Sword combat is terrible

  • The sword has been broken for a long time now, I did not expect Season 1 to fix all the problems with SoT but I'm starting to truly believe that they won't fix the sword, it is an absolute gamble to use, combos get interrupted all the time blocking is not reliable at all, I kept saying they need time, I'm sure they'll fix it, surely it will improve, but they show that there is no interest in fixing the combat in this game, I mean I'm not even talking about the hit reg, the sword used to function for the most part back in 2019, now it is completely broken and it is so rare to hit someone 3 times without them interrupting you. I was optimistic that the new update schedule will give them the time they need to address and improve the combat, but I don't think so anymore.

    In one of the past Patch Notes, they actually said the Sword combat is fixed or improved which was completely false... I genuinely hope that they fix the combat in this game because it is what I enjoy the most, And I posted this because I love this game and care enough to do so.

    I know they have to prioritize adding new content over fixing the existing problems with SoT because the majority of the player base are casuals and they don't really care or even notice or what's wrong with the combat in SoT.

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  • @redaulse

    I just wish in times like this that Rare steps out and actually say something...

    "Hello brother. We're here. We listen."

    I can just feel them being so distant over the last 6 months.

  • @redaulse thats all a Hit Reg Problem. Fix that and many other problems will go away

  • @yaboysuy0 That's... not hit-reg at all. Hitreg has existed in the same degree (some debate it was even worse) back in 2018-2019 and sword worked perfectly fine, so that doesn't match.

  • It seriously is. I really wish the cutlass was at the position of either around the first anniversary update or launch. It’s currently terrible and inconsistent. Blocks and combos being interrupted by others, a ridiculous range, etc.

  • I miss old sword so much. X canceling the sword. Lunge canceling. While these things may be deemed 'exploits.' it meant that those that spent the time and effort and hundreds of hours practicing in this game were rewarded for it. Nowadays, players with thousands of hours can still lose to players with less than 300. All because of how the the skill ceiling was made. With 5 slash, being punished for missing a slash. Being able to x cancel the sword. Lunge canceling. All increased the skill ceiling to a level that rewarded the players that spent that time getting better.

  • @turkaspy said in Sword combat is terrible:

    I miss old sword so much. X canceling the sword. Lunge canceling. While these things may be deemed 'exploits.' it meant that those that spent the time and effort and hundreds of hours practicing in this game were rewarded for it. Nowadays, players with thousands of hours can still lose to players with less than 300. All because of how the the skill ceiling was made. With 5 slash, being punished for missing a slash. Being able to x cancel the sword. Lunge canceling. All increased the skill ceiling to a level that rewarded the players that spent that time getting better.

    That's the whole point. The sword is supposed to be an easy-to-use tool that anyone should be able to pick up with minimal effort put into learning dozens of intricate nuances.

    I've heard an argument similar to yours come from people in PlanetSide 2 who solely play with aircraft. In that game, the aircraft meta is exactly the opposite of what you say the sword meta is here in Sea of Thieves. Meaning it's dominated by sweats who put hundreds, if not thousands of hours into mastering intricate physics engine exploits, which enable them to completely and utterly dominate and destroy anyone who isn't on the same level as them.

    It's a major topic of contention since the air-game is the most punishing to try and get into, yet "skyknights" fight tooth and nail against any suggested changes, claiming that their style of play is not only "skillful," but also not hard to learn. This is despite overwhelming consensus that the sheer amount of time required simply to learn - not just to master - the exploits makes the airgame not worth getting into.

  • @blam320 While it takes time to work on these skills and strategies. They were not very widely used, only used by a very small few who took the game seriously.

    I would say its a somewhat poor analogy, because the exploits are not so overpowered that they will absolutely obliterate anyone who doesn't use them. There are counter meta's, such as double gunning, being able to blunder snipe people and cancel their lunge. All these do is add a little more reward. Sword will still be an easy weapon to get some kills with. But in its current state, someone who starting the game 2 hours ago can easily kill someone who doesnt have a very large amount of practice because of how small the sword skill gap is. All it takes is someone to spam m1. And they will kill all but the very small percentage that is actually somewhat skilled.

  • I don't know if it's just me and my crewmates but we've experienced some sword lounges that don't deal any damage upon impact.

    And is it possible to block a lounge with a sword? I've had it happen to me.

