More ships and balanced crew sizes

Somebody mentioned to me in game chat that there is a 6 person ship coming. I never check the insider forums or even play insiders so i dont know of anything like that on the way.

However i dont think a bigger crew sized ship would be that good.
We struggle to get a competent galleon crew as it is.

If we are getting a new ship with a bigger crew it needs to be slower than the smaller ships otherwise other crews wont stand a chance.

I could live with giant Man’oWars and their increased crew numbers so long as my ship can outrun it most of the time.
Otherwise it will just be a sea of Man’o’wars with little else.

@c4ptblu3

2 ship variants for the same crew size, usually just ends up as 1 is better than the other and the only one you see of that type.

How exactly would you distinguish between the two and having them both be not only viable but unique in a way that is actually making it a proper choice and not just one is the lesser version?

I dont think we necessary need more ship types, but if we could customize the 3 ship we have so there is more variant of the same ship.

Ex. the sloop could sacrifices it's 2 cannon for a single forward/backward facing cannon.
or have no cannons for more speed.

Galleon could move 2 cannons below deck for fast reload an safety against kraken an so on, but will fill faster if water gets to the 2nd deck.

The ship we have could be so different an act like different ship if we could customize the layout for what we wanna do.

@cotu42 sagte in More ships and balanced crew sizes:

@c4ptblu3

2 ship variants for the same crew size, usually just ends up as 1 is better than the other and the only one you see of that type.

How exactly would you distinguish between the two and having them both be not only viable but unique in a way that is actually making it a proper choice and not just one is the lesser version?

I think it's relatively simple to balance two ships so that every version has a little advantage, but also a downside compared to the other. Doesn't need to be huge differences there, mainly the cosmetic/design changes.

It depends on your playstyle then, which you find better. It was just a suggestion , that they could differ in handling or speed, it doesn't need to come down to that. Imagine the interior is designed differently, so the barrels (cannon balls, food, planks) are in other places on the ships. In a Brigantine you have easy access to cannon balls and planks, the barrels are straight behind the stairs. So the Junk for example could have better access to the food barrels and the cannon balls are further away. Or for Galleon and Frigate, while the Gally has its cannons on the top deck and the cannon balls in the middle deck, the frigate it optimized for quick combat, have cannons and cannon balls stored in the middle deck. But if you want to get to the food and plank barrels, you need to go all the way down to the bottom deck.

All in all, I don't have a problem with only cosmetic changes, so just other designs of the ships but speed and handling stays the same for each ship/crew size.

@cotu42 One could trade off speed for more firepower, while the other could be faster but less cannons. Doesn't really work on a sloop, since we can't have less the 1.

Imagine this.
Brigantine has 2 masts, 2 cannons per side and 1 deck.
Or you could take The Frigate. 2 masts, 3 cannons per side and a captains quarters.

Look at the Frigate design here. Both would be 3 man ships but both would have pros and cons.

@mferr11 @C4ptBlu3

I just don't see how it will just not become one is better than the other and all at the cost of resources to in essence add nothing or even worse making things obsolete.

• The additional cannon on a 3 man, why would you need it? Why would you sacrifice speed, turn speed or anything for it?
• More speed, why wouldn't you pick that?
• No cannons... why would you ever want to be defenseless.

What would be a suitable balance? All I see is development resources being spent to create a ship that would either be first pick or second. I have seen many games that have choices that are nearly identical and everyone uses one over the others because of the one is just a little better, how would they prevent this.

It isn't that I am against it by default, but it must be a detailed worked out idea. Just stating add alternatives without specific distinctions showcasing the reasons and ideas is not something I can stand behind.

My idea is, because correctly Rare talk about balance, we should analize the problem from a different point of view.

I say let's keep the ship as they are right now and add a new 6 man ship. You say impossibile due to balancing, not really.

To make it fair let's trade upside down, give this new 6 ship man handicap instead of find a balance.

Before sot i used to play lot of Blackwake and that's my idea.
So let's make a ship that is basically built like a galleon but a bit wider and longer.

