A Word from your Boatswains

Imagine.

@murkrage said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@bugaboo-bill said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@enf0rcer it's linked above by Thor
And leads you to Twitter where this is linked

https://t.co/lpQBmm9EUE?amp=1

@enf0rcer

For the record: the Boatswain statement is NOT specifically about the situation regarding Rocco. It's about toxicity in our community as a whole. Asking for proof of toxic behaviour in our community is like closing your eyes or looking the other way. It's very clear for a lot of people that toxicity, more often than not, rules our seas.

I'm not closing my eyes to toxicity by asking for proof cause i don't see that behaviour outside open crews. People have different understanding of what toxic behaviour is. Such as calling someone a noob and telling them to git gud isn't considered toxic bahaviuor to me as i'm a bit of a competive guy. Now i understand some players feel differently.
Agian I'm not saying toxicity doesn't exisit in this game. I'm asking for any evidence that SoT is uniquly Toxic or has a mojority of toxic player in the community. You may belive it does from your experiance but everyone experiance is different thats why proof is required.

Lastly this post was indeed a response to rocco and the main harassment was txt and twitter msg which is and has been a problem for poplar streamer regardless of games. This is drama caused by fame an is what sells so i don't see this as a game issue at all. I do belive that beers guy was tilted which caused him to act out of line but this was in arena mode that is meant to be taken competively and that what you get. He did however got what he deserved he wasn't professional. Competive mindset and its issues. Everything stated should have been expected. I see nothing unique and Rare did what needed to be done. I feel bad for rocco but this call out to the community was unessary IMHO.

@drbullhammer said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@enf0rcer calling someone a n00b or telling them to git gud is toxic. You're insulting them based on their skill level. The only reason to do that is to antagonize them. You can be very competitive and still be respectful without talking to people that way. Banter is fine, but that requires both parties to be able to dish it out and take it in a playful manner.

It's a game the only difference that matters is skill. I'm not stopping you from playing. Like i said to me beening toxic is calling someone a srub and telling them they don't deserve to play this game. Even then that a spreate issue from harassment and bigotry.

Infact Microsoft Acknowlage these very phrases as acceptable game banter so while its your opinion your jusrt wrong.

@drbullhammer said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@enf0rcer it can be allowed and still be toxic, so no, I'm not wrong.

Agian difference of opinion unless there is some evidence that calling some a noob is toxic that all it is. If MS says it isnt on xbox live then it isn't i have proof you don't ergo your wrong.

@trlalon said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@troubled-cells sagte in A Word from your Boatswains:

There is a big problem at the moment with users creating fake/alt/imposter accounts.

The people creating these are doing so for the sole purpose of getting the person they are impersonating banned, by using toxic language and hacks.

These accounts usually have a subtle change to the gamer tag they wish to impersonate, for example, adding a extra character or replacing a character with one that at first glance can easily be mistaken as a result of the in game font, for example replacing a L for a 1 or I, where some fonts can make these appear very similar.

I would urge you to take a look at the following videos.

MiddlePegLeg
Choby
Bay Thanger

As a result of what is a very major severe lack of due diligence, users have been and are still falsely being targeted by trolls with the intent of having them removed from the game.

[Off topic]
This is exactly the reason why normal game devs don't let user videos and screenshots count.
Only thing that should ever count as proof are logs from a 3rd party anti-cheat software, nothing else.
Single screenshots might as well just be forged, no need to use accounts with fake names here.

Honestly, I find it kinda outraging that we have some rules about not harassing, using racist slurs etc. which are quite vague regarding the threat of consequence and then it can boil down to them being enforced by user videos.
This only works for admins of private servers like in Battlefield, but issuing a global ban with just a user video as evidence is not acceptable imo.

Tbh I kinda fear the Damokles' sword that one day I'll encounter people that are trolls by heart and decide to f me up badly by forging evidence against me.
Sure, I might not be a great target like more known players, but why shouldn't this happen to me as well? The door is open for that...

Letting user videos count results in just what you mentioned.

[On topic]

I disagree for banning people just for being toxic, racist... by video evidence.
This should only be allowed to be recorded by a designated 3rd party anti-cheat software that might as well just filters some bad words from the chat and issues warnings with the exact threat of consequence.
Not some wibbly wobbly phrases that make you question whether you'll be banned already after the very first offence recorded or not...

