Boarding ships & and naval combat

  • SaintGermain449
    Castaway

    Before I start I would like to express my deep grattitude to Rare, and acknowledge the fact that this game has made a quantum leap as far as game development goes compared to what it was like one year ago. I really enjoy Sea of Thieves, and will continue to do so for a very long time.

    My issue right now is the naval combat, and the fact that most of the combat I've experienced so far is basically people jumping from one ship 1 click away, and then casually boarding your ship with minimal effort, and then blunderbust you into oblivion. Not only is this completely undermining the PVP experience, but it's also demoting the whole purpose of naval combat.

    One simple solution would be to add a function that enables you to raise the ladders, so that people won't be able to just swim from one ship to another and board your ship. This would force people to engage in proper combat in order to conquer your ship.

    Another solution would be to add some kind of "bargaining/initiation feature"
    Based on what we know about pirate's when engaging other pirates is that most boardings were unresisted. Usually the pirate vessel overtook another ship by hoisting their flag and shoot across the bow to show them they mean business. They would then order the opposing crew's captain to come across to their ship, and then order his crew to step down. The attackers would then board the ship to prize their loot. In theory, this would enable players to initiate, and the ones being initiated on would have the opportunity to either comply, perhaps strike a deal, continue living, or fight back. While climbing aboard unopposed, the way I think it should be is to go by boat (or swim), and then climb up the shrouds and ratlines, or by ladder. The ladder is lowered when the victims have decided to capitulate. Initiation & bargaining would have to be a unanimous decicion on both parties.

    Now, if there is no initiation, and combat has been initiated, the only way for someone to board your ship would be from ship to ship, either by jumping, or swinging aboard on a grappling line hooked to the yards. In order to do so, a ship would have to get close enough.

    Would love to hear what you guys think. Of course, this is only my experience, and I might be totally wrong about it all. But I honestly believe some of these suggestions would be a great contribution to the game, in some way.

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  • KommodoreYenser
    Lord
    Insider

    @elanlai Another option and....hear me out on this....

    Blunder guard your own ladders when you hear someone shoot out (very different distinct whistle sound and visuals aka no smoke trail compared to a cannon ball) OR hear splashes/sound of a boarder swimming/grabbing ladder, OR sight/hear a mermaid when all your crew is aboard.

    There are literally no less than 2 cues you are about to have someone on your ladder in literally ANY situation of boarders. It is the defending crew's fault if someone gets aboard.

    I have boarded crews of all skill levels, the difference being those who are better at the game usually never let me up the ladder without getting blundered unless they are in full repair mode.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    I do believe most pirates rely too much on boarding to win when it's not even really necessary, IMO.

    It's always been my belief that boarding, while a valid tactic, is not the best tactic. It's just the most fun! The reason I say that it's not the best is because of the risk involved. As you leave your ship to board, your own ship becomes less effective in virtually every way, from steering, shooting, repairing, etc. Furthermore, there's no guarantee that you will get on board or even close to the opposing ship. You might get spotted, shot, blown up (if you have a keg), eaten (by a shark), knocked off (a ladder), or simply defeated even after boarding before you can really do anything meaningful. It's a high-risk, high-reward scenario. But then again, as I said, that's what makes it so much fun! That's why I think it's the popular go-to choice.

    I'm more conservative when it comes to naval ship combat. I like crews that stay on board, keep the ship working at maximum efficiency, and defeat other crews using smart and accurate use of cannons with cannonballs, CCBs, chainshot, firebombs, and yes, even blunderbombs (which are criminally underrated).

    It's safer, smarter, and can actually guarantee a sink. Boarding won't do that unless you can get your hands on a keg. Boarding is mostly just a delaying or decoy tactic, not necessarily 1 that leads to a sink. A sink is what defeats the enemy, because it removes their ability to effectively respawn and continue the fight.

  • wagstr
    Master
    Insider

    @ElanLai

    Boarding is quite useful for dropping anchor and causing general mischief with pursuers when solo or when you don't want to fight for whatever reason and also good for defending holes on enemy ships to speed up a sink.

    For these two reasons alone it should remain I reckon.

    That's not even taking into account the issue of falling or getting knocked of your own ship while it's filling up with water.. You really need that ladder yourself sometimes!