Handicap to balance (some ideas)
4 ladders 2 x side
4 must
2 anchors that work togheter only to bring it up, to put it down when one is fully down the other one will follow.
Top deck 1 cannon per side
Mid deck 5 indoor cannons per side. Indoor it means they are completly still, can pan up or down or left right, they will just shoot straight with a little movement up and down to adjust (less then a third from today's cannons)

Like this the combat of this 6 man ship will be different, is a real war machine but require good skills on the wheel in order to unload all cannons, more then 2 ladders to have more chance to board, 2 anchors and 4 must to make it difficult.

I think something like this will work, just some brain storming for you.

@archaell

PvE also requires to defend yourself. Whether you PvP or not, we also have krakens, megalodons, skeleton ships and hopefully more to come.

We are pirates... in the end one should be able to defend themselves even if you are not out hunting and avoid player conflicts.

@cotu42 I was just trying to justify his/her point. I'd much rather they just added another ship.

@c4ptblu3 Do you mean split servers types into 1-2, 2-3, and 3-4 crew sizes with 2 ships(potentially more in the future), or just add 3 ships types?

@ultmateragnarok Op said to help balance crew sizes, so unless they split servers like arena it's likely to make balance worse rather than better.

@ultmateragnarok You have a weird idea of balance imo lol Crews of equal skill the sloop loses in terms of sailing alone every time, followed by galleon, then brig.

@ultmateragnarok A sloop of equal skill can't escape a galleon or brig of equal skill. maneuverability is only worth so much when

1. Anchor drops are a thing.
2. grapple hooks are a thing.
3. the sloop is only faster in a range of like 20 degrees and that speed advantage is so small that the distance gained will be lost in almost an instant if the sloop travels in a different direction for more than a very short time.

If you add grappling hooks(used for combat), cursed cannonballs, and the extra players on the galleon or brig to shoot cannons or launch at the sloop, you should be able to see how outclassed the sloop is. 1 advantage in the form of better turning against everything else does not a balanced ship make.

@betsill

Sloop can always get away, especially from a galleon. Brigs are actually the most difficult to shake because they can make up easily in sections where they can just straighten out.

I do not care how good a crew is, even solo am more than capable to sail around and make it very difficult to follow me. Naturally a chase only really ends when the opponents give up. A galleon cannot sail as closely to rocks, islands and turn the way I do.

Battling a galleon is a different beast and if they are good then I doubt I will ever sink them and eventually they will sink me. I assess the capabilities of a galleon crew before committing to a battle because of it.

@mferr11 adding a ship requires one to assess the value of it. Just like all the rest it isn't an isolated addition.

A man-o-war larger ship might be something at a point to offer an even larger crew size, but just a different version of a 2, 3, 4 man ship is very hard to do while not making one of the two obsolete, for 90% of people.

@ultmateragnarok The brigs are not the least maneuverable. Ships lengths are 32,40 and 60 meters. The sloop definitely has an advantage in small gaps, but it's so uncommon to be near a place that you can use that it's really not worth mentioning. The anchor drop is a good point that I forgot, but not the best advantage for a sloop since anchor turning is more likely to screw you than help you by putting you too close compared to a normal turn. Your goal with a sloop vs another ship is to stay as far away as possible. 1 ccb, 1 dmg disable, 1 explosion that knocks you overboard, 1 grappling hook, 1 player that makes it onto your boat, and it's over a vast majority of the time(unless the galleon or brig crew sucks). If I could swap all the galleon stats over to the sloop I would. Galleon can escape a sloop MUCH easier than a sloop can escape a galleon.

@betsill if an anchor turn screws you, you simply used it at the wrong strategical moment or needed to take a risk as they were near for some reason.

Anchor turns are mostly used when out of line of sight of the enemy, so they cannot mirror and usually right after forcing them around an obstacle by being nimble and small. Meaning they are trying to get to the other side while you head back or at a 90 degree angle, based on location in the world.

