PvP: Smaller Crews vs bigger Crews

  • So, i've come across multiple bigger Crews when i was in a small one and i always noticed, that as a smaller Crew you don't event have a glimp of a chance to combat bigger Crews if they know what they are doing. It often happens that 4 Players of a bigger Crew just jump onto yoor Sloop and Spawncamp you. There is absolutely NOTHING you can do about that once they started except leaving the Game.

    I also have two possible solutions to this problem (one of them or both should be implemented in my opinion):

    1. Change Respawn times depending on Crew Size (4 Players - 4 times as high respawn time per player)
    2. Make Players invulnerable for a short time after spawning, this would completely remove spawncamping, as respawned Players can just kill the spawncampers during like 5-7 seconds of invulnerability

    Thanks for reading

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  • @zockeraxel

    You can scuttle the ship when camped.

    1. Spawn time should not be increased for larger crews, waiting is not a fun mechanic and affects more than just PvP.

    2. Immunity should be granted, but the moment you move, draw a weapon or equipment it should be removed. Else it is way too powerful. You lost the initial engagement, but giving you God mode for a while sounds like a bad idea.

    The biggest issue with spawn killing at the moment is that your spot is broadcasted, shadow appears first and that your character is placed in the world before you can play.

    Giving the people camping always the first shot, if with multiple people or a blunderbuss it can even result in instant death before movement. I have literally spawned in, black screen in the mean time I hear shots going off and all I see when returning is the green smoke of my body, back to the ferry. They had 3 guys on a sloop and could always figure out where I spawned by covering all the areas. In my opinion the respawning mechanic is supposed to give you a way to fight back. Not just make you feel like a wack a mole figure.

    I play on a PC mind you, before people start claiming this is a platform difference.

  • @cotu42 said in PvP: Smaller Crews vs bigger Crews:

    @zockeraxel

    You can scuttle the ship when camped.

    And thew best way to win a fight against a bigger crew is not to be there in the first place. You can deny almost anyone a chance at fighting you if you maintain good situational awareness.

  • @zockeraxel Spawn timers should not be touched; it takes forever as it is now to spawn in. And the whole invulnerability i agree with what @CotU42 said about it. The only thing i would add to what they said is to add the timer so that you can not just sit there abusing the system. Also if you are playing with friend(s) and you and him do die wait for the door to open for both that way at least one of yall can spawn in and have a chance. If you are thinking you are about to be boarded get the blunder out and watch ladders. the blunder still has the knockback effect and will knock them off the ship or ladder if it does not kill them. keep the sword instead of opting for another gun as the sword atm is really OP since it now just stops the player getting slashed from moving while there is no penalty if you miss with the sword swing. and if you can not win just scuttle especially if you do not have anything as you can just keep doing your own thing while putting as much distance as possible between you and the attackers. For certain people who have replied to this post: this is how you help people instead of saying "get gud" either try to help or do not post.

  • Crew size doesn't matter if they can't board your ship.

  • Nothing is stopping you from queing up with a larger crew, the ships aren't meant to be this balanced experience. Ask yourself this question, should 2 be able defeat 4, assuming they are all equal strength? The answer is no, the ships are merely a median for crews to navigate the seas easier.

    Spawn protection isn't a good thing. Since they can move and interact with the world, they can get free buckets of water as well as access to bananas and supplies. If crew size is that big of a deal then que on a bigger boat.

  • @vin-delanos said in PvP: Smaller Crews vs bigger Crews:

    @cotu42 said in PvP: Smaller Crews vs bigger Crews:

    @zockeraxel

    You can scuttle the ship when camped.

    And thew best way to win a fight against a bigger crew is not to be there in the first place. You can deny almost anyone a chance at fighting you if you maintain good situational awareness.

    What happens if you don't play completely risk free? Not everyone is a little mouse running from anything that moves. Sorry to say, but the spawn system is not optimal at the moment. This doesn't change whether or not you are actually engaging in battle.

    I don't consider avoiding them winning the fight, it is denying them the fight... it is a very different experience. It also shouldn't be the only solution there is for a pirate, the systems are in place to give you a fighting chance, however there is a major flaw in it namely the black screen and the inability to respond while the offender can start the engagement. It gives them the ability to fight you while all you can do is hear them shooting or slicing you up.

    I don't really care if in the end I win or lose, if it was a good battle. However the current system denies any type of good battle after the first if the victors position them properly and with enough man power on a ship to cover all the spawn points.

