A Word from your Boatswains

@murkrage

I mean no offense in what I am about to say:

Honestly matey, your stance on this and the fact you are willing to die on this hill defending it is part of the problem. You haven't experienced it, so it doesn't exist. That's incredibly narrow minded and it's the type of behaviour that's only going to make things worse.

You are fighting incredibly hard to get your point across that toxicity doesn't exist simply because your view is limited to your experience. Toxicity is alive and well on the seas and it's ridiculous that people have to deal with it.

Being dismissive of other peoples opinions. I might consider this toxic. What should Rare do about you?

@fishst1ck One thing i'd like see improved, is streamers using Bans as a threat publicly. If they're being harassed of course they should report it. But using it as a weapon to "win" the court of public opinion, against the toxic other is not appropriate. And especially when it gets thrown out for every random person who spawn camps someone or is a bit rude, its not really keeping to the tenets of the pirate code in my opinion.

1. The Sea Calls To Us All

I think we could all stand to remember that more.

@fishst1ck said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@troubled-cells said in A Word from your Boatswains:

I dont think the SOT "community" or anybody's community for that matter is to blame.

Personally I'm a great believer in individuals being accountable for their own actions.

But unfortunately there are stances out there that wish to make others guilty by association.

I feel this is just as bad as any initial toxicity itself.

Ahoy @Troubled-Cells!

While I agree with you that individuals should always be accountable for their own actions, public figures and companies cannot use that as an excuse to escape their own responsibilities. Although they cannot be held accountable for the actions of their following, they are responsible for setting an example and promoting the values they stand for. If they fail their responsibilities they at least share part of the blame in my opinion.

For Rare as the owner of the game that claims to have "one of the most welcoming communities", it would mean that they do everything within their power to uphold their values and set a good example. Which aplies to their own employees, their own streams, the streams they associate themselves with and the players playing their game. To make sure everyone upholds to their "family friendly game" values they would have to make make it crystal clear to everyone that ever boots up the game what they expect from them and what will happen if they don't adhere to that. Following that up with making sure people behave accordingly without exception by either speaking up or dealing out punishment. To say it mildly I think Rare has some room for improvement and therefore shares blame on the toxicity in their community.

For public figures (streamers, twitter personalities, youtubers) it also means they're responsible for their influence on their community, although they do not make the rules or have the administrative powers Rare has. In similar fashion though it means they should show the behaviour that they themselves claim to value as it will definitely be copied and speak out against actions from their following that they don't agree with, especially if it's done in their name. If they fail to take that responsibility they do share the blame for the toxicity in their community.

What I do agree with is your guilty by association part as I don't think public figures should be banned if their community misbehaves. However I do support Rare stopping a partnership, unfollowing or however they stop being associates with that figure if they deem the person not responsible enough or just simply not behaving in their best interest. This however comes down to Rare having to be very clear what they expect from people that they associate themselves with.

Signed,
Captain FishSt1ck

Hold up. Now Correct me if i'm wrong but are you saying Rare didn't suffeiently discourage hassment because they didn't end there partner ship with Pace22 even tho Rocco himself didn't think it was Pace's fault. Am I understanding this right. Cause if i am on point your basically saying Pace22 should effectivly be canceled due to someone elses actions. Actions inwhich he nerver part took in or ever instigated as there is zero evidence of this.

If this is indeed your stance i totally disagree with you for so many reasons.

@murkrage

So, in order to move forward: what could we consider to be toxic behavior? Let's align on that :)

I dont think that's possible. I mean outside of targeted harassment, especially outside of the game. We can all agree that has no place in the community.

Beyond that though. I think what people are tracking as toxic, is really more like a simplified version of people trying to explain what frustrates them about the game. And minor level immaturity. And in game, people taking out there frustrations on who they see as the other side, using whatever means they have.

Because if you see the game, as say a way to just relax and sail around a bit. Then obviously the biggest problem with the game is the psychopaths' who kill you for seemingly no reason. Where as if you see the game as a way to prove your skill, then obviously the biggest problem is the babies who want everything to be easier just for them. And you can say something like this for every different perspective on the game.

So like, while some people will be able to think about how the game itself could be changed to effect behavior in different ways. Or things that could be added that would change the balance of the ecosystem, etc. Some people also just end up framing the problem as being about other players primarily. And then theres disagreements about what language is appropriate, etc.

And while, I can agree that certain ways of talking about issues and the community are more constructive then others. Considering the fairly strict rules, already. Yet generally commendable job by the mods of keeping conversations on track. If what you're talking about is not extremes of toxicity, that I think we all are against already, including Rare, who has always been actively engaged in fighting the problem. But rather just the general broadening of perspectives on the forums, and in game. Then I don't think we're gonna agree on what amounts to toxicity.

And personally I value authenticity higher then positivity. I would rather people feel comfortable expressing their frustrations, even if they don't really have an understanding of the game and other things enough to have the tools to really dig into it. Without feeling like they're gonna get banned for it.

