Hourglass is Dying

  • You've probably seen the many posts about bad Hourglass matchmaking lately. Many PS5 and returning players are trying out Hourglass, and they usually quit because they only get matched with players who sink them easily. Funnily enough, if you search "Arena Matchmaking" you'll find similar sentiments from the average player during Arena's lifespan.

    Why don't these PvP-focused activities work out? You'd think that players would play Hourglass more, as PvP is a central part of the game. Many have concluded that the average player just doesn't want to PvP in this way. I think the opposite. We know by the Hourglass posts that even the new players are trying out faction battles. Most, if not all of the players I've talked to about Hourglass have told me they've tried it at least once (being a skeleton is quite the conversation starter). The interest is there! So what is the problem?


    The Problem is the Streak system

    As you can see in the graphic, the streak system causes a negative loop. The average player cannot get streaks, so they have miniscule allegiance payouts and don't think the mode is worth playing.
    Here's a quote from Smogon, a community that runs Pokémon Showdown, an online battle simulator that is built entirely off of ranking players with Elo:

    Rating systems provide a form of progression for the player outside of a single battle: a metagame. Just as the Pokémon games have a map to explore and gym badges to earn, it's necessary to give the player a reason to keep on battling beyond the joy of battling itself. Having a skill rating for players to aspire to raise makes things a lot more interesting for players and keeps them committed to the game even as the novelty of simulator battling fades. Hence, it's clear that rating systems are quite important.
    -- scalarmotion, Smogon .com

    This is why every competitive game I can think of rewards players for reaching higher ranks, not defeating a lot of players in a row. It's not only more fair, it keeps players invested.


    To that effect, Hourglass should have a ranking-based earning system (like any other competitive mode). Players are distributed into ranked tiers, and win/loss XP is determined by the ranked tier you're in and the difference in Elo between you and your opponent.
    If you build it like a ledger, you can give rewards per month/season based on your ledger placement, like the other companies.

    That would encourage players to play more than loss farm: loss farming, in its current state, is a method for lowering your ranking and giving you easier future opponents, or just to accrue loss xp faster. If the system was paying out based on your tier, loss farming would lower your tier and rewards. At face value, this seems like a nerf for losing. But, what's really happening is that you're getting better rewards for attempting to win each game. If you're in the perfect tier for you, you're facing more players of your skill level and getting a fairer payout for winning 50% of your games, as you should. This promotes facing players at your skill level and increasing your ranking.

    Adding ledger rewards and daily wins/missions for more allegiance, would bring players back to the mode regularly. A consistent, healthy ecosystem like that brings enough players to the mode that everyone gets more fair matches, and even when they don't, they won't lose the will to play the mode after losing a streak, making things worse for everyone else.
    I think the streak system should stay, just with less impact than the ranking system, so that winning is more about who you defeated, rather than how many you defeated in a row.

    My goal is not to make earning allegiance easier; I think it should take the same amount of time and effort to earn a curse with my system. The key difference is that the journey to get there is less crushing for the average player. If more casual Sea of Thieves players are willing to participate in Faction Battles, that gives Rare more reasoning to frequently add rewards to the mode or give them real story consequences like they were initially meant to. Us competitive players had fun with Arena and we have fun now with Hourglass. But if we don't try to make it a better place for the casual player, then it's going to drop to 3% playtime and be forgotten. Changing Faction Battles in this way is an investment in the future of support for PvP playstyles in Sea of Thieves.

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  • they only get matched with players who sink them easily

    And if they didn’t use hourglass. They will still be sunk by someone with easy

    Hourglass isn’t a competition/competitive mode or a real “battle royal”. It just pvp on demand

    Ask: Do you want to fight someone without sailing around the map? Yes? Use hourglass
    .
    That is all it’s for. The curses are just a small goal but majority of players just want to pvp regardless of the rewards

  • @grumpyw01f said:

    ...Adding ledger rewards and daily wins/missions for more allegiance, would bring players back to the mode regularly. A consistent, healthy ecosystem like that brings enough players to the mode that everyone gets more fair matches, and even when they don't, they won't lose the will to play the mode after losing a streak, making things worse for everyone else.
    I think the streak system should stay, just with less impact than the ranking system, so that winning is more about who you defeated, rather than how many you defeated in a row... My goal is not to make earning allegiance easier; I think it should take the same amount of time and effort to earn a curse with my system. The key difference is that the journey to get there is less crushing for the average player.

    You'll have my upvote every time this is brought up.

    To save myself the trouble, here's what I said last time:

    @theblackbellamy said:

    @grumpyw01f said:

    TL;DR I want a ledger for Hourglass and wanting allegiance to be tied with who you beat rather than how many you beat in a row.

    Arena never had ledgers with rewards, and it desperately needed it, because ledgers alone may have brought in enough activity to warrant support and development.

    I don't see why Hourglass doesn't have its own ledger system. Folks want rewards on the way up to 1000, and if we had rewards based on match wins (or attempts or whatever), it would give players a reason to keep playing. And if it kept track (even in the background) of wins vs length of matches, it might even help weed out players using cheese methods or outright cheats.