  • @uri5718 While I get what you are trying to say, it actually is still hitreg. The reason it isn't as severe or always present when other weapons have it is because the sword has a whole different attack method that doesn't involve a projectile. While issues with sword hitreg are not near as common as guns it can happen and sword lunges are when they most often occur from my experience.

  • @turkaspy said in Sword combat is terrible:

    @blam320 While it takes time to work on these skills and strategies. They were not very widely used, only used by a very small few who took the game seriously.

    I would say its a somewhat poor analogy, because the exploits are not so overpowered that they will absolutely obliterate anyone who doesn't use them. There are counter meta's, such as double gunning, being able to blunder snipe people and cancel their lunge. All these do is add a little more reward. Sword will still be an easy weapon to get some kills with. But in its current state, someone who starting the game 2 hours ago can easily kill someone who doesnt have a very large amount of practice because of how small the sword skill gap is. All it takes is someone to spam m1. And they will kill all but the very small percentage that is actually somewhat skilled.

    Okay, so now you're backpedaling from your initial claims? You explicitly said that learning these exploits "raised the skill ceiling" and "rewarded the players that spent time" learning them.

  • @l-snapper-l What I tried to point out is that the issues arising are inconsistent with the emergence to the accused cause.

  • @l-snapper-l said in Sword combat is terrible:

    @uri5718 While I get what you are trying to say, it actually is still hitreg. The reason it isn't as severe or always present when other weapons have it is because the sword has a whole different attack method that doesn't involve a projectile. While issues with sword hitreg are not near as common as guns it can happen and sword lunges are when they most often occur from my experience.

    I don't believe the problem is entirely hit registration. I have to agree with @Uri5718 here.

    Even when the hits register, the enemy players are still hitting me even though I got the first swing.

    Its almost 100% of the time and I know its a fact because even when I get hit now I can just swing back and hit them. I know its not hit reg because damage is still being dealt.

    I'm wondering if Rare even realizes this or if they changed it without telling anyone.

  • @blam320 said in Sword combat is terrible:

    @turkaspy said in Sword combat is terrible:

    Okay, so now you're backpedaling from your initial claims? You explicitly said that learning these exploits "raised the skill ceiling" and "rewarded the players that spent time" learning them.

    Yes, they raise the skill ceiling, but not to a level where you are forced to use that specific loadout/exploit.

    I felt like you were suggesting it would lead to an area where you are forced to use that specific loadout.

  • @redaulse Honestly October 2019 sword was where it was at. In fact the October 2019 meta was the best meta this game has had.

  • @uri5718 gotcha, makes sense

  • @xultanis-dragon it definitely isn't just hit reg you are right, I just took it as sword hit reg isn't a problem for sword lunge which I just misread

  • While hit-reg is admittedly an issue, as well as the networking, the mechanics to the sword are actually not terrible at all. If you isolate the variables (by understanding that hit reg and network issues are NOT sword issues, but are entirely something more), its gameplay is actually spot-on, and definitely not as simple as most seem to think.

    It has been my long-standing belief that the sword's capability and mechanics are woefully misunderstood. So much so that, every single pirate that I have ever encountered, without exception, has underplayed it. In other words, I don't think the skill ceiling has ever been reached, simply because there are mechanics that most don't use, either because they rely on exploits, simpler methods, or for most, are just wholly ignorant of their existence.

    I, for 1, am happy that most of the prior exploits are gone, because that was not true sword-fighting. That was ice-skating. And pirates don't skate on ice.

    Now, instead of relying on exploits that have you flying across half an island (just ask Peter Pan - pirates aren't meant to fly either), you're actually forced to move, block, dodge, bait, feint, and counter.

    Most pirates, in my experience, either stand still and slash nonstop in the hopes of getting lucky, or charge directly at their opponent - both of which will get you killed. Because of their lack of movement and/or defense, their feathers get ruffled when they're defeated and they try to blame hit-reg or something else. To be fair, of course, some are not necessarily wrong. Still, it's surprising how a simple recording can show the mistakes or poor choices that are made. For that reason, I implore you - if you're ever defeated and in doubt, save a clip, and learn from it. You might surprise yourself.

    Blocking does work - it just takes a lot of skill to use. The issue that most have is that they forget that the block only works from the front, and only to a certain degree. Meanwhile the attack animations cover a larger area and because it's a swing, it can even get opponents behind you if they're close enough.