  • SaintGermain449
    Castaway

    @wagstr I get what you're saying, but the fact that people can cause more havoc by swimming to an enemy ship and board it, rather than engaging in proper combat is just silly to me, and doesn't really serve this game and its features any real purpose. When boarding someone's ship by swimming 2 clicks away is more efficient than utilizing the tools you have on your ship that are basically there for that exact purpose of conquering someone, then I find that to be a problem.

  • SaintGermain449
    Castaway

    @kommodoreyenser I hear you, but the problem is that people choose to swim and board a moving ship whilst in combat, because they find it more exceeding, rather than engaging in proper naval combat. If that's the case, then there should be something that makes "true" naval combat more enticing and fun. If pirates are notorious for boarding ships using ladders on YOUR ship, then you should have the option to raise those ladders to prevent someone from using them, especially when it's literally the main thing people tend to do in combat, or at least make it harder for people to do it.

  • Stundorn
    Castaway
    Insider
    Founder

    @ElanLai

    I agree, but you wont find anyone here who supports this and i'm tired to discuss it.
    The most love the pirate to pirate fights more.
    The pvpers play TDM in Arena Forts or Islands and leave the ship combat completely aside.

    It's a shame, but this is what it is.

    Boarding is too easy, boarding can be exploited by ladder tapping and harpoon boarding.
    Boarding defense with a blunderbuss doesnt work in more than 50%.
    In my experience more than 5 out of 10 get not shot or repelled, but slip through because of latency and hitreg.
    Same issue because bunnyhopping is so efficent.

    Rare should do something about it, but they would lose the hardcore pvpers as their business is to use all exploits and every trick to own others.
    Rare fears the toxic hate campaign of the raging internet mob and streamers.

    Ladders should be raisable and lowerable by a mechanik that needs time like filling water into the barell.

    Boarding should be a skill and reward good cannonshots/ boarding shots.
    Or it would be some good maneuvering skill or you need to ram (bad maneuvering skill).

    As i said, you wont get any support here for this suggestion.
    It will played down and dicussed to no end.

    It's like some like blue and another likes green.

    Boarders are just an annoyance.
    It'd be easy to prevent beeing boarded if the game had not these exploits and latency or hitreg issues.

    Tons of boarders slipped through although they should have been shot and repelled.

  • SaintGermain449
    Castaway

    @bugaboo-bill You make some good points, Bugaboo, and you're probably right. This post might not reach out the way I hope it will, but I thought at least I would address the issue, regardless.

  • wagstr
    Master
    Insider

    @bugaboo-bill

    You mean like press 'F' or hold 'X' and it takes 5 seconds to deploy? I wouldn't be against that necessarily.. There needs to be a balance though..

    For example that means you would not be able to board a moving ship so you would have to wait for a mermaid if a meg smashed you off your own. Maybe just a bottom rung to hold on to?

  • KommodoreYenser
    Lord
    Insider

    @wagstr said in Boarding ships & and naval combat:

    @bugaboo-bill

    You mean like press 'F' or hold 'X' and it takes 5 seconds to deploy? I wouldn't be against that necessarily.. There needs to be a balance though..

    For example that means you would not be able to board a moving ship so you would have to wait for a mermaid if a meg smashed you off your own. Maybe just a bottom rung to hold on to?

    How is a mermaid going to return you to your ship if you have the ladders up? You think those human sized creatures just yeet you up on deck when you are staring at a black screen?

    If they ever implement pulling up ladders I hope they sincerely balance having the safety of not being boarded with the risk of disabling mermaids for that crew until at least one of the ladders are lowered, the same way if you are holding treasure.

  • wagstr
    Master
    Insider

    @kommodoreyenser said in Boarding ships & and naval combat:

    @wagstr said in Boarding ships & and naval combat:

    @bugaboo-bill

    You mean like press 'F' or hold 'X' and it takes 5 seconds to deploy? I wouldn't be against that necessarily.. There needs to be a balance though..

    For example that means you would not be able to board a moving ship so you would have to wait for a mermaid if a meg smashed you off your own. Maybe just a bottom rung to hold on to?

    How is a mermaid going to return you to your ship if you have the ladders up? You think those human sized creatures just yeet you up on deck when you are staring at a black screen?