  • I agree and i think it is weird that it isn't pointed out more often. The health of the gamemode relies on it being viable for new players to get into and try. As it is currently making actual progress relies on getting streaks which literally works as a snowball for the existing top of the food chain but stunts the casual player base, while this is so easily preventable

  • @theblackbellamy
    I almost feel guilty every time I see you. I feel like I'm farming your upvotes because I know we agree 😅. But we'll keep at it as long as we can! A better hourglass system only helps everyone.

    I realized a few days ago that Arena already had a de-facto ranking system: with 5 crews, there's 5 different payouts you could receive at the end of the battle. Getting better at Arena increased your average placing and reward.
    Arena even had commendations for completing games, getting top 3 and winning. So, players always were striving for these goals. No matter their skill level, they could at least work on one commendation. Most players (myself included) were more focused on earning the Glorious Sea Dog set than getting to level 50.

    When we moved to 1v1s we lost most of the feedback loop that comes from how well you're playing.

    Ironically, Arena also became a mode where steamrolling new players was the way to get ahead. Leading to much the same feedback loop as in my graphic. Thanks, Arena 2.0....

  • Your graphic pretty much sums it up.

    I'm not a competitive PvPer, despite years of playing COD, and never will be in this game. I'm getting on in years, I get bad RSI, and I don't have the reflexes anymore. I've made peace with that. I'm probably just above average for Adventure PvP, only because of experience/knowledge and being good at helming and naval.

    For me, Arena 1.0 was superior, as it allowed players of all kinds to shine. It wasn't just straight PvP and it was a more tactical mode. It's why I prefer a good contested SoSS over Hourglass any day.

    Hourglass is fun when it's a close and balanced fight, but that doesn't happen often and the thought of coming up against high-skilled players (especially those who are excellent at CQC) and losing constantly just makes it very unappealing.

  • @realstyli

    It's why I prefer a good contested SoSS over Hourglass any day.

    The few contested SoSS I've played have been amazing - a wide variety of options for obtaining the skull leads to a very fun experience. I saw plenty of regular players on SoSS for a little while when the SoSS came out. In this case, the SoSS is so extremely easy to find that you could always just change servers if someone was trying to fight for the skull. And that means there's no real clout if you get all the rewards - it's basically just a PvE commendation. Which then makes good PvPers like me stop doing them, as there's no point in playing for a set so easy to get. Which further decreases the % chance that a SoSS is contested. What do you know, another negative feedback loop!

    Another example of a good idea to encourage PvP that was poorly implemented.

  • @grumpyw01f

    Yeah, it really should have given reputation from the start, I think. And when they did finally add some, it was lackluster. It should apply to whatever faction you are representing as Emissary, and if you aren't repping, it should apply to a random faction.

    At least with the game launching on PS5, I'm seeing a lot more players going for the SoSS. Not everyone, but it has certainly increased in the last week or so. Shame a lot of new players don't know how it works though, so I am seeing a lot of abandoned keys and chests as well.

  • @realstyli
    Yeah, a mermaid gem worth 50k is going to turn some heads!

    I think reducing spawn rates to something closer to the FoF is the only way to ensure players will think it's worth fighting over. If you don't see them often and they can give you 125k with emissary, that's going to give a lot of players the willingness to take that risk as opposed to dive hopping until you find an uncontested one.

  • @grumpyw01f

    🔖 BOOKMARKED 🔖

  • We need that.
    I seariusly think that a few rounds of HG with good match and proper reward would make a lot of good to adventure health.
    Learing folks how to fight and defend and rewarding them in HG would pay out nicely in adventure.

  • Yah I can't really argue with this.

    We need to stop letting good players rule the roosts, so to speak.

    That's not fun.

    It isn't fun for them because they get bored and it isn't fun for the average player because they get frustrated.

    People largely don't want to PvP in this game as it is and such modes and ideas just push them away from the idea further. SoSS is a great idea but you don't get renown from it, this is a mistake. It should reward every type of play and is a very good organic pvp experience. Some are contested, some are not. You don't constantly want to be contested, it wears on you and gets old real fast. There needs to be balance, a crescendo.

    The defend aspect of hourglass is another good way of doing organic pvp and I personally believe this is the only way hourglass should be done. Yes, I've said it.

    It is great to spice up monotonous PvE sessions and I wish we'd have leaned harder into this aspect. To me it feels more organic than pvp diving.

  • One of the main things I see with hourglass is that is not only PvP on demand, but also the only way to unlock the curses.