@murkrage said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@dekeita said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@murkrage

I mean no offense in what I am about to say:

Honestly matey, your stance on this and the fact you are willing to die on this hill defending it is part of the problem. You haven't experienced it, so it doesn't exist. That's incredibly narrow minded and it's the type of behaviour that's only going to make things worse.

You are fighting incredibly hard to get your point across that toxicity doesn't exist simply because your view is limited to your experience. Toxicity is alive and well on the seas and it's ridiculous that people have to deal with it.

Being dismissive of other peoples opinions. I might consider this toxic. What should Rare do about you?

It's always extremes with people like you, isn't it? 😂

Which, to be fair, is a commonly used argument. Because what is 'being toxic'? Everyone can, and will, have their own interpretation on this. Which, again, is fair because there's no real explanation as to what is deemed toxic or not.

Let me try and put into words why this posts exists and why the whole "You called me a noob, that's toxic so now you should get banned" spiel is silly: let's say I'm making you a great meal but alas I've made you something you don't like.

So the next time you come over for dinner, all I've got for you is a drink. You ask me why? I tell you: Remember, you didn't like that meal so naturally you don't like all food so I didn't make you anything.

It's pretty much that. It's not a all - or nothing - thing. Obviously calling someone a noob, or saying to git gut, or even trashtalking isn't actually toxic. It's those that use slurs, harass players and do all those things that are on the other side of the spectrum that we're actively using our voices against.

So, in order to move forward: what could we consider to be toxic behaviour? Let's align on that :)

This isn't about extrems. @Dekeita was illstrating a point on how what you say matters when advocating something cause it can be used agianst you can be dasily highjack by by actors to promote things your not in favor of. Infact this already happened in this tread were i literally had to define what was and was not toxic to somepeople.

Look we both agree harassment/bullying of anykind weather it's targeted via txt or verbal abuse is unacceptable and will be dealt with. This is the toxic bahavior we are agianst. We should always be vigilant and proactive to migate and deter these actvites.

But when start using such phases like zero tolerence polices and Toxicity you run into issuses as these denote certain ideas you would be agianst.

Now what your fighting and advocating for is noble and it's good to take a stand. But be careful less your moral grandstanding comes back to bite you in the rear.

Finally now thats cleared up i would like to discuss possible community events with sponships for donation of victem as well a maybe a community PSA series. We can do proactive things. Lets have this convo.

@troubled-cells said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@fishst1ck Glad you agree.

Although if the streamers content is rated appropriately most spicy content is fair game In my opinion.

If someone dont like it, dont watch it, simple.

I do feel like the "influence" part is still a bit of a cop out / back door on personal responsibility and agency though for some.

I hate to bring up the Rocco situation ....again

But I dont see pace as the guilty party here.

Beerslol rightfully got barred from future partner events due to his own alleged actions if true, I'm going to assume after investigation it is.

Other streamers were impersonated with look a like tags / fake / alt accounts, with the intent of getting the legit streamer disciplined by directing crude speech at rocco whilst tagging pace in the comments, performed by trolls, it's weird how rocco is emphasising the content of the messages but not the full context of the source.

Rare dealt with the situation and deemed the case closed.

It should have finished right there.

But rocco has decided to go public wanting more, directly from pace in some attempt at moral virtuosity.

This is the line for me, all she has now is a disagreement on moral judgement and responsibility, a difference of opinion on how or even if he should respond at all.

I personally feel that he isnt at all obliged to if he so chooses.

I just wish people would think, before putting stuff out there, if they know that they cant take the valid criticism.

I second this statment. This ecaplsates our viewpoint very well. Althou i think Rocco didn't know better and wasn't prepared to deal with trolls or a very salty competive pirate on full tilt perhaps due to being somewhat sheltered by his Moderator? As use terms like gaslit when people told him to let it go and it wasn't that big of a deal as normally good advice not to feed trolls. How he was unaware of this as a streamer already is beyond me but he felt wornged and unheard and just wanted Moral Validation sadly giving the Trolls excatly what they wanted. This is a very tragic end extending this to Pace would just make things worse.

@fishst1ck said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@enf0rcer said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@fishst1ck said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@troubled-cells said in A Word from your Boatswains:

I dont think the SOT "community" or anybody's community for that matter is to blame.

Personally I'm a great believer in individuals being accountable for their own actions.

But unfortunately there are stances out there that wish to make others guilty by association.

I feel this is just as bad as any initial toxicity itself.

Ahoy @Troubled-Cells!

While I agree with you that individuals should always be accountable for their own actions, public figures and companies cannot use that as an excuse to escape their own responsibilities. Although they cannot be held accountable for the actions of their following, they are responsible for setting an example and promoting the values they stand for. If they fail their responsibilities they at least share part of the blame in my opinion.