    Yeh, I normally spawn in staring at the brig or something..

  • KommodoreYenser
    Lord
    Insider

    @wagstr the thing that bugs me is most of these threads suggesting making things easier are created by fairly new accounts and the problem is they always want to make things sway towards making them safer, not having to be alert, and they never consider that there should be a downside to balance it out if they want the upside. This entire game gets balanced around risk/reward.

    Currently 50/50 you get knocked off the ship, you won’t catch your own ladder anyways and be forced to merm back. So having a mermaid for yourself with your ladders up seems super one sided.

    Don’t worry, if your crew doesn’t want to lower a ladder so you can merm, because there might be evil navy seals in the water waiting to pounce, they can always wait until you find a way to die and respawn from the ferry.

  • wagstr
    Master
    Insider

    @kommodoreyenser

    You're are right in what you say.

  • SaintGermain449
    Castaway

    @kommodoreyenser Throwing out statements like that is a bit disingenuous and just pure fabrication on your part.

    The concept of this game is to provide the player of the experience of being an actual pirate, so what exactly is wrong with people suggesting other alternatives that might enhance that experience?. So far, swimming across the ocean, boarding your enemy's ship, spawn killing and repair camping until the ship has sunken is not what I would consider fun gameplay.

    I don't really understand the context in which you are basing your arguments on, to be honest. Nobody said anything about removing mermaids. A player who is knocked of his or hers ship should have the option to port back. Simple as that.

    Having said that, players should have the option of lowering or raising their ladders. Simple feature. If you're incapable of boarding someone's ship because the enemy ship hasn't politely lowered their ladders for you and welcomed you onboard, then you should probably look inwards, and perhaps consider the fact that it is you who is averse to change and innovation because it makes it more difficult for YOU.

  • Ragington
    Rogue

    Nope, not necessary guard your ladders

  • SaintGermain449
    Castaway

    @flintlock-dan You need to justify your opinion a little bit more than that if you want people to take it seriously. Read the post properly, and then give your response.

  • KommodoreYenser
    Lord
    Insider

    @elanlai Lets look at ALL the changes to ship combat over the course of the game.

    • Modular ship damage added: benefits neither attacking ship or defending ship. Both suffer equally from cannon fire.
    • Fire bombs and ship fire damage: benefits neither attacking ship or defending ship. Both can cause fire to each other as well as put them out via water barrels.
    • Chain shot added: Once again, benefits neither side more than the other. Both have access to chain shot and both would have to repair their masts should they go down. Ship type wise this actually nerfed sloops slightly as they only have one mast and a chain shot followed by a solid attack is usually the end.
    • Harpoons added: Benefits the attacker as they can harpoon and reel in defending ships that try to run. Benefits defenders as they can use harpoons to make sharp turns around or behind objects when they are out of sight to avoid chasers (as opposed to doing anchor turns which take more time) Both sides have their pros and cons.

    Now that we have went over all the changes Rare has made to ship combat in the game, lets look at your suggestion to see how imbalanced it is.

    Retractable ladders: Defending ships can pull up ladders to prevent attacking crews from boarding during ship combat or while they are parked at islands to prevent tuckers. Attackers have no ability to lower another ship's ladder to get onboard (which is strange given the only option on another crew's ship you cant mess with is the flag box) Attackers COULD pull up their own ladders but this really has no benefit as an aggressive crew is usually very capable of defending their ladders.

    Now another point of ship combat, outside of a bunch of wraith balls or CCBs, this turns ship combat into "who has the most planks." To some this may sound like fun, to me it sounds like who hoarded the most supplies and you might as well verbally compare the two ships instead of fighting it out.

    To close this out, there are a myriad of other risk/reward balances I could point out like carrying two guns vs sword/gun, or the emissary system, or carrying kegs onboard for attacking others. They all point out the same thing. For any benefit, there is a risk or downside. What is the proposed downside in the benefit of being able to pull up your ladders?

    As far as defending my statement about new accounts suggesting big gameplay changes with no concept of the game's risk/reward balance, your account might have sailed some in December last year and again this month but you have extremely little time in the game comparatively. These threads always come across as a "I got boarded and couldn't defend against a single guy. Plz nerf boarding so I don't get anchored and sink." I play 80% solo and have AVOIDED and REPELLED boarders from brigs and galleons, have gone on TO SINK brigs and galleons and yes, have SUNK TO brigs and galleons. Yet I don't come on the forums to ask they make it easier to defend myself.

