Would a 6-8 Crew Ship Work?

  • SHIBBY 544

    A lot of people have requested a large ship like the Man-O-War, but there's a part of me that doubts that would be a beneficial presence in the game. I don't want to immediately dismiss it as a bad idea, but do you think it could be implemented in a way that's balanced?

    Obviously 4 crew ships have the advantage, but there's still ways for smaller crews to work around them, if not possibly defeat 4 crew ships. However, if larger crews were introduced I think that would greatly shift the balance of the game and diminish smaller crews' chances of any victory.You could say smaller crews wouldn't be affected much since they don't often have enough loot to justify being attacked. I'm a solo player, and I've rarely been attacked by galleons, but it would certainly make me more paranoid if I knew 6-8 crew ships were around.

    Even if this doesn't really effect sloops, how would this effect galleons? Galleons, often having a large amount of loot, would become the primary target of Man-O-Wars. However, Rare is already considering introducing a way to unite multiple crews to make a fleet, so in a way that would overshadow the affects of a larger ship.

    Personally, I think crew sizes should remain 4 and under. I'm looking forward to the Brigantine and row boat, and if other ships were to be introduced I think it should be for the same crew sizes, but with different specialties (to be honest, I wouldn't mind if they stopped after the Brigantine and row boat).

    What do you guys think? Would larger crews be a positive addition to the game, would it have much affect to the overall experience?

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  • el Dunco

    I think increasing max crew size would just obliterate the balancing. 4-man crews max seems like a nice solid number. Maybe potentially 6-man crews but upping it to 8 would cause way too much chaos.

  • WestStormborn
    Captain
    Insider

    I know being a solo ship with a 6-8 crew ship around can cause some paranoia, but being a smaller ship has the advantage of being the fastest sailing against wind (which, tbh, happens often), the maneuverability to go around the ship (with bigger ships having more lack of turning), and ease of going through small tunnels in islands (i.e. thieves haven). Depending how and if the ship is implemented, smaller or medium crews will have no real problem with the huge ship. Unless you want to sink it, then there is no chance, except possibly a galleon on a good day.

  • Sir Lotus
    Master
    Insider
    Boatswain

    I'm not sure honestly. I would love to have it, but balancing it against other ships won't be easy.

    It would be more powerful than anything we have now, maybe part of the balacing issue could be the fact, that you'd need two people to adjust sails, or raise anchor, otherwise they wouldn't move at all?

    Also managing a crew of 6-8 random people could be an interesting challenge.

  • WestStormborn
    Captain
    Insider

    @el-dunco I think six is a good threshold. But I'd like a bigger ship for six so a galleon isn't a beast.

  • IISrgntWolfII
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    For what Sea of Thieves is, a crew of 4 is a solid number.
    With the upcoming new ship, filling the role for that odd 3 man crew, I think the idea of upping the galleon to 5 may work, but isn't needed.
    Solo slooping as most of us know is the "hard mode" of the game. Do we need to turn hard mode into expert mode in this game by adding that extra crewmate?
    I don't think so. This game isn't competitive, it's fun and social with some piracy thrown in to keep it lively.
    Also, I don't think the map in its current state is large enough for a larger ship. Sailing times are already fairly short; and adding a larger klunkier ship would just feel awkward in the current world. Some of the Outposts now will put holes in a Galleon just trying to pull up to the dock properly (golden sands i think coming in from the NW).

    If you want larger crews and bigger battles, then I think we need to watch for other games to fill this role.

  • DrunkPunk138
    Master
    Founder

    I think the numbers they released prove that the vast majority of the playerbase plays with less than 4 people, therefore what would be the value in adding it? And would that value overshadow the downsides it could present? Knowing that most people play in a crew of 2-3 people, wouldn't a ship of 5 or more be unnecessarily overpowered and difficult to deal with? Especially with respawn times and the ease of keeping a ship floating. I personally don't even think fleets would provide much value over the damage they'll cause, unless it's done in a way that makes mutiny easy and you can't invite a second crew from your friends list.

  • Ve111a
    Ship Mate

    I think the other major point adding the @DrunkPunk138 would be that the server size is about 20 players Max I believe, That's almost half on one ship and that would make for some really empty seas.

  • SHIBBY 544

    @drunkpunk138
    That's true that most people wouldn't have enough friends readily available to crew a 6 man ship, but there would be the chance that most players joining a random crew would choose the larger ship. I suppose the fact that they're a random crew would mean they'd probably not function well, but I'm just trying to consider all the variables.