Sure, this can be circumvented to a degree, but still better than opening the door for people that deliberately accuse people wrongfully to get them banned.

About the streamers, I barely find words for this.
You scored a great victory against them? You must be either cheating or stream sniping then.
Not to mention that they seem to be a bit privileged over some rules about behaviour in the game (those rules not related to cheating) in comparison to regular players.

@Thor-von-Blitz Let's be honest: All rules that are not gathered under the NEVER section are pretty worthless, as they are more suggestions and don't even include any threat of consequence. Suggestions that when you follow them, you shouldn't fear the consequences of the NEVER section.

Only those of the NEVER section seem to be really relevant in terms of keeping yourself in the game, as vague as some consequence threats might be.

I agree about the imposonation issue but just how easy it is to fake a screen shot or video from exactly? If a report system was built directly into the game and did this it wouldn't be an issue at all. Now i'm sure there methods to indentify forged evidence also. But you feel confident about the consequences so i would like to more about this issue from you.

@trlalon said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@enf0rcer With "forging" I meant screenshots, because you can edit them much easier without being detected as fake. For videos the amount of effort to do so would probably be out of bounds...

What people do to get other people banned in videos without forging skills involved is for example exchanging letter like capital "i" and minor "L", numbers... depending from the font, just to name an example here. This is a rather common phenomenon in the gaming scene, just that in the other fps I play this doesn't matter because no one will issue a ban against you as it's a user provided evidence. It might just damage your reputation in the community and result in a witch hunt which is already bad enough though.

Thing is, by reviewing user videos you are entirely dependant from the review skills and the mercy (see the rules issue) of the admin that gets it on his table.
Things might also be taken out of context.
The time of incident, server, player IP etc. is not logged.
People might have already changed their gamer tag so the guy you want to ban by name can't be found anymore (as other data are not available).
I don't know here to what degree XBOX name changes can/will be followed here but still, it wouldn't be waterproof when this incidence happened.
Or worse, someone else maybe has taken his place in the meantime and will get banned instead. Like for games you need an Origin account for.

3rd party software on the other hand can't be fooled in that matter because it'll save a complete log so no one can be banned for the offence someone else sommitted.

I see. Thankyou for this valueable insight. It was enlightening and i learned alot. This could use it's own post.

[mod edit]

@triheadedmonkey said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@enf0rcer Your post has been edited as it goes against the Forum Rules and Pirate Code.

ALWAYS:

Be courteous. Don’t insult players you don’t know. If humour is the intent, remember that this can be lost or misinterpreted online, and words can very easily offend. Be mindful of what you’re saying and if someone asks a question, see if you can help them out as you’d appreciate being helped out yourself if the roles were reversed.

Name calling, personal attacks and using derogatory language against Community Members, Rare Employees, Global Moderators or Deckhands is not acceptable. Using such language will result in a warning, then temporary ban from the Forums and a final warning. If the action is persistent or increasingly aggressive, a permanent ban from the Forums will be issued.

Please read and abide by the Forum Rules and Pirate Code in future.

Thank you.

Hey bro i can't illistrate a point ethier. It wasn't ment to be offensive.

@sir-lotus said in A Word from your Boatswains:

[mod edit]

10/10, most mature response ever. A+, would read again...

you're just proving our point. This community needs to do better, how hard is it to act like decent human beings? We can all disagree without insulting each other. Let's all try to do that.

Appearently you missed the point altogether.
You can just say somthing is toxic witout proving proof. All were doing is sharing opinons and stating them as fact. Nobody else is willing to providing any evidence or proof. So there is none. You give me proof i'll take the L. Else you just worng.

@sir-lotus said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@enf0rcer I always thought common sense and human decency would be enough, but i guess i'm wrong then.

Frist of all common sense isn't common as different cultures have different ideas what that is. Agian this is why dilpomatic immunity as a concept exist.
So what one person veiw as decent is different. Also how some percives an act as indecent or decent can be different the how the particpatent of the act intended.

just an fyi, saying "sharing opinions" and "stating them as fact" sounds a bit weird. It doesn't really work that way...

Your right. But that what these people on these fourum are doing. There making statments of opioin without providing proof and contine to argue as tho it is fact.