When you are being chased, you should be moving towards those rocks, islands and such. If your goal is to escape, it means you have to make it difficult for them to follow you so they give up. Chases go as long as they are stubborn enough to keep following you. If they don't have to do anything to be perfectly tailing you they will, the map ends at some point and you will adjust and so will they. You should not wait till then to start forcing them to adjust and work for it. It even limits your options...

@cotu42 yeah lol obviously. That's the way it is for pretty much every action you take. Works=right choice, doesn't work=wrong choice(or you were doomed anyway).

@betsill after they catch you, it is up to how good can you fight. When you no longer can run, you might need to fight a little till you see a spot to flee again... usually doesn't take that long. You just need to survive the heat.

It isn't like the moment they get near you instantly lose, you can prolong the fight and just focus on your own survival over them sinking as you are just looking for a way out! Grab a blunder and sword, guard those ladders and turtle it out if needed and reset. You will be some supplies down, but yeah that is the cost.

Sometimes they outplay your or you messed up, in the end sometimes you will lose. That is to be expected, you cannot always win.

@cotu42 everyone knows this lol except when caught solo against a galleon it's not just about being better. It's about being overwhelming better than everyone in that crew. There are more very low skill players in SoT than in your average multi game, but that doesn't put the odds in your favor. Like I said before I would much rather have the stats switch on galley and sloop as a primarily solo player. A galleon can escape a sloop much easier than visa versa and that should tell how "balanced" ships are.

@betsill said in More ships and balanced crew sizes:

@cotu42 everyone knows this lol except when caught solo against a galleon it's not just about being better. It's about being overwhelming better than everyone in that crew. There are more very low skill players in SoT than in your average multi game, but that doesn't put the odds in your favor. Like I said before I would much rather have the stats switch on galley and sloop as a primarily solo player. A galleon can escape a sloop much easier than visa versa and that should tell how "balanced" ships are.

Overwhelming better? Sorry but unless I am a pro gamer, this is just not true. If you are fighting them you need to be overwhelming better, if you are just sailing and escaping... you just need to be good at sailing.

You can escape with a galleon easier while solo? That makes no sense at all, I have met people that prefer a brig over a sloop solo. Yet have never heard of someone stating; Lets go Galleon Solo! It is better than a sloop.

I do not get what your point is with the stats are not balanced and you want them swapped? You would much rather have the stats of a galleon over a sloop, you can play a galleon solo if you think it is better. Personally the added time to turn, raise, lower, angle sails, raise the anchor, the distances one needs to walk... sounds horrible to me. The stats of the ship are more than just the how much water does it take to fill, how fast it goes and how fast it turns. It is also the stats of 720 degree turn of the wheel, 3 sails, bigger target, more space, etc.

If you believe a 1 or 2 man should be able to out muscle a 4 man group... I think you have wrong expectations, pirates are equals.

@cotu42 I was said the galleons stats... not the galleon itself. So the galleons speed, sail turning, etc, but put on the sloop. Obviously? I wasn't talking about sailing the galleon solo... I can do that right now if I thought it would work. It would have to keep it's slow turning speed and you couldn't add it's anchor speed to sloop, cause that would be just crazy. My point is that a galleon can escape a sloop easily(because of how much faster it is and in how many more directions) while its much harder for the revers(since the sloops speed advantage is pretty much only in a straight line and so minimal an advantage that you can't put hardly any distance between you and a chasing ship).

@jofjjay 13% is not major. It's the lowest % advantage of all the advantages and % means even less at the lower headwind speeds. Compared to galleons advantage over sloop which is 35%(brig has 50% advantage lol) with cross wind, 35% into crosswind, and 23% with tailwind. When you realize that the 13% is worth much less that the 35% at higher speeds you should be able to see how outclasses it is. In case you can't though. Sloop has 13m/s advantage over galleon into wind, the galeon has a 54m/s advantage over sloop in cross wind. Meaning that if you travel into headwind for 20 min a galleon can remake that distance in just under 5 min(brig can do it in 3.5min). Not a complete apples to apples because the speed differences are slightly different under different wind conditions but it's close enough and makes my point.