  • wagstr
    Master
    Insider

    @elanlai

    You need to learn to use the search function, this gets discussed to death.. Week in.. Week out..

    Bottom line.. mainly new players want it, once they have played for a while, they don't see the need.

  • SaintGermain449
    Castaway

    @wagstr I see a problem, I address it. Simple as that. I'm not going to sit idly by just because some person thinks there's too many people talking about the subject. If it keeps getting discussed, then there's obviously a problem, and one should keep talking about to raise more awareness until it is finally solved. I'm not a new player, so again, you're just making assumptions based on what exactly?

    If you don't like people addressing this topic, then why waste your time complaining about it? If you don't have anything to contribute to the discussion, then go find something else to do.

  • Ragington
    Rogue

    This is not the first time this has been suggested, basically watch and listen for boarders when chasing, have a lookout and communicate with your crew when you see mermaids or hear people climbing ladders.

    Why is it so hard to do that?

    This is not strictly a naval game it's a pirate game...pirates boarded other ships.

    Maybe the next thing we can suggest is wheel chair accessible docks and ramps for ships.

  • SaintGermain449
    Castaway

    @flintlock-dan Yes, pirates boarded ships, but do some proper research on how they actually boarded ships, because swimming hundreds of meters for the sole purpose of boarding an enemy ship using their ladders makes no sense, and is not what pirates did, at all. I even mentioned this in my initial post.

  • Ragington
    Rogue

    This not real life, if you can't guard your ladders than that's a you problem not the games problem

  • SaintGermain449
    Castaway

    @flintlock-dan And what exactly does "guarding your ladders " mean? I would assume that guarding ladders would imply actually raising your ladders to prevent someone from accessing them. That's basically the feature I am suggesting.

  • SaintGermain449
    Castaway

    @flintlock-dan And by the way, nobody is trying to blame anyone for anything. It started as a simple suggestion, but instead butthurt people like yourself are commenting and turning it in to a dispute, which is kind of pointless, and a bit pathetic, if you ask me.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @elanlai said in Boarding ships & and naval combat:

    @flintlock-dan And what exactly does "guarding your ladders " mean? I would assume that guarding ladders would imply actually raising your ladders to prevent someone from accessing them. That's basically the feature I am suggesting.

    Guarding your ladders =

    1. Standing on top with blunderbuss or sword and shooting or slashing (respectively) anybody climbing up, or
    2. Standing back and either shooting them with a blunderbuss to knock them back, or throwing a blunderbomb to throw them off.

    You can keep watch for swimmers, or mermaids and/or listen for unique-sounding cannon shots, repetitive splashing sounds from swimmers, or an even louder splash sound as they climb onto the ladder.

  • Ragington
    Rogue

    No you stand by it with a blunderbuss that's why it's a 1 shot kill weapon.
    Wait for them to climb up and ram it down there throats and shoot.

    No need to raise ladders because boarder is now dead.

  • Ragington
    Rogue

    So what if a player runs there ship into you jumps on your ship and blunder bombs you off your ship and anchors you how will you get back on to plug the holes and to kill the boarder? You can't catch a mermaid because you are right beside your ship in the water. You can't reboard your own ship because you're ladders are up.

    So what do you do smart guy as you hear your ship creaking and the boarder is "Rolls on deck laughing" at you.

  • Ragington
    Rogue

    The only person who is butthurt is you for coming here and whining about getting boarded by a better player and probably getting "Pace22getsunk".

    If you would just pay attention to your surroundings you wouldn't be here right now posting something that's already been discussed in previous threads.

  • doctorfork
    Master

    @wagstr said in Boarding ships & and naval combat:

    @elanlai

    You need to learn to use the search function, this gets discussed to death.. Week in.. Week out..

    Bottom line.. mainly new players want it, once they have played for a while, they don't see the need.

    As a day one pirate, I don't think raising the ladders is a good idea, but I do think naval combat suffers from the current boarding meta. Because it really favors not actually using the cannons as anything but a way to launch pirates first, then once the ship is anchored shoot it down.