    Allow me to explain myself, the curses are the rewards for being level 100 in allegiance in any faction (aside from being pirate legend or reaper 75) so it is a reward for leveling up. Look at the rings and distinctions, or the companies set, most of the items are rewards for leveling up, however each trading company has multiple methods of leveling up, for example, look at the merchant alliance, you can level up by doing commodity runs, catching animals, doing a lost shipment voyage or deliver cargo, each activity is different from the rest, it offers a variety to level up this faction and unlock the cosmetics at the representative.
    So this brings it to my first point: how do you level up allegiance with the guardians and servants? You have to do hourglass fights, sure, you may raise hourglass, grab a loot haul and lower the hourglass, but it is quite possible that someone will emerge from the water and fight you, so you need to defend yourself and win the fight or else all your loot haul will be lost and moved to another server. I can't confirm this as I haven't stacked a haul myself with hourglass active in a long time, but it seems you don't get any allegiance if you sink while defending, you'd get allegiance for winning a defense but not losing. Again, I can't confirm that since I don't defend but I rather dive. If that's the case then people would feel less encouraged to defend and would dive instead: attacker vs attacker.
    That leaves us with the only option that is diving and face a duel with another ship. And it seems people feel this is the only way to level up allegiance, as stacking loot comes with the risk of being invaded and losing, and it is much more riskier than any loot stack since you actively mark yourself for PvP, while other methods of stacking outside of hourglass can be safer by sailing with stealth, avoiding certain paths and even avoid raising emmisaries, you can even stack tons of loot in the Devil's Roar without finding a single ship on the horizon.
    So, what are the methods of leveling up allegiance? Only activating the hourglass and dive, again and again. Not even the Hunter's Call is like this, you can go to shipwrecks, sea forts, buy captaincy meat or go fishing yourself to level up the reputation for Hunter's Call. I dare to say that in theory you can even get the Legendary hunter of Sea of Thieves title without taking out your fishing rod once as you may be lucky and find rare fish in shipwreck barrels (I once found a Shadow Stormfish in one of them) or sink someone who was carrying treacharous plunder or steal their fish from their food barrels.
    Hourglass? No, just dive and dive, the only method for it. It would be nice if they added additional PvP gamemodes for earning allegiance to shake the monotony a bit. Who knows? Perhaps two players locked in a closed area, and use sword only and win sword duels (the best out of 5 rounds) and after the winner is decided they can go back to their ship with extra allegiance gained. Perhaps make 2v2 boat fights, perhaps make players have to race towards an island and dig one piece of treasure with a difficult map to understand, the first one to dig the spot wins and the loser has their ship scuttled like hourglass our of bounds and sent to another server. I don't know, just wild ideas but my point is that multiple methods of earning allegiance would be fantastic. These are the only progress bars that have a single activity in the game aside from commendations themselves.

    For my second point: Hourglass is not about skill actually, it encourages win fast or lose fast. It doesn't matter how many cannonballs you landed, it doesn't matter how many boarders you repelled, it doesn't matter if you broke their masts multiple times, it doesn't matter how long you managed to survive in the fight or if you avoided going to the ferry once, and it doesn't matter if you clutched a win after being close to be sunk. The only thing that matter is who wins and who loses. Win xp for one side, lose xp for the other one. So this encourages to finish fights quickly because both sides will get a fixed ammount of xp. The winning side may get increased xp due to streaks, loot aboard and emmissary, but those things are factors outside the fight itself. You could be hoarding a big ammount of loot, while having a streak of 3, and you may be paired with a loss farmer, that winning xp will be the same as if you won against someone who fought back. Activity inside the fight does not affect your xp gain. That's why loss farming exist, for those not confident enough to win, they rather make their losses quickly as possible. In fact, I think certain number of quick losses can get more xp than a single long win depending on how much time you spend on it. None of the activities during the fight matter, but it is the factors outside of it that affect winning xp. For losing it is even worse, as the losing xp is always the same, always, even if you had emmisary V, a high streak, some loot, and so on, if you lose once you lose everything, absolutely everything and it will give you that minuscule ammount of xp.

    This brings me to my third point: losing is demoralizing, like a lot. This gamemode is seen as it is being filled only by sweats, because average and below average players may feel demoralized and discouraged to continue. If you managed to fight pretty well but sink you get a tiny portion of xp, if you manage to repel a boarder but still lose you get the same tiny portion, if you survive long enough in battle by bucketing and repairing, you get the same tiny ammount. It doesn't encourage players to look at their mistakes and check which areas of combat they need to improve and which ones to reinforce, it only makes players feel more obsessed with winning without explaining how or where to start, or just give up entirely and see it as a waste of time. And that is an important thing: time. Both players should feel they are making good use of their time, both sides winners and losers. Other games with PvP can give better rewards to a losing team who fought well compared to a losing team who barely did anything, but in Sea of Thieves hourglass is the flat loss xp, it is demoralizing, and made some players quit already and not try ever again. It is a PvP mode, which means one side must win and one side must lose, there will always be a losing side, and the losing side needs to feel encouraged to try again, to comeback and improve, not be demoralized by the system. Because if the playerbase for a gamemode gets reduced then it happens what you just explained in your graphic, and the low tier goes away, the middle tier becomes the new low tier and the cycle continues while the playerbase for hourglass gets reduced more and more. I can see why some players decide to touch the hourglass only during gold and glory and community events while avoiding it the rest of time.