For Rare as the owner of the game that claims to have "one of the most welcoming communities", it would mean that they do everything within their power to uphold their values and set a good example. Which aplies to their own employees, their own streams, the streams they associate themselves with and the players playing their game. To make sure everyone upholds to their "family friendly game" values they would have to make make it crystal clear to everyone that ever boots up the game what they expect from them and what will happen if they don't adhere to that. Following that up with making sure people behave accordingly without exception by either speaking up or dealing out punishment. To say it mildly I think Rare has some room for improvement and therefore shares blame on the toxicity in their community.

For public figures (streamers, twitter personalities, youtubers) it also means they're responsible for their influence on their community, although they do not make the rules or have the administrative powers Rare has. In similar fashion though it means they should show the behaviour that they themselves claim to value as it will definitely be copied and speak out against actions from their following that they don't agree with, especially if it's done in their name. If they fail to take that responsibility they do share the blame for the toxicity in their community.

What I do agree with is your guilty by association part as I don't think public figures should be banned if their community misbehaves. However I do support Rare stopping a partnership, unfollowing or however they stop being associates with that figure if they deem the person not responsible enough or just simply not behaving in their best interest. This however comes down to Rare having to be very clear what they expect from people that they associate themselves with.

Signed,
Captain FishSt1ck

Hold up. Now Correct me if i'm wrong but are you saying Rare didn't suffeiently discourage hassment because they didn't end there partner ship with Pace22 even tho Rocco himself didn't think it was Pace's fault. Am I understanding this right. Cause if i am on point your basically saying Pace22 should effectivly be canceled due to someone elses actions. Actions inwhich he nerver part took in or ever instigated as there is zero evidence of this.

If this is indeed your stance i totally disagree with you for so many reasons.

That's not what I'm saying or my stance, I have no bone to pick with any particular streamer and have never seen a stream with either of those people so I don't have any information that would support that.

I just wanted to point out that both gaming companies and public figures might not be accountable for the actions of their communities but they definitely have influence which comes with some responsibility.

Rare in this case is responsible setting the correct boundaries for their game and making sure people color within those lines, while a streamer for example has more control over the way people play because of their own playstyle/use of words which can indirectly color their viewers opinions. Not handling that responsibility when it comes to toxic behaviour will look like condoning it and therefore increasing it.

It would be irresponsible of Rare to work with or associate with people that don't share their values or that handle their audience irresponsibly as their main goal should be to nurture the inclusive community they claim to want. As for the situation you're describing, I understood from @Troubled-Cells that was all dealt with and closed. The only part that disgusts me about that was how quickly the internet can show it's darkness and go from a game to making people scared to be in their own house, that is not on the streamer though.

Oh ok. I completly understand and agree with you. Your absolutly correct.

@fishst1ck

That's is not on the streamer though and also not on Rare, but I just wished that both of them acted responsibly and quickly and shared how disgusted they are with the situation instead of staying silent about it.

Theres probably legal reasons for this in both cases.

@dekeita said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@fishst1ck

That's is not on the streamer though and also not on Rare, but I just wished that both of them acted responsibly and quickly and shared how disgusted they are with the situation instead of staying silent about it.

Theres probably legal reasons for this in both cases.

I think there also business reason as well as this will hurt both Rare and Pace22 brand which is why Pace22 took action agianst Rocco.

@murkrage said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@enf0rcer said in A Word from your Boatswains:

Look we both agree harassment/bullying of anykind weather it's targeted via txt or verbal abuse is unacceptable and will be dealt with. This is the toxic bahavior we are agianst. We should always be vigilant and proactive to migate and deter these actvites.

But when start using such phases like zero tolerence polices and Toxicity you run into issuses as these denote certain ideas you would be agianst.

Nowhere did I say something about a zero tolerance policy. Nor did the Boatswain statement. I should know, I wrote it and I was very careful in the wording to make sure to make the point that it's not about zero tolerance.

Because I agree, you will absolutely run into issues when you start using phrases like zero tolerance. Which is exactly what happened, for whatever reason. It starts arguments like 'calling someone a noob' or 'git gut' are toxic. Of course they are, but that's okay because there are degrees of toxicity and the statement is about the degree we all seem to agree on (thankfully).

Think of it like stealing. We can all agree that stealing is bad. We can all agree that stealing needs to be punished, but how harsh depends on the stealing. Someone stealing a million dollars / euros / pounds will most likely be facing time in jail, which is a suitable punishment.

Someone stealing a candy bar from a gas station, however, is still stealing but there's no reason to punish them the same way. A fair warning will do the trick, even if they end up stealing candy bars another couple of times.

@NoFears-Fun I'm so proud of what just happened

I didn't mean you specfically but i did see that somewhere. But like i said we seem to agree.

Anyway i would like to have this conversation

@murkrage

I'm so proud of what just happened

I really shouldnt ask, But care to elaborate?