    Timing is also key. If you don't get your block up, or drop it at the wrong time, it'll cost you. A block only works so long as you hold it, but an attack can still hurt someone long after you simply press the input.

    Angles matter - it's not just the movement either. Looking in certain directions can actually give you an advantage, both on offense and defense. Many a pirate will try to keep you front and center and in doing so, neglect themselves. Yes, it's important to keep your opponent front and center, but if you're not seeking an angle to bypass your opponent's defenses, they will likely beat you. Simply looking left or right can greatly extend your swing or block, with the proper timing.

    Many pirates don't sword-cancel either. Rare made it so you can cancel a sword swing into just about anything. I like to cancel into my firearm, or into a block in order to dodge. Throws pirates through a loop!

    Some, but not all, pirates know how to dodge with the sword (read - not talking about the charge here), but don't realize that the sword dodge allows them to pass through an opponent's space - that means that you should never be cornered or outnumbered in melee. And knowing that is powerful! Sadly, most don't - and that's why they're easily defeated; not by their opponent, but by their own ignorance.

    Virtually no pirate ever uses the running sword slash, because virtually nobody even knows it exists, unless I show it to them - and no, I'm not talking about the charge. If you simply perform the dodge, but replace the jump with a slash, you can extend your reach and speed as you attack (and it's omnidirectional!), but it's so subtle, most either don't do it at all or do it by accident and don't even realize it.

    Then there's the over-reliance on the charge - an incredibly telegraphed, easily avoidable attack that leaves you completely vulnerable on a miss that is too easy to make. It really only ever works if you can bait or distract your opponent in my experience. If they're aware, you're making a mistake.

    Hit reg is indeed an issue, but I don't believe it to be as prevalent as most seem to think. In any case, you gotta fix your issues before you start pointing the finger at hit reg or some other more than likely nonsense notion.

  • @galactic-geek

    The lunge aside, the sword is really broken right now.

    I know how to block, I even put out a video showing that if you don't button mash your attacks and just block, even if the animation isn't showing you are blocking.

    Except the issue I am having is with the combat in its overall state.

    Its just a straight swing fest regardless of skill. I hit you, you hit me, no one has the advantage. Even with dodging.

    I've asked players for duels before with the sword to see exactly how its working at the moment and it is horribly inconsistent.

    Even if you dodge, or side step or do the maneuvers you are speaking of, if the player is even remotely competent with the sword they will still hit you. The other problem is that even if they are not competent, you get 2 or more in the mix and you are just dead.

    Blocks give no advantage. When you block the 3rd hit the enemy is flown backwards away from you, giving them time to negate the stun they have, which even if you try you wouldn't be able to capitalize on.

    If this was original sword mechanics, without the repeated cancellations or the infinite sword lunge, just how the sword used to work mechanically when hitting or blocking or even swinging, I would completely agree that it required great skill to use and it showed when players used the sword well.

    Sword movements weren't erratic, spamming was greatly punishable, dodge or side stepping was used to great results, not to mention you could take on 4 to even 8 pirate sword vortex by just being good at it.

    Sword now is just a pale comparison to what it used to be and even if I get the first hit which is suppose to give me the advantage, thats not how it is working it seems.

    Its almost as if they removed the stun entirely without telling anyone. I would try to suggest its a bug but the silly thing is that even I witness it when I get hit by the sword and I am still able to attack or interrupt the enemy combo.

  • @xultanis-dragon said in Sword combat is terrible:

    @galactic-geek

    The lunge aside, the sword is really broken right now.

    I know how to block, I even put out a video showing that if you don't button mash your attacks and just block, even if the animation isn't showing you are blocking.

    Blocking was designed to be immediate, unlike the attacks.

    Except the issue I am having is with the combat in its overall state.

    Its just a straight swing fest regardless of skill. I hit you, you hit me, no one has the advantage. Even with dodging.

    This, I think, is wrong. If 2 pirates are swinging at each other, 1 will always have the advantage over the other - usually, it goes to whoever blocks 1st, or whoever hits 1st if neither blocks.

    I've asked players for duels before with the sword to see exactly how its working at the moment and it is horribly inconsistent.

    That's because everyone's network connection is different and the way it's setup is very forgiving for lower end connections - certainly moreso than most other games.

    Even if you dodge, or side step or do the maneuvers you are speaking of, if the player is even remotely competent with the sword they will still hit you.