    For my fourth and final point is: the rewards themselves. And what I'm about to say is going to be controversial and it is going to anger a lot of people, so I apologize in advance as it is not my intention to start a fight. The rewards are curses, and curses are seen as status symbol, and all that stuff. The problem is that the skeleton curse and ghost curse are not trophies of displaying skills, but rather commitment, perseverance and patetience just like the gold curse is for the shores of gold tall tales. It is possible to get the curses with losses only, in fact it was already achieved this way before by someone on Reddit who helped to count the ammount of losses required. And loss xp existed from the get go, just not for out of bounds losses as that was added a few months later. So the curses could be achieved by people who only lost, that means that the curses never had that skill display trophy value as some people want it to be. It is just what it is, a cosmetic that makes you look like a ghost with a green filter or a customizable skeleton costume, with its own emotes, and that's it, cosmetics awarded for reaching level 100, and level 100 can be achieved without sinking a single ship, it just takes a long time. I went for the ghost curse and got it because I wanted to look as a ghost, and I'm happy with it in safer seas, I don't go around showing off my ghost curse, I just use it for myself to look like a ghost for the sake of being a ghost, if a blue ghost curse existed in the emporium I would have bought that and not bother touching hourglass once. And perhaps that's why people are angry at the stone curse being in the pass, because they want the curses to be a status symbol, a trophy. For me, I think the stone curse looks great and I don't really care if other will mock me for having the stone curse. I customize myself for me, not for impressing and flexing on strangers on the internet. (I don't think I'll bother to get the skeleton curse as I already have the dark warsmith costume). So how does this relates to my fourth point? Well, I think a few players want to be skeletons, or be ghosts, but feel the journey to get the curses is too much and demoralizing. While other players want to gatekeep the curses and keep them as PvP trophies to flex on them. Imagine if hypothetically the rewards for level 100 in allegiance was something different, like a hat, a jacket, or a ship set, and the ghost and skeleton curses were achieved differently. Personally I would have gone for that other activity depending on what it is rather than try to get 100 allegiance for the hat, jacket or ship set. I went to hourglass for the sake of looking like a ghost, not for flexing I have a cosmetic earned in PvP. I stopped caring about status a long time ago due to a large ammount of reasons. So back to my fourth point: perhaps some players just wanted the same, perhaps. They just wanted to have a customizable skeleton, or have the ghost filter in the living world, but they get demoralized by the game mode, and give up early, keeping the playerbase small. This also connect to my first point that there are no other way of obtaining allegiance, so that's why people in hourglass meet players who are loss farming or simply not interested in fighting but want to get the curses. I see loss farming as a consequence rather than a cause. It is a consequence of how demoralizing is losing, and how effort does not matter in hourglass, only results.

    I have some questions:

    • We know that certain cosmetic categories have one or two items in total like masks, knives or rings. So imagine a cosmetic category that only has two cosmetics available, one that looks super amazing and stunning, it looks good with almost everything but it is easy to get and everyone can adquire it in a few minutes, and the other cosmetic is very ugly and it is very hard to combine it with stuff you equip to look decent however it is very hard to obtain, very difficult as it requires a lot of dedication and persistance, and also a lot of time and knowledge on the seas. Which one would you equip? A good looking cosmetic easy to get or an ugly cosmetic hard to obtain? Please don't answer with "I would want something that looks good AND is hard to obtain" as I'm asking of a category with only these two. I ask this because I want to know how much people value looks and how much they value achievements.
    • Second question: For those saying that Hourglass is made for quick PvP on demand, and curses don't matter. Would you be fine if the curses were moved to something else and the rewards for allegiance was a different item? If the ghost curse and skeleton curse were achieved in a different matter and the reward for level 100 was a hat, and level 1000 was a jacket. Would you be fine with moving rewards to different things?
    • Third question: What is the first thing you see on the horizon? The ship set the other players have or the curses they have equipped? Wouldn't the ship set be the first indication of how the future interaction with those players will go?
    • Would you be fine if they added different methods of earning allegiance, either by doing a quest or adding more PvP modes? (I bet everyone will say only extra PvP modes, no PvE)
    • How would you encourage someone who is not good at PvP to keep trying? How would you boost their morale and help them achieve their goal?
    • What do you really think is the cause of the bad state of hourglass? or if there are multiple causes, what are they?
    • Do you think there is something that's absolutely fun for everyone? Something that nobody can dislike in this game?
    • Do you think it is a good approach to try to make something more appealing to everyone, or things must fill a specific niche?

    Honestly, I don't know anything at this point. Personally I don't feel like hourglass was very well designed, and I'm glad I got the legendary curse at 105, but I don't feel like continuing playing that mode is worth it. Personally, I feel happy for finally looking like a ghost, and I don't plan to flex that to anybody, but rather repeat the third Pirate's Life Tall Tale with the ghost curse solo because I find it funny to be ghost fighting other ghosts. I will keep avoiding player interaction on the High Seas when I use it to get gold. Everyone has their own motivations and goals, and I think the biggest problem not only with Hourglass but the whole game of Sea of Thieves is the clash of ideologies from differents parts of the playerbase. Sea of Thieves perhaps is not a game for everyone as much as the trailers make it look like. I find it fun sometimes, but there is stuff that I can't simply like. And fun is subjective as something I find fun others may dislike and viceversa. Just look at the Infinite Pirate Generator, some people like it and will defend it while others dislike it and want a normal character creator. Look how some people wanted safer seas restrictions lifted and some wanted safer seas restrictions to be harsher. Look at how some people love not having skull of siren song not being contested and how some want it to have PvP encounters every time. Hourglass is the same, some will love it, some will hate it. And while some people will defend hourglass design others will dislike it and criticize it.