Anyway, better than arguing about something that clearly i won't be able to explain to certain group of people, what do you all think would be the way to go from all of this? Any ideas on how to bring back more positivity into the community and limit the negative stuff?

Well i definitly have idea's. Agian i have to state Frist thing to do is have a discussion and make the case that this community is overly toxic. You can't just make that claim and say it's obveoius. In the case it is proven to be an issue we can the attack the root causes of the issue. I will gladly give ideas to solve this then.

There no point trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. I want to encourage everyone to be safe but to also learn and grow. If anything we have an issue with player refusing to learn and grow from the recent talks i had.

Agian i'll restate my point saying "noob" or "get gud" has been acknolaged by MS in there TOS as "Acceptable Game Banter" aka not toxic. Wearther you belive it's toxic or not is irrelevent and simply your opinon. The only reason to claim that the majority of this community is toxic is you belive that game banter is toxic which the majority of xboxlive dissagrees with you.

@nofears-fun said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@enf0rcer said in A Word from your Boatswains:

Well i definitly have idea's. Agian i have to state Frist thing to do is have a discussion and make the case that this community is overly toxic. You can't just make that claim and say it's obveoius. In the case it is proven to be an issue we can the attack the root causes of the issue. I will gladly give ideas to solve this then.

There no point trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. I want to encourage everyone to be safe but to also learn and grow. If anything we have an issue with player refusing to learn and grow from the recent talks i had.

Agian i'll restate my point saying "noob" or "get gud" has been acknolaged by MS in there TOS as "Acceptable Game Banter" aka not toxic. Wearther you belive it's toxic or not is irrelevent and simply your opinon. The only reason to claim that the majority of this community is toxic is you belive that game banter is toxic which the majority of xboxlive dissagrees with you.

I guess to your point about proof, I would ask for the proof that the majority of xboxlive disagrees with him? Not saying it may or may not be true, but you are throwing information out as fact.

The proof lies in MS C.O.C as everybody has to agree to it and MS enforces it that way is proof. I'm not throwing any info that isnt fact. Would you like me to link you the C.O.C cause i thought this fact was un questioned.

As for the majority being toxic, I don't believe that the majority is toxic, but I would say the level of acceptable toxicity is at an all time high. Certainly, the people being toxic are being far more toxic as they have ever before. I believe this is because they see their favorite streamers getting away with some pretty offensive stuff and think that what probably should be considered toxic is in fact not toxic at all.

This seems to be more of a streaming issue then a game issue as those that watch the stream donn't nessarly play the game. Althou i have watched a bit of stream i don't see Pace22 as anything toxic. Now summit G well now thats a different story and an arguement could be made.

Now to say that the toxic players are acting even more toxic is an entirely different statment. Now i don't know how one comes to that conclusion but if you feel that toxicity is being encouraged you would have to elaborate. MS and Rare have taking actions if the argument is that their action were insufficient then one must provide a solution with evidence of a better outcome.
If you have this i'll be happy to hear you out.

Edit: Apperently the original link no longer funtions as MS constantly changes. So ill link this artical. As it the closest i could find. But Noob and Git Gud are terms that are not bigoted or form of harassment.

@nofears-fun said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@enf0rcer Sorry, but I was under the impression that you are stating the majority of the xboxlive community agrees. I think everyone knows that the terms of service are very clear on this. That does not mean everyone abides by them. Or that even the majority for that matter. That was my only point.

Understand the confusion. I belive we both agree. I was mere stating if you agree to the C.O.C you agree what toxicity is not that the majority follows it. But if the majority did not agree MS would quickly change it and there pratice. But you seem to get my point.

As for the level of toxicity, I would say it comes from experience. Playing since nearly launch, with many thousands of hours played, my experience is much more different now than what it was in the beginning. Though, to be clear, I do not experience toxicity or as I would define it that often. But when it does happen, it is definitely more hard core than it used to be. The attacks are much more personal now than they used to be.

I sorry to hear this. Unfortunately this has not been the case for me. The amount of salt i recive ingame has stayed consistant if not less. I haven't recived any such racist or targeted attacks really.

As for specific streamers, I rarely watch any, except when things occur that bring them to the spotlight. I would agree that Summit seems to be pretty vile and most definitely crosses that line. As for Pace, I would say he sometimes bends, but probably never actually breaks the line. Though I don't think that is why he is under some fire now. And certainly I do not watch them all, or even know many others outside of those two. Being the bigger ones, they get more attention I am sure.