  • m1sterpunch
    Master
    Insider

    The way around this is easy. A man o'war or ship of the line class just needs to have lots of firepower but slow acceleration. A sloop should be able to outrun it even with the wind. That way it's a more defensive opponent rather than offensive, luring ships to team up on them rather then them hunting down smaller vessels.

    Having more firepower and crew to protect it means big ships would go longer without turn ins, making them prime loot targets for other ships on the server.

    This should be the balanced dynamic anyway.

  • DaveyJay1984
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    It's a tough one. I think they would need to ensure they do what they have done with the others and make it so that for a ship to work most efficiently you need a full crew and each member removed makes things happen on board a little slower as is the case now.
    This means crews have to make decisions about when to attempt boarding activities or stay aboard for efficiency sake.
    The number of galleons I've taken down solo or with two on a sloop because they are all about getting off of their ship and leaving an individual to run it is crazy.
    I could see things working similarly getting bigger.
    Balance will be a tough ask though.

  • WestStormborn
    Captain
    Insider

    @drunkpunk138 I know what I'm saying is more my own personal experience, but when I play I end up having at least 6 people to play with having the same objective on an okay day. I know this sounds pretty selfish but I would like to play with those people on the same boat. [Skip to the bottom to hear simplified pros and cons] I know the idea of fleets keep being spurted out, but I don't what is fully best. Besides the point though, if the six crew ship (six being better than overpowered 8) turning was doing 45 degree turns every 5 minutes, when the wheel is all the way turned, would there be a distinct advantage to having six man crew except supplies and fire power? The raising of the anchor would take longer too creating a disadvantage when someone sneaks on the ship and lowers it then, the ship becomes hugely vulnerable. Raising of sails, and turning becomes longer and might take four crew members to raise or turn it well. Water in the bottom of the ship will take longer to dry up. The weight of pros and cons can make the big hulk actually feel like fighting a kitten.

    Pros:
    Higher fire power
    Faster speed with the wind
    Holds mass quantities of items
    More Crew= More friends and easier pvp

    Cons:
    Turning is slowest
    Speed is slowest against wind
    Stocking supplies is a nightmare
    Anchors, Sails and Turning takes longer
    Easily susceptible to vulnerability from behind.
    Longer patching of the hull
    Leaks can cause more serious damage (if there are three below decks)
    Gunpowder barrels cause more damage than they already do. (again, if three below decks)

  • WestStormborn
    Captain
    Insider

    Sorry, forgot to mention managing some form of order as a con

  • DrunkPunk138
    Master
    Founder

    @weststormborn said in Would a 6-8 Crew Ship Work?:

    @drunkpunk138 I know what I'm saying is more my own personal experience, but when I play I end up having at least 6 people to play with having the same objective on an okay day. I know this sounds pretty selfish but I would like to play with those people on the same boat. [Skip to the bottom to hear simplified pros and cons] I know the idea of fleets keep being spurted out, but I don't what is fully best. Besides the point though, if the six crew ship (six being better than overpowered 8) turning was doing 45 degree turns every 5 minutes, when the wheel is all the way turned, would there be a distinct advantage to having six man crew except supplies and fire power? The raising of the anchor would take longer too creating a disadvantage when someone sneaks on the ship and lowers it then, the ship becomes hugely vulnerable. Raising of sails, and turning becomes longer and might take four crew members to raise or turn it well. Water in the bottom of the ship will take longer to dry up. The weight of pros and cons can make the big hulk actually feel like fighting a kitten.

    Pros:
    Higher fire power
    Faster speed with the wind
    Holds mass quantities of items
    More Crew= More friends and easier pvp

    Cons:
    Turning is slowest
    Speed is slowest against wind
    Stocking supplies is a nightmare
    Anchors, Sails and Turning takes longer
    Easily susceptible to vulnerability from behind.
    Longer patching of the hull
    Leaks can cause more serious damage (if there are three below decks)
    Gunpowder barrels cause more damage than they already do. (again, if three below decks)

    The issue is 6 people and a 30 second respawn timer, in my opinion. And i understand that some people end up in this situation. I did, too, when the game first came out. But games need to have limits to maintain balance, even if it ends up being a detriment to some groups of people. And the more complexity you give something, the harder it is to find that level playing field. I'm not saying it's not possible, I just think the benefits of doing so wouldn't be fully realized by enough people to negate the cons. I mean, look at how frequent complaints about galleons being on the same server as sloops pop up. While I totally disagree with the mentality of these posts, I at least understand their perspective, and creating a situation where they may have to fight even MORE people would more than likely upset far more people than it would make happy.