    I don't agree here either. Distance will always be your ally. If they are hitting you, moving away from them can make them miss; if they push towards you, then moving laterally is.

    The other problem is that even if they are not competent, you get 2 or more in the mix and you are just dead.

    If you're not defending or getting out of the way the moment after you're inititially struck by your opponent, then you're a dead man walking.

    Blocks give no advantage.

    They give you every advantage.

    When you block the 3rd hit the enemy is flown backwards away from you, giving them time to negate the stun they have, which even if you try you wouldn't be able to capitalize on.

    Why are you waiting for the 3rd hit? If they attack you, and you block their strike, you can gain the advantage by immediately countering and getting the 1st hit in, and therefore gain the advantage.

    Furthermore, 1 strategy that I neglected to mention in my last post that most pirates yet again never use due to their ignorance was that you can control how far away you get knocked back on that 3rd strike and block. Simply tilt your movement input forward or backward and you can stay close to your opponent for a more effective offense, or bounce further away to mount a more effective defense. Try it! That bounce only puts both pirates into neutral if they both allow for it to happen (by not touching their movement inputs at all - which is what most pirates regrettably do in my experience).

    If this was original sword mechanics, without the repeated cancellations or the infinite sword lunge, just how the sword used to work mechanically when hitting or blocking or even swinging, I would completely agree that it required great skill to use and it showed when players used the sword well.

    Sword movements weren't erratic, spamming was greatly punishable, dodge or side stepping was used to great results, not to mention you could take on 4 to even 8 pirate sword vortex by just being good at it.

    I agree here. There are some elements that I myself miss - chiefly the aforementioned running sword slash, which was far more effective in the early days compared to now (while still useful even now, it was nerfed when the general sword movement gained a speed boost in order to allow sword users to keep up with their gun-toting adversaries. I also miss being able to quickdraw into instantly aiming down sights with a firearm, which you can no longer do - it was a great riposte against the knockback on block. BTW, you can still take on numerous pirates at once.

    Sword now is just a pale comparison to what it used to be and even if I get the first hit which is suppose to give me the advantage, thats not how it is working it seems.

    In some ways it is worse, but in a lot of ways, it's actually much better. First hit still has advantage unless missed or blocked.

    Its almost as if they removed the stun entirely without telling anyone. I would try to suggest its a bug but the silly thing is that even I witness it when I get hit by the sword and I am still able to attack or interrupt the enemy combo.

    The stun is, IMO, what is inconsistent with the sword. Sometimes it works while other times it doesn't - been trying to figure out why that is for a while now...

  • @turkaspy said in Sword combat is terrible:

    @blam320 said in Sword combat is terrible:

    @turkaspy said in Sword combat is terrible:

    Okay, so now you're backpedaling from your initial claims? You explicitly said that learning these exploits "raised the skill ceiling" and "rewarded the players that spent time" learning them.

    Yes, they raise the skill ceiling, but not to a level where you are forced to use that specific loadout/exploit.

    I felt like you were suggesting it would lead to an area where you are forced to use that specific loadout.

    So far the sole exploit I've seen get embraced in the manner you're expecting everyone else to is Sword Lunging across the water, which in and of itself is relatively harmless and simple to learn, but not necessary to become a better player or better combatant. You're suggesting people need to adopt or learn exploits that enhance your effectiveness in combat; you clearly haven't noticed but players tend to try to "optimize the fun" out of games they play. Just look at all the people who burnt themselves out grinding voyages for hours on end when the game launched, then complained about "lack of content."

    If players did as you suggested, and learned these combat-enhancing exploits, they'll be drilled and drilled to the point of perfection, where players who don't understand them won't be able to counter them.

  • @galactic-geek I don't understand, you don't think blocking is broken atm? because it is.

    and when 2 players start attacking each other, whoever hits the other first should be able to complete their combo, and the other player can either block or dodge, they shouldn't be able to hit the other player with the sword.

    combos getting interrupted used to almost not exist, people back then used to have bad internet connection too, the sword got worse over time and it needs fixing.

    The sword used to be better, combos used to work, blocking used to work, now these things don't. when the problems with the sword improve or get fixed, we can all use the sword to its fullest potential

  • I totally agree. the sword combat needs reworked and they need a better cheat detection system. I’ll have somebody slash me with their sword 6 times in like 2 or 3 seconds, while I can only slash once every one or two seconds. People are using macros, modded controllers, or something, and this has happened on Xbox only servers for me, so I think some people are using modded controllers. It’s sad and terrible that there’s a decent amount of cheaters on here, an investment in a better cheat detection system would make players more than happy.