Even so i think this is a product of streaming culture itself. I rarly stream so i don't encounter this. But still players are conflating what happened to rocco which indeed was harassment by an unknown perportraiter with fake accounts and a unfortunate incedent with a salty non professional player in a sponsed event. Using this to then preach victem hood cause they were spawncamped and called noob.

@tehstepford said in A Word from your Boatswains:

i dont consider myself overly toxic. im not foul-mouthed to kids, i dont intentionally try to ruin your tall tale, i dont go out of my way to make you feel miserable. yet, for some reason, it almost feels like i am part of the this so-called toxic crowd.

Yes i belive like myself are part of this crowd.

...maybe the problem currently plaguing the community isnt toxicity, its the culture of victimhood as currency that is struggling to take hold.

the result for many (both in-game and IRL) is what can only be described as 'empathy fatigue'. im tired of hearing about what offends you or how you feel. ive developed a resistance to weaponised appeals to 'compassion' and 'decency'. im honestly at the point these days that tolerance-shaming and the like probably brings the opposite of its intended result.

I belive you have hit the nail on the head.

@murkrage said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@enf0rcer said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@murkrage said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@bugaboo-bill said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@enf0rcer it's linked above by Thor
And leads you to Twitter where this is linked

https://t.co/lpQBmm9EUE?amp=1

@enf0rcer

For the record: the Boatswain statement is NOT specifically about the situation regarding Rocco. It's about toxicity in our community as a whole. Asking for proof of toxic behaviour in our community is like closing your eyes or looking the other way. It's very clear for a lot of people that toxicity, more often than not, rules our seas.

I'm not closing my eyes to toxicity by asking for proof cause i don't see that behaviour outside open crews. People have different understanding of what toxic behaviour is. Such as calling someone a noob and telling them to git gud isn't considered toxic bahaviuor to me as i'm a bit of a competive guy. Now i understand some players feel differently.
Agian I'm not saying toxicity doesn't exisit in this game. I'm asking for any evidence that SoT is uniquly Toxic or has a mojority of toxic player in the community. You may belive it does from your experiance but everyone experiance is different thats why proof is required.

Lastly this post was indeed a response to rocco and the main harassment was txt and twitter msg which is and has been a problem for poplar streamer regardless of games. This is drama caused by fame an is what sells so i don't see this as a game issue at all. I do belive that beers guy was tilted which caused him to act out of line but this was in arena mode that is meant to be taken competively and that what you get. He did however got what he deserved he wasn't professional. Competive mindset and its issues. Everything stated should have been expected. I see nothing unique and Rare did what needed to be done. I feel bad for rocco but this call out to the community was unessary IMHO.

Again: This statement is NOT specifically about the situation regarding Rocco.

I mean no offense in what I am about to say:
Honestly matey, your stance on this and the fact you are willing to die on this hill defending it is part of the problem. You haven't experienced it, so it doesn't exist.

I never stated toxicity doesn't exist. Infact i speficly stated that toxicity exist in every online game community. SoT is no exception. Question remains is it More Toxic then others? If this not about rocco what is this about? You guys are stating thats this is about toxicity and a streamer getting off.

I am not saying that calling someone a noob or telling them to git gud is considered toxic behaviour. To me it isn't and to most it isn't.

Good on this we agree.

This goes far beyond that. I'll share the exact same words here as I did in the Deckhand topic:

You are absolutely allowed to talk about specifics, but the Boatswain post is not about anyone specifically.

If you want specifics, here’s an example: while playing two weeks ago we were greeted with a bunch of profanity and sexual harassment towards multiple people (including one of our own), both in voice chat as well as text chat.

Obviously this person has been reported, but they are still out there sailing the seas.

I’m not saying everything deserves a ban right away. Plenty of games use a warning, temp ban, ban system. For a lot of games this works extremely well as players don’t let it get to that permanent ban as often.

You are fighting incredibly hard to get your point across that toxicity doesn't exist simply because your view is limited to your experience. Toxicity is alive and well on the seas and it's ridiculous that people have to deal with it.

Look if people are experiancing actual harrasment then i agree with you. However Rare already bans players and MS bans chats. Now it seems as tho you feel this is insuffeint i would like hear your reasoning an better solution. We can have this convo.