    I see it as two problems:

    1. Sinking a ship via cannons takes a LOT of work, and two galleons with reasonably skilled crews will be able to repair a galleon faster than they can sink. In that scenario, barring an external event (meg, kraken, skelly ship, etc) the first ship to sink will only be the one that runs out of supplies.

    2. Boarding is far more effective because there is no penalty for dying in SoT, and even leaving your crew shorthanded for a moment means you're going to do more damage to the ship via distracting opposing crew members than you would be able to do by manning a cannon. The only way to sink a ship is to distract their crew.

    So there's two fixes I would propose to tackle each of these:

    1. Semi permanent damage. If a ship takes on too much damage in a spot, it will always slow leak no matter how much it's boarded up(similar to a mid-deck leak, or maybe the water accumulated from rain). This can only be fixed at a shipwright.
    2. Upon killing a non crew member on a ship, if a pirate interrupts their death animation, they can send the boarder to the brig with 10% health and no items/weapons. At this point, it's an additional 60 seconds of purgatory before they spawn back on the SotD.
  • Rotherzz2932
    Ship Mate
    Insider
    Founder

    I second the idea of being able to lift ladders up to stop people boarding the ship.

    If you play the game just to level up emissary's, complete tall tales or just to PvE and have no interest in naval combat with other players during that session, you should have the option to lift ladders so that it's one less thing to worry about.

    It isn't a bad option to have on ships as if you forget to raise the ladders and you get boarded then that's your fault, however if you raise your ladders and they cant board you, they can still get attack by cannons. and attempt to sink you.

    And no this isn't about people being terrible at the game or being 'butthurt' by getting killed by people who have played the game more. It's simply an easy addition to ships to make life a bit more enjoyable for people who have no interest in PvP during that session.

    Adding the option to roll up and down ladders to board the ship would be a great feature!

  • Ragington
    Rogue

    Okay so you are parked at an island on a tall tale, someone rolls up on you and boards your ship since the ladder is down, he could still either tuck on you, or roll up the ladder and smash the boat against the rocks and just waits for it to sink since you can't re board, what do you do? If you're on the island you can't roll up the ladder because be able to get back on? Maybe sword lunge back on but so can could the boarder?

    what good is having the ladders rolled up if they stop no one from boarding you?

  • RedEyeSith
    Vanguard
    Insider

    I really just don't see a point in this, personally. It won't stop you being boarded as it isn't the only way the pirates can get on your ship. Myself, probably the least common method that I use to get on another ship as it is the most obvious method and very easy to defend against. It isn't that I won't use it at all, but I do find it to be the least effective method.

    As it is also easy to repel this kind of boarding attempts, it is normally not something I have an issue with. I've forced many crews into naval battles that the subsequently lose because they are trying so hard to get people on board the ship. And in the rare cases they do get on I'm confident enough in my skills and the skills of my crew that I know we will win out in most of these conflicts. Of course, I'm willing to engage in some occasional PvP so I get a chance to actually practice.

    Being as this would only close a single niche manner of boarding, and doesn't really protect you from PvP as the ship battle is still a part of that.

    If anything I see this causing more headaches for the crew of the ship than opposing crews.

  • insaiity
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @elanlai
    Guarding your ship is already extremely easy to do. Why do you want to make it even easier? Especially without adding anything as counterbalance.

    For example a counterbalance could be, that if you pull up your ladder and proceed to get knocked off your ship you now cannot get back on it, even with a mermaid.

    Now it would be a risk vs reward mechanic:
    Risk: You might not be able to get on your ship if you fall into the water
    Reward: Almost completely hinders enemy players from boarding.

    And while we are at it, if you want to have retractable ladders, the quantitiy of water that can fit into a bucket should be highly reduced. Because as it is right now, you can keep your ship afloat even if you have every hole possible, you only have to keep on bucketing.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @insaiity said:

    Because as it is right now, you can keep your ship afloat even if you have every hole possible, you only have to keep on bucketing.

    I can attest to experience that this is simply not true - at least most of the time. You're not accounting for how big the holes are, which does make a difference.

  • l Snapper l
    Commander
    Insider

    Why do I see 12 posts over the last month complaining about boarding and the only fix is for ladders to be pulled up? It won’t fix naval combat and I think this small change will make the game boring

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