  • this game has so much content now, a lot of amazing and fun experiences to be had, but the problem is with the core mechanics bugs, a lot of players would play this game without getting bored if the core mechanics worked well, and I'm one of them!

    I really do hope that one day the devs come out and say we're addressing hit reg, and that's how we are progressing, we're addressing the sword and this is what we're doing, other than just slap on some sentences at the bottom of every patch note for the past year and just leave us hanging.

  • @redaulse said in Sword combat is terrible:

    @galactic-geek I don't understand, you don't think blocking is broken atm? because it is.

    You can't trust your eyes when it comes to video games - hit reg is the perfect example of this. In online games, there's what you see, what the other pirate sees, and then what the server sees based upon what you both do - it's this last 2 that makes all of the difference. I have seen this at work in the past in other games, but it applies to all of them. I shot a painting off a wall once and asked my teammate if he saw it. He said he saw me shoot, but miss the painting, and according to him, it was still on the wall. Moments later, he turned around and the painting was gone (since the server updated his info).

    I believe the reason why there are so many issues with SoT is specifically because of how generous the game's servers are between pirates.

    and when 2 players start attacking each other, whoever hits the other first should be able to complete their combo,

    They can, and often do - it doesn't mean they can immediately stop their opponent from counter-attacking though - Rare tried that already and it was woefully broken.

    and the other player can either block or dodge, they shouldn't be able to hit the other player with the sword.

    They can already block and/or dodge. And why shouldn't they be able to counter-attack? Oh yeah, that's right - it was already proven to be a broken mechanic.

    combos getting interrupted used to almost not exist, people back then used to have bad internet connection too, the sword got worse over time and it needs fixing.

    The sword actually is better. Hit-reg got worse. Know the difference.

    The sword used to be better,

    Subjective..

    combos used to work,

    They still do.

    blocking used to work,

    It does work, sans networking issues.

    now these things don't.

    They do work, under a stable connection with a good server..

    when the problems with the sword improve or get fixed, we can all use the sword to its fullest potential

    You already can, if you train properly in how to use it effectively (99% of pirates don't bother) while also avoiding bad servers and/or pirates with bad connections.

    Do not be so quick to judge that which you do not fully understand.

  • Welcome to Rare LTC's world of senseless hit-registration problems.

    YES, lunge reg does indeed exist as well as slash reg and block reg.

    Truly annoying and will probably never be fixed, just like bullet hit-registation.

    Sorry to tell you mate.

  • If I'm being honest, I truly have no idea why Rare decided not to revert the sword change considering never once have I met someone that supported this change.

    My best guess as to why they made this change is probably because they'd like their game to be more new player friendly and doing this made it to where the sword requires much less skill to operate deeming it easier for those players who don't possesss real skill.

    Seriously annoying but regardless I doubt Rare will ever bring the old sword back.

    Although me being a proud member of the PvP and competitive sword community, I will give the following tips to those of you that care for them.

    • (SWORD LUNGE WHENEVER POSSIBLE) - Traditional slash fights in this game are obvious rubbish and do not work, learn when and when not to sword lunge and try to utilize lunging as much as possible over the broken slash fights. Sword lunging obviously does indeed have a few bugs but definitely not as many as slashing.
    • (WHEN IN SLASH FIGHTS, JUMP OVER AND MOVE AROUND YOUR OPPONENTS WHILE SLASHING TO AVOID THEM SLASHING BACK AT YOU DURING YOUR COMBO) - It's much harder for an opponent to interrupt your combo when your movement is stopping them from doing so.
  • Games been broken since day one and over time has only gotten worse, so u better get used to it because this games growing so there’s no reason for rare to fix it

  • The irony here is, SoT upholds the PvP game flag, but the core of PvP - fighting, is half-baked, ship combat is nice, melee combat is the worst I have ever encountered in any game, it´s worse than melee combat in The Elder Scrolls series and this is something I thought I would never ever see. Sword combat has been bad before the changes, so it doesn´t matter anyway. I feel like the whole melee concept needs an overhaul. I understand that it is a painful task to accomplish, but I don´t really see any fun in this extremely clunky type of "fighting".

  • Generally a person should post possible solutions to their complaint. What would you propose?

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