    Anyway, don't take everything I say as a fact, all I said is simply an opinion from a guy with certain point of view, and can only speak from what he experienced. Also, big apologies for the wall of text or saying something I shouldn't.

  • @personalc0ffee
    At times I look back to the original Hourglass and feel sad. We are kind of in an "Hourglass 2.0" at the moment, because Rare removed the ability to get rewards for sinking hourglass players you find organically.
    That decision was made to get rid of cheese mechanics and alliance server grinding. But I wish there was another way. I haven't defended or just played the game with the hourglass running since the beginning, because it's rarely worth the effort. I either lament having to wait a whole 20 minutes for another battle, or I lament that I can't get anything done before the next battle. It might be worth surprising HG players with a horn of fair winds :)
    But not as a level-up strategy.

  • @dragotech123 Being able to roam around as a ghost or a skeleton is something that I would have thought would be appreciated by the larger, casual audience. Not just folks who are into on-demand PvP.

    I'm with ya man. From the get-go, I thought locking those specific curses behind a massive PvP grind was a huge mistake for this playerbase. It's the reason some folks will even bother to commit to a loss grind rather than play the matches genuinely.

    Arena's cosmetics made sense. Yeah we had some clothing and equipment, but the major draws were the weapons, ship pieces, and titles. It makes more sense to reward PvP with PvP-related items.

    Around the time of Arena's removal (and before the fake PL weapons were added), folks were asking for the PL weapons & Arena cosmetics to be earned somehow in Adventure. So this ties in to your question about moving the current rewards to different avenues.

    At that time, I was fine with the idea of Rare moving those rewards if, and only if they awarded a separate unobtainable set to those who already unlocked them. For example, Rare moves the PL flintlock to Adventure, but rewards Arena players who already have it with the "War Torn PL Flintlock" or something similar.

    Likewise, HG has been out for a while now, and there are folks who have grinded a significant ways through it. So, I would be okay with them moving the curses if (and only if) those who currently have the curses were given separate, unobtainable items.

    As for the multiple modes: I think it's overdue for HG. And I think it's something that would have saved Arena. Multiple modes (the 1.0 mode, 2.0 mode, TDM) would have brought in more players, not fewer.

    Same thing with ledgers, to @GrumpyW01f's point. It's something that would have brought Arena more regular activity, and possibly justified its operational costs. And it's something HG desperately needs now.

  • I think there are going to be ways to increase rank in Guardians/Seekers without it being full hourglass mode in the future. They could totally tie something with the upcoming burning blade.

    I do hope they find a way to enhance the mode: instead of it just being “dive to PvP” or “get dove to” have the pure ship vs ship mode require you to dive, and it takes you to an instanced arena off the high seas (like to the Sea of the Damned Sea Dog Tavern from the adventure).

    Have the other mode be Hunter/hunted… where one ship is just trying to collect treasure and another ship invades somewhere else on the server, and it tasked with hunting them down. The earned reputation for this would be based off of longevity as well as treasure grade for, but you also will not be able to turn in your HG till the Hunter ship is destroyed.

  • Its pvp lol, when I started doing hg I was bad, but with the help and advice from teamates I was able to get better. So basically skill issue lol

  • @grumpyw01f said:

    Adding ledger rewards and daily wins/missions for more allegiance, would bring players back to the mode regularly. A consistent, healthy ecosystem like that brings enough players to the mode that everyone gets more fair matches, and even when they don't, they won't lose the will to play the mode after losing a streak, making things worse for everyone else.

    Just to add to this, the allegiance rewarded per match needs an overhaul. Simply put:

    A win should grant a fixed amount of allegiance ("X"). And a loss should grant ≤X, scaled to the activity in the match. And treasure (grade) onboard should add a significant multiplier to both wins and losses.

    Metrics to determine the loss rep would include: cannon hits, holes repaired, and boarders killed. Again, this is before a treasure multiplier.

    This would make losing feel less disheartening.

    Currently, loss rep is the same whether a player/crew puts 100% effort into the fight, or sails straight OOB. And this is not okay.

    If a battle is practically dead even and eventually ends due to one or two lucky one-balls, why should the losing crew get significantly less allegiance than the winning crew?

    Effort should be rewarded. Same principle behind the ledger/rewards proposed.

  • Maybe they should add a daily reward for playing a match of hourglass. And count players daily streaks. Not a fix in any way for hourglass's problems, but it'd create a bigger pool of average joe's.

  • When hourglass first came out, my friend and I would go to streaks of five or six before either being sunk or hopping off. Although I haven't played hourglass in almost a year, I'd imagine it is still largely the same. In which case, I am more than supportive of this idea. Doesn't leave the best of feelings repeatedly sinking the same crew.