  • WestStormborn
    Captain
    Insider

    @drunkpunk138 understandable

  • Krakalodon
    Legend
    Insider

    I think that they could work but there would have to be new servers created. I think the best way to handle is to be able to pick servers. Lets say you and your man o war crew can only go to these certain servers. The idea is man o war cannot be with the sloop and the brigatine because of balance but you can play with galleons but galleons are gonna be like brigatines to the man o war.

  • l3urnie Sanders
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    I would love to see a 6 or 8 crew ship. The power is balanced by lack of speed.

  • WestStormborn
    Captain
    Insider

    @tre23 Interesting idea, so advantage is not that high, but what about sloops to galleons or brigantines to man o war. Will there still be servers with those options? I know a few sloops player who love to kick galleon butt in a sloop alone.

  • WestStormborn
    Captain
    Insider

    @l3urnie-sanders among other hinderences

  • Krakalodon
    Legend
    Insider

    @weststormborn Yeah! I'm just saying the game wilk mostly be the same. I'm just saying that man o war can only play with galleons other then that if a sloop wants to play with a galleon its not restricted at all but with server idea there could be custom servers but if you make a server its gotta be open but since you created the server you can kick anyone that you dislike

  • Sandmanbakery
    Marauder

    I've got to pipe up for the man-o-war. I think the sluggish nature that is automatically assumed by everyone would be more than balancing enough. Imagine a two man sloop skirting around your backside they could open a few holes, and then swim over with a tnt/boarder to stop the crew from repairing. That one scenario could be your undoing. A galleon could approach at speed, broadside you before you can turn and present guns and then send boarders with tnt to finish you off. I'm saying it's already balanced if it's slow enough. The area a man o war would shine in would be defensive play. A man-o-war set up in a position with clear lines of sight would basically be like sailing into a fortress' amount of cannons with aim bot enabled. i doubt many of any crew would make it through that hail of fire. and that's the point. you don't want to attack the big bad of the sea when they can see you coming. You need surprise. that's exactly how it is for the sloops vs the galleon at the moment. you need something in your favor. in the end i think the chaos of a 6-8 ship would be the unltimate test of captaining skills. can you get everyone working together? can you have the ship stay effective? can you have everyone remain on task? Galleon only kind of has that problem, with this many people and so much to do around the ship I imagine it will be the hardest job in the game to captain a man-o-war. I think it would all be GREAT

  • WestStormborn
    Captain
    Insider

    @tre23 How about not kicking someone you don't like, but kicking through fair rules that force people out if they disobey them. For an example, the server is set to be specifically made for doing voyages and/or exploration of the map. If the offender were to break a rule like "no firing on other player" they get warned the first time and banned the second time. I know their will be a complaint about having specific servers to be "weak," but then there can be a server for all out war for all kind of ships, if they dare!

  • Darrkbeard
    Master
    Insider

    @tre23 said in Would a 6-8 Crew Ship Work?:

    I think that they could work but there would have to be new servers created. I think the best way to handle is to be able to pick servers. Lets say you and your man o war crew can only go to these certain servers. The idea is man o war cannot be with the sloop and the brigatine because of balance but you can play with galleons but galleons are gonna be like brigatines to the man o war.

    RARE would never do that. They are in fact doing everything possible to prevent the playerbase from subdividing.

  • Krakalodon
    Legend
    Insider

    @weststormborn i agree but there wouldn't be much options like the only option I can think of is if a person hits you with a canon or any damage to you or your ship they get banned. More ideas could be don't steal, certain weapons only,certain boat types etc

  • Krakalodon
    Legend
    Insider

    @kyros-in-exile I see your point cause if we add man o war more people are gonna play on those servers anf the sloop,brigatine,galleon servers would proably be more bare.

  • Captain Arcanic
    Master
    Insider

    Servers would need to be bigger to handle such a beast. Smaller ships would need more map to run.

    Personally, I'd rather see a dedicated solo vessel like a catboat. Single mast, no lower deck, one swivel cannon, best speed in a crosswind, collapsible mast for ease of hiding, supplies, tiller and sail ropes all in one place, and you can beach it. On the other hand, one cannon hit and you're likely toast.

  • el Dunco

    I have no doubt that 6-man sized ship (man o' war) could be balanced with the other ships. I'm more worried about being able to defeat a 6-man crew in combat. The best way to sink a ship is to time the wipe of the crew and taking out 6 pirates in the right amount of time seems just insane with the respawn timers we have.