Agian i never stated that toxicity and harassment doesn't exist or is not something to be dealt with. I merely stated if you belive that SoT Community is uniquely to blame i wanted proof of this so we can determine the cause.

Without data there is no way to tell how bad the issue is or what is the cause as so far only Rare and MS knows. If you want to start a campign to figure this out maybe that would be possible?

@troubled-cells said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@enf0rcer said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@murkrage said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@enf0rcer said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@murkrage said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@bugaboo-bill said in A Word from your Boatswains:

@enf0rcer it's linked above by Thor
And leads you to Twitter where this is linked

https://t.co/lpQBmm9EUE?amp=1

@enf0rcer

For the record: the Boatswain statement is NOT specifically about the situation regarding Rocco. It's about toxicity in our community as a whole. Asking for proof of toxic behaviour in our community is like closing your eyes or looking the other way. It's very clear for a lot of people that toxicity, more often than not, rules our seas.

I'm not closing my eyes to toxicity by asking for proof cause i don't see that behaviour outside open crews. People have different understanding of what toxic behaviour is. Such as calling someone a noob and telling them to git gud isn't considered toxic bahaviuor to me as i'm a bit of a competive guy. Now i understand some players feel differently.
Agian I'm not saying toxicity doesn't exisit in this game. I'm asking for any evidence that SoT is uniquly Toxic or has a mojority of toxic player in the community. You may belive it does from your experiance but everyone experiance is different thats why proof is required.

Lastly this post was indeed a response to rocco and the main harassment was txt and twitter msg which is and has been a problem for poplar streamer regardless of games. This is drama caused by fame an is what sells so i don't see this as a game issue at all. I do belive that beers guy was tilted which caused him to act out of line but this was in arena mode that is meant to be taken competively and that what you get. He did however got what he deserved he wasn't professional. Competive mindset and its issues. Everything stated should have been expected. I see nothing unique and Rare did what needed to be done. I feel bad for rocco but this call out to the community was unessary IMHO.

Again: This statement is NOT specifically about the situation regarding Rocco.

I mean no offense in what I am about to say:
Honestly matey, your stance on this and the fact you are willing to die on this hill defending it is part of the problem. You haven't experienced it, so it doesn't exist.

I never stated toxicity doesn't exist. Infact i speficly stated that toxicity exist in every online game community. SoT is no exception. Question remains is it More Toxic then others? If this not about rocco what is this about? You guys are stating thats this is about toxicity and a streamer getting off.

I am not saying that calling someone a noob or telling them to git gud is considered toxic behaviour. To me it isn't and to most it isn't.

Good on this we agree.

This goes far beyond that. I'll share the exact same words here as I did in the Deckhand topic:

You are absolutely allowed to talk about specifics, but the Boatswain post is not about anyone specifically.

If you want specifics, here’s an example: while playing two weeks ago we were greeted with a bunch of profanity and sexual harassment towards multiple people (including one of our own), both in voice chat as well as text chat.

Obviously this person has been reported, but they are still out there sailing the seas.

I’m not saying everything deserves a ban right away. Plenty of games use a warning, temp ban, ban system. For a lot of games this works extremely well as players don’t let it get to that permanent ban as often.

You are fighting incredibly hard to get your point across that toxicity doesn't exist simply because your view is limited to your experience. Toxicity is alive and well on the seas and it's ridiculous that people have to deal with it.

Look if people are experiancing actual harrasment then i agree with you. However Rare already bans players and MS bans chats. Now it seems as tho you feel this is insuffeint i would like hear your reasoning an better solution. We can have this convo.

Agian i never stated that toxicity and harassment doesn't exist or is not something to be dealt with. I merely stated if you belive that SoT Community is uniquely to blame i wanted proof of this so we can determine the cause.

Without data there is no way to tell how bad the issue is or what is the cause as so far only Rare and MS knows. If you want to start a campign to figure this out maybe that would be possible?

I dont think the SOT "community" or anybody's community for that matter is to blame.

Personally I'm a great believer in individuals being accountable for their own actions.

But unfortunately there are stances out there that wish to make others guilty by association.

I feel this is just as bad as any initial toxicity itself.

I completly agree with you as i feel exactly the same way.