  • @varggz said in Hourglass is Dying:

    Its pvp lol, when I started doing hg I was bad, but with the help and advice from teamates I was able to get better. So basically skill issue lol

    You can say 'skill issue' but it doesn't change the situation.

    If you want any competitive game to succeed/be supported by the developers, it must have casual appeal.

    To deny the problems with Hourglass is to deny any chances at further updates/future importance for the mode.

    I'm glad you made it out of the loop with the right mentor. Just realize that your experience is not that of the vast number of players that stopped fighting in faction battles.

  • @dragotech123

    Which one would you equip? A good looking cosmetic easy to get or an ugly cosmetic hard to obtain?

    I'd pick the good looking one, most likely. I still wear the Dark Adventurer jacket at times, and 3 million gold isn't that hard to come by these days... I just love red if that's not obvious already. For PvP clout cosmetics, my Triumphant Sea Dog title tells all you need to know, so I can afford to wear less rare stuff.

    Would you be fine if the curses were moved to something else and the rewards for allegiance was a different item?

    While I see the plight for those who really don't like to PvP, I wouldn't be fine with it. In my opinion, the reason most players are even trying Hourglass is to get to those curses. I'm of the opinion that there are too many players who are PvP-averse. So those curses as the carrot on the stick was an amazing way to get players to at least try PvP. If you buy supplies, Hourglass would be a low-stakes, short-form PvP experience that would show PvP-averse players that PvP isn't so bad, even if they were more or less forced to be there.
    But that was just the ideal of Hourglass. If it's implementation wasn't botched to the point that low and average-level players wouldn't play it, then the curses would be good for it. So I'd rather fix the mode than abandon it by giving the curses away. If other players want a taste of the skeleton curse, they can buy the emporium costumes. If they want to see the ghost curse, they can watch phantoms or go to the ferry.

    What is the first thing you see on the horizon? The ship set the other players have or the curses they have equipped?

    To be fair, there already are ship rewards for Hourglass. And not just the figureheads; there's a green ghost ship and a magpie's wing set to be had by progressing in the Guardians. I'm baffled that we never got a Reaper ship for Hourglass.
    But I see your point. Hourglass is primarily a naval battle mode, and the rewards are mostly personal outfits. It doesn't make much sense.

    Would you be fine if they added different methods of earning allegiance, either by doing a quest or adding more PvP modes?

    A definite yes. But I'm not just interested in PvP. I'm interested in PvEvP. So I think that the upcoming Burning Blade update should give you Allegiance when you sink a player ship for the first time, and afterwards take them off of the server. If they sink the player-owned Burning Blade, they get Allegiance. Both allegiance payouts dependent on Tribute from the Blade so PvE is more of a part of it.
    And like any Arena player, I'd like to see some sort of island-only 'get the chest' Hourglass battle (akin to Battle for Old Faithful Isle if you're familiar with Arena).

    How would you encourage someone who is not good at PvP to keep trying? How would you boost their morale and help them achieve their goal?

    The first thing I do when I sail PvP with someone who's not that good, is to tell them to expect nothing, and focus on having fun. What I've done in the past is to get them to prioritize on more low-effort PvP that they haven't invested much into so the loss feels not as crushing. Showing nuance in PvP has also helped. A player's first experience tuccing at FotD always results in giggles. Even if we end up losing, we've had some fun sneaking around and maybe even blowing up a few ships with barrels.
    But the most important thing right now has been to push players away from Hourglass until they've really learned the ropes, unless they're willing to be the helm while I hit nasty chainshots. I have one friend who started just a few months ago, and my goodness he has a PvP spark. No loss is too crushing for this guy. A mindset I aspire to every day.
    For the most part, newer players just don't do a ton of PvP without someone there to teach them. Heck, even I had a teacher. There was one time when I was green that EddytheCaptain allianced with me at a fort. After we made it to the outpost, he proceeded to spawncamp me until his partner sold everything. But he had the courtesy to keep the alliance flag so I'd still get half. Very quickly, I saw it as a learning experience, and well after all the loot was sold, we were sparring on the beaches of Sanctuary Outpost. That gave me a lot more knowledge on what was possible. Good times.

    What do you really think is the cause of the bad state of hourglass? or if there are multiple causes, what are they?

    The main problem is casual retention, yeah, but there are other problems. If you received extra supplies during a faction battle, the barrier to entry would be much lower. I play HG on sloop 99% of the time, so buying the outpost stocks is just fine. But larger crews have to spend time finding enough supplies to battle, and if they sink, they have to do it all over again. Crews spending time getting supplies further decreases the number of crews in the invasion tunnel at any given time, making matchmaking much worse for the larger ship types.
    And then there's the fact that hourglass does not adhere to Rare's recent mission to open up more short sessions for players. The streak system frequently makes Hourglass sessions over an hour long. It can take that long just to get to a streak of 4, and if you sink on the way, you're looking at quitting, doing another kind of session, or spending another hour trying for a streak. My ranked system is good for everything I've listed, but also allows you to be happier with just playing a few games at a time.
    Along with that is time spent. As a solo player, it's not uncommon to spend 30 minutes fighting another player in Hourglass, which really adds up quick when you're trying to reach Champion. If there were some way to make things harder the longer the game goes on, that would be nice. I've always liked the idea of gradually reducing the size of the battle after 15-20 minutes. It would also be fun to start red sea effect if it goes for even longer.