    This is almost the same argument as why 2 needs to be the limit on the sloop.

  • SHIBBY 544

    @sandmanbakery
    I would agree that the slower/less agile nature of a larger ship would be a natural balancing element, but there are other aspects that need discussion.

    Sure, there are always a number of strategies of dealing with a ship, but the primary is preventing a crew from making repairs, and the larger crew already has the advantage in defending and attacking, I doubt one person could keep a 6 crew from repairing for long for the "average" encounter.

    Also, crew size doesn't just affect ship combat, there's also combat on land.

  • sanni
    Lord
    Founder

    Part of the progression in Sea of Thieves is evolving from a solo player to a team player.
    So no-one should expect anything to be balanced for solo play, if a solo player finds the game too hard he just needs to evolve to a team player. Team play is a skill and anyone can learn it.

    Once you are a team player the question becomes what team sizes are actually manageable just from a team play perspective. To that I can say from personal experience 8 players in a team is too complex for your average gamer. There is a reason why in larger team games your team gets split up into smaller squads.

    Now I think the crew size should be at least raised to 5 players, because 5 men teams work effortlessly in many other games and they should work for Sea of Thieves too but 6-8 is too much at least for the game in its current form.

    Maybe in the future we get some legendary captain fleet vs fleet PvP event where multiple ships on each side battle it out.

  • el Dunco

    @sanni Well I believe RARE said they looked into it and said that 4 was the right crew size before things started getting chaotic.

  • SqualZell
    Seafarer

    The issue is not balancing, Just run numbers and tests and over time they can balance it properly. The issue is the low number of players on each world. I think i read higher up that it was 20. which means you can have a max of 2 Man-O-Wars. Which leads to very low ship count. So to balance a higher crew sized ship will need to increase the max world population by 2x maybe 3x.

    now if you increase the server 2x (40 people) you now have a metric ton of sloops and galleons. Can you Imagine 8-10 galleons running around doing forts? It practically makes it unplayable. (especially with the current respawn mechanics)

  • Odyssee mit Tee
    Sailor

    @ve111a sagte in Would a 6-8 Crew Ship Work?:

    I think the other major point adding the @DrunkPunk138 would be that the server size is about 20 players Max I believe, That's almost half on one ship and that would make for some really empty seas.

    They are mostly empty anyways, just how I love it.
    Cause I always get the short end of the stick, living in an area in the real world that is haunted by longbeard.
    My mic does not work for most people so they cannot even hear my 2nd language english.

    I feel like an isolated renegade enough as it is. Meeting people very often just reminds me of that.
    Yes it is only a little bit, but I am salty about that fact.

  • WestStormborn
    Captain
    Insider

    @squalzell bigger containment of player in each server would allow more empty servers to be filled and less servers needed. The amount of extra sloops and galleon become a problem if you don’t want to cooperate with others or aggro with everyone. Then the complaint of little difficulty on the sea is matched with all out war and actually hard sea battles that don’t make it easy for escape. Truthfully nightmares of PVE players unless forces can be joined to make safety by multi ship recruitment. Man o wars would be good at mass extinction of several ships, but can be highly swarmed if multiple crews join forces. More ships might even make more balance. My thoughts would be that only two or three man o wars per server to make it easier, if servers were expanded. Making man o wars not the overlords of the seas.

  • Lord DanielW
    Ship Mate

    @shibby-544 nah, I just stalked 4 galleons fighting (at the same time) and even joined the fight (just to bother them more) I think mano war will make amazing stories and game play streams. This way galleons can fear something as much as us sloops do.

    However I do think they should do more boat options eventually for the existing amount of crews
    I can't wait till we are able to truce in game.

  • Genuine Heather
    Captain
    Insider

    I'm all for the idea of having a 6-8 crew Man-O-War style ship. I think it could be balanced without too much effort. The mere fact that it would require such a large crew to sail efficiently is a balancing factor, and it would be even less maneuverable than a galleon. By contrast, it could have 6 to 8 cannons per side, and under full sail could pick up a decent head of steam. It would also be a bear to sink, with a well-trained crew.

    I think such a ship would encourage even more player cooperation (at least within crews) and maybe even among any crews who had thoughts about trying to sink one. If I knew there was a Man-O-War sailing the seas with a hold full of loot, I might be inspired to team up with other crews to try to take it down.

    Besides, it would be a truly awesome sight on the seas!

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