be such a deflating experience. If they see another ship, they will be more prepared to fight... and will have more fun with it as it won't be on their mind that if they lose, they will walk away with a big fat 0. They will still make a LOSS remember, but it won't be so crippling. How are these bad things? Please tell me.. I just can't understand how you're so dismissive. :/

Also if you are going to engage in the discussion I'd appreciate it if you didn't just ignore my points from the previous post or this discussion will go nowhere.

I mean when your opening premise is complete and utter garbage nobody should be bothered to read the rest of your rants.

Brevity is your friend.

@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@lotrmith

I mean when your opening premise is complete and utter garbage nobody should be bothered to read the rest of your rants.

Brevity is your friend.

Right. So you are dodging. You come to a point where you can't argue and instead of being mature and having the approach 'hmm you know I hadn't thought about that. That's true.. but have you considered this?..' you bail. Unbelievably stubborn, purely because you don't want to see change.

Oh, and balance does not matter. If ALL players on a server wanted to engage in both PvE and PvP activities that is not going to affect the game badly at all. In contrast, the current system discourages players who have loot from engaging in PvP activities even if they enjoy them, and creates an atmosphere of negativity surrounding PvP players and their actions, and the loss of loot. This is not healthy for the game.

There is a reason there are not masses of ships in every server and Rare have balanced the game in such a way that player interactions will have the potential to occur every 15-30 minutes. This is dependent on ship NUMBER, not a player's game play preference or a players actions. This amount of time is what Rare decided as it gives players who are completely against PvP a chance to escape, and allows each encounter to be as unique as possible.

Here is a reference: http://uk.ign.com/articles/2018/02/13/sea-of-thieves-doesnt-have-a-maximum-or-minimum-server-size

Again, dependent on ship NUMBER, not whether individual players prefer PvE or PvP activities and what they would choose to do on meeting another ship.

I refuse to reply further unless you say something constructive which will begin with you acknowledging my points on how this change would also greatly benefit PvP, and stating why you agree or (probably as you're so stubborn) disagree just for the sake of disagreeing.

Can you condense your argument please, for real? Every time you respond it is page long rants.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@lotrmith If this bonus xp also came out with an equivenlent xp bonus on stolen loot being turned in would you be opposed to it?

If it is on turn in for either party I don't see it changing anything. If the guy who digs it up gets the bonus right away and the guy who steals gets the equivalent on turn in then it is ripe for exploitation.

So, no, actually. I also don't see the need for a PvE bonus in the first place. The game already heavily favors PvE and the balance is extremely delicate. I don't see the need for a bonus anywhere.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@lotrmith said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@lotrmith If this bonus xp also came out with an equivenlent xp bonus on stolen loot being turned in would you be opposed to it?

If it is on turn in for either party I don't see it changing anything. If the guy who digs it up gets the bonus right away and the guy who steals gets the equivalent on turn in then it is ripe for exploitation.

Not on turn in for both parties only on stolen loot aka loot that was part of a voyage that you didn’t have and not shipwreck/skull fort. Not really exploitable i mean I guess if you team up with another crew and 1 gets 50% and 1 gets 150% but I don’t see that happening a whole bunch seeing as the people who do all the work still only get 50%.

The point is it would keep the balance between PvP and PvE and satisfy the logging out with nothing problem. so would you be opposed to it?

I don’t want to favor PvP or PvE I want to allow players to engage in both and still log out at the end of the day feeling at least somewhat accomplished

If you want to log out feeling accomplished, turn in more often. If you're upset about the occasional zero profit session, that's part of the game.

Also re: exploitation. I dig up a chest. You dig up a chest. We swap chests. We both get the dig bonus and the stolen turn in bonus.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@lotrmith said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@lotrmith said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@lotrmith If this bonus xp also came out with an equivenlent xp bonus on stolen loot being turned in would you be opposed to it?

If it is on turn in for either party I don't see it changing anything. If the guy who digs it up gets the bonus right away and the guy who steals gets the equivalent on turn in then it is ripe for exploitation.

Not on turn in for both parties only on stolen loot aka loot that was part of a voyage that you didn’t have and not shipwreck/skull fort. Not really exploitable i mean I guess if you team up with another crew and 1 gets 50% and 1 gets 150% but I don’t see that happening a whole bunch seeing as the people who do all the work still only get 50%.

The point is it would keep the balance between PvP and PvE and satisfy the logging out with nothing problem. so would you be opposed to it?

I don’t want to favor PvP or PvE I want to allow players to engage in both and still log out at the end of the day feeling at least somewhat accomplished

If you want to log out feeling accomplished, turn in more often. If you're upset about the occasional zero profit session, that's part of the game.

Also re: exploitation. I dig up a chest. You dig up a chest. We swap chests. We both get the dig bonus and the stolen turn in bonus.

But if everyone took you advice and turned in more often pvp would be even less rewarding no?

Yes but both crews would need end a voyage at the same island at the same time otherwise they would have to spend time sailing back to each other thus spending more time balancing out potential rewards and risking getting attacked. Benefits of this “exploit” could include a legendary pirate helping out a newer player. Doesn’t have to be all cutthroat and thievery.

But someone could also attempt this “exploit” and get backstabbed in classics pirate fashion as well. :) PvP bonus :)

Exploits are exploits and always best identified and removed before implementing features that would introduce them.

If people turned in more often there would be more activity at outposts, and also players would be less skittish in general. More encounters in general but with less loot on board could balance out. (The difference with this argument here is that stolen loot retains its full value, before anyone tries to twist that around.)

@graiis said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak you're misunderstanding the bonus. It isn't some multiplier. I get the voyage complete fanfare and then my rep bar ticks up like 10 percent of the ring.

Oh, I see. But you do realize that isn't what the suggestion is in it's current iteration. They are asking for 50% of the loot value for the entire voyage as a bonus. They weren't going to go for 10% of the loot value for a voyage, they're certainly not going to go for a mere 10% of a level's value.

It's an interesting idea, but as you level up, you need to do more voyages to gain levels and the chest/skulls become worth less reputation and, eventually, you'd get more reputation at Voyage Complete than you would turning in the loot for the voyage. Eventually, it would be more efficient to just do the tasks and leave the loot... at the higher levels, you'd level up faster and with less risk.

@touchdown1504 Touched a nerve?

@i-am-lost-77 When would you get the bonus? You'd have to turn in the loot to get it? Yes, I would oppose that, for obvious reasons.