    Do you think there is something that's absolutely fun for everyone? Something that nobody can dislike in this game?

    Certainly not. Which was why it was so sad to lose Arena, as it was the perfect microcosm of the whole game. And if someone enjoys the game, they're likely to enjoy a microcosm of the game. But PvP is obviously not for everyone, so why would I expect everyone to play PvP modes? I don't, but I'd like players to see what they're missing if it would actually be something they'd enjoy.

    Do you think it is a good approach to try to make something more appealing to everyone, or things must fill a specific niche?

    I would say to fill a niche. To please everyone is to please no one. Unique experiences that aren't represented anywhere else is how you get a following. Funnily enough, that's exactly what Sea of Thieves is. Hourglass rewards past 100 are a great way to please established PvP players, but the mode itself should appeal to everyone who likes Sea of Thieves, as hourglass is just a representation of combat already in the game.


    Thanks for adding your thoughts!

  • @dragotech123 said in Hourglass is Dying:

    I fully agree with point #4 but simply cannot say it as eloquently. I'm going to answer these questions not for you, but for Rare's databanks, to see what their players are actually thinking.

    Which one would you equip? A good looking cosmetic easy to get or an ugly cosmetic hard to obtain?

    The good looking one. Well, the one I think is better looking anyway. Cosmetics is the only reward in this game, I don't suspect you'd hear any different from a large percentage of pirates.

    For those saying that Hourglass is made for quick PvP on demand, and curses don't matter. Would you be fine if the curses were moved to something else and the rewards for allegiance was a different item?

    Not really, no. Sea of Thieves likes to say that your cosmetics display the journey your pirate has taken. It makes logical and fictional sense to me that the two warring factions would reward their most productive contributors with the honor of the curses. I think that they should remain reward for having the hourglass active, but wholly endorse the idea of more ways to earn allegiance when it's active. War is not won solely on the front lines.

    What is the first thing you see on the horizon? The ship set the other players have or the curses they have equipped? Wouldn't the ship set be the first indication of how the future interaction with those players will go?

    Ship, 100%. I've long advocated that the reward for hourglass should have been ship cosmetics. Something that pirates can see through the spyglass and make a more educated decision about the action they're about to take regarding that ship on the horizon. That's what role playing is: the discovery, decision, action loop.

    Would you be fine if they added different methods of earning allegiance, either by doing a quest or adding more PvP modes? (I bet everyone will say only extra PvP modes, no PvE)

    Yes please! Delivering supplies to your faction representative (someone's got to stock the ships when they spawn in), delivering loot to your faction representative (supplies cost money), undertaking voyages for your faction representative (reconnoitering, patrol routes, other war-time activities), all while the hourglass is active. Must have some hourglass related risk for this hourglass related reward. Again, war is won by far more than winning battles.

    How would you encourage someone who is not good at PvP to keep trying? How would you boost their morale and help them achieve their goal?

    Tell them to only play on boosted weekends. Hourglass sees a remarkable uptick in participation during G&G and Community Weekends. You'll find matches closer to your skill level and even if you lose, the allegiance reward is huge.

    What do you really think is the cause of the bad state of hourglass? or if there are multiple causes, what are they?

    It's the intersect of low participation causing broken SBMM, and the aforementioned lack of reward for good battles. Every system is going to have a loophole. Hourglass' problem is, as you stated, it's better to win fast or lose fast instead of actually trying, especially if you merely want to get cursed and get out. I think Arena taught us that rewarding PvP activities uncapped is a bad idea; that encourages allegiance farming for toxic behavior. But I certainly believe the first five cannonball hits, holes plugged, and pirates downed should each award bonus allegiance to the loser for trying. On top of that, I want to see daily deeds for participating in like five or ten matches, and a first win of the day bonus. Some small, attainable goal anyone can accomplish.

    Do you think there is something that's absolutely fun for everyone? Something that nobody can dislike in this game?

    Fireworks. They serve no real purpose other than beauty and joy. I can't think of any reason why people would hate them.

    Do you think it is a good approach to try to make something more appealing to everyone, or things must fill a specific niche?

    No. I used to think if you improve hourglass enough everyone would like it, but that's not the case anymore. Arrowhead Studio's response to players asking for features is "we're making our game, not yours. A game for everyone is a game for no one." Hourglass is PvP on demand and PvP is simply not in demand for every Sea of Thieves player and that's ok.

    I abhor the decision to put the curses, the #1 request cosmetic since the inception of the game, behind a PvP gate. Everyone should have the opportunity to be cursed in the game and I feel this decision has disengaged more pirates than it has encouraged to participate in hourglass. But that ship has sailed, the curses are for Hourglass participants. This is why I support the idea of more ways to earn allegiance.

  • Honestly, I feel like Hourglass can be pretty easily saved if Rare added a few things.

    • Daily Deeds/activities/challenges/milestones that grant meaningful rep - this incentivizes repeated play for both seasoned and newer players, and rewards people's time more appropriately. (Average players don't have to slog through loss after loss and get virtually nothing).

    • WAY more rewards to earn, especially to pad from level 200, onwards. This is a big one, honestly. As of now, there is basically nothing to reward players after level 200, especially if they aren't interested in the golden bones/ghost curse, much less the 9999 titles. More rewards = higher incentive to continue playing. As it is now, I'm working towards reaper 100, and I have absolutely ZERO plans/desire to continue playing HG after this.

    • More game modes within hourglass would shake things up as well, and provide mediums for way more folks to enjoy (King of the Hill, Capture the Flag, TDM, 2v2's, 3v3's, etc). More modes would give a variety of things for people to choose from, and would be more appeasing for new players, while also giving veterans something new to do as well.

  • @valor-omega

    WAY more rewards to earn, especially to pad from level 200, onwards.

    I got to Servant of the Flame 100 because I wanted my curse. I got to 200 by setting gradual, 10 level goals to get one cosmetic at a time. I got further than that by helping others out here and there and getting the wheel-built upper body.

    After all that, I'm left with the verdant bones projected at ~400, the skirt projected at ~500, the barnacled skull at ~600, and the golden bones at 1000.

    I'd love the barnacled skull and the golden bones, but I just don't pick hourglass very often as my voyage, as it requires a good crew that also wants to grind (which is none of my friends) and a large time investment. I find more enjoyment out of fighting over FoFs for the amazing Fate of Fortune set. Next season I'll probably have even more fun just playing in Adventure.

    If Rare fixed up Hourglass we'd have more of the players just like me hop back on. You've got to drive the engagement you're looking for.

  • @GrumpyW01f @LordQulex I have nothing left to add, you guys complimented my thoughts. And also, I am glad that I shared this opinion with you guys. Hopefully hourglass can have some slight changes to appeal to more players. Fun is subjective to each individual, but hopefully there can be some change in the future that can make hourglass more fun to a larger population.

  • @grumpyw01f said in Hourglass is Dying:

    @personalc0ffee
    At times I look back to the original Hourglass and feel sad. We are kind of in an "Hourglass 2.0" at the moment, because Rare removed the ability to get rewards for sinking hourglass players you find organically.
    That decision was made to get rid of cheese mechanics and alliance server grinding. But I wish there was another way. I haven't defended or just played the game with the hourglass running since the beginning, because it's rarely worth the effort. I either lament having to wait a whole 20 minutes for another battle, or I lament that I can't get anything done before the next battle. It might be worth surprising HG players with a horn of fair winds :)
    But not as a level-up strategy.

    The only thing Rare changed is the ability to dive or get invaded with other ships in the area. You should still get rewarded if you sink an emissary organically assuming that you activate the hourglass. I don’t attack roaming ships so I can’t confirm this. I do know that Rare stopped Alliance farming where a single ship emerges when multiple ships are close to each other

  • My $0.02 is I bought SoT for HourGlass. I had heard a lot about SoT, the emerging storyline, Dev involvement with events like Save/Destroy Golden Sands and Choose who to save; Pendragon or Flameheart, and the idea of a cross faction PvP war going on in the background with that level of Dev involvement sounded too good to pass up.

    Little did I know it would be 2 years for Flameheart to make it back, and HG would go unsupported and ignored for that entire time, minus the 1 new skelly set we got in 11 (which I love) I ground out my skeleton curse before I got Pirate Legend. I maxed out every single Reaper and Servant commendation and every Skeleton curse cosmetic waiting for ANYTHING new to be added to HG.

    An HG ledger would be perfect. It fits the rest of the game's reward scheme, invites recurring involvement, it sounds like a really good fit.

    And after 2 years of systems, mechanics, and QoL, I am okay with requesting developement time being spent on HG for a bit now.

  • tldr...

    until they patch the problem of pirates starting burning blade with an active hourglass, a lot of pirates are going to be avoiding hourglass pvp like the plague.

  • @o37gekko what does that do exactly?

  • Realistically, they should have made skull of siren song an hourglass event, where crew's that opt in dive to a skull server filled just with people opted in for the voyage.

  • @captain-fob4141
    I agree, that would have been a perfect play on Arena without making it a separate mode.

  • It should die. Horrible implementation. Everyone should have stock supplies with full pockets. Nobody should fight an hour long match because people run away. And why doesn't the circle just do the actual BR thing and shrink after 10 minutes or something? The last problem it has is matchmaking.

  • @a-soft-object
    I agree that those are problems, but it hasn't deterred the top tier players. If you make those changes, you make the battles better, but you don't fix the underlying problems.

  • There is a special place in Davy Jones' locker for runners.
    Not folks who disengage to repair, that's just how it goes. The people who try to get you to quit out of sheer frustration by running nonstop the entire length of the match.

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