    The only ship I haven't experienced it on in a consistent manner is the Galleon, because it provides enough space. The different places and variety that the chances of them being able to cover all the spawn points is just not possible. You can at least load in, get your footing and engage.

    I know how to avoid players, I just really don't want to anymore, there is no reason for me to not take risks. It is the main enjoyment in the game that I have being it friendly interaction or combat that comes out of it. They can steal all my loot, all my supplies and I could care less... however if the game just denies me the ability of doing anything to even remotely contest their aggressive behavior. Now that is when I get annoyed and frustrated with the situation.

    Avoiding problems is not the same as solving them.

  • @vin-delanos said in PvP: Smaller Crews vs bigger Crews:

    And thew best way to win a fight against a bigger crew is not to be there in the first place. You can deny almost anyone a chance at fighting you if you maintain good situational awareness.

    While I agree with the initial statement, the later is not true. Any larger ship can always force a fight on you given enough time and equal sailing skills due to higher terminal velocity.
    The only thing that good situational awareness gives you is to lower the gold /h gained by the attacker by making the attack take longer. While that helps, the problem is, many people do not care about that and instead are just hunting you for the lols. In that case, you are just screwed and any hour you previously have invested is lost.

  • @nabberwar spawn protection is a good idea. The ability to act in it isn't.

    The ability to kill and hurt people while they are in a black screen, man you can even hear them slicing you up, is just as bad as having the ability to walk around in a god mode state. Just because someone offers a bad fix for a problem, doesn't make the problem disappear.

    @Galactic-Geek I agree with you on a lot of topics, but seriously never been boarded while solo against an organized group coming up both ladders at the same time... one of them is most likely going to get on. Also are you going to claim you never die in battle? EVER? You never make a mistake, you never get overrun by multiple people? Sorry, but even the best die at some point.

    Just stating don't lose, don't play on a sloop, don't play solo is not really reasonable here boys. The game provides these options and these options highlight an issue with the spawn system. I am a bit disappointed in your short sighted answers here, I am used to better from both of you.

    Should the solo player not be given the chance to fight back if their attackers are not bothering to sink them? Is it reasonable to ask not to start the fight off with already a bullet in your brain that one cannot even avoid because they are still loading in? Why not have the battle wait till after the black screen is no longer in effect? Give the person a fighting chance, they are out numbered anyway and most probably going to lose, but does it have to happen in such an unfair manner?

    The fact that I have experienced the sound of a blunderbuss shot in the black screen, seeing ghost particles and being on the ferry as my spawn. It is just not okay. At that point I just left the game... I didn't care that I lost the battle, but they were spawn camping me, they weren't sinking me and I am a stubborn old legend that has turned those fights before. The fact that I couldn't even see my killer before being sent back to the old man at the wheel... that just went to far. They killed me 4 times, the only decent fight I has was the first one... the rest was me starting on a spot in the ship I wasn't sure of, with 50 to 0 health and three guys on my ship with at least one already attacking me.

    All I am asking for here is to give me 100 health and 0.5 secs of vision before the battle starts. Is that an odd thing to expect from a spawn system?

  • @hawk-anonymous said in PvP: Smaller Crews vs bigger Crews:

    @vin-delanos said in PvP: Smaller Crews vs bigger Crews:

    And thew best way to win a fight against a bigger crew is not to be there in the first place. You can deny almost anyone a chance at fighting you if you maintain good situational awareness.

    While I agree with the initial statement, the later is not true. Any larger ship can always force a fight on you given enough time and equal sailing skills due to higher terminal velocity.
    The only thing that good situational awareness gives you is to lower the gold /h gained by the attacker by making the attack take longer. While that helps, the problem is, many people do not care about that and instead are just hunting you for the lols. In that case, you are just screwed and any hour you previously have invested is lost.

    Well you'll have to explain to me what I'm doing wrong then, because I'm almost never caught unless I want to be.

  • @cotu42 said in PvP: Smaller Crews vs bigger Crews:

    @vin-delanos said in PvP: Smaller Crews vs bigger Crews:

    @cotu42 said in PvP: Smaller Crews vs bigger Crews:

    @zockeraxel

    You can scuttle the ship when camped.

    And thew best way to win a fight against a bigger crew is not to be there in the first place. You can deny almost anyone a chance at fighting you if you maintain good situational awareness.

    What happens if you don't play completely risk free? Not everyone is a little mouse running from anything that moves. Sorry to say, but the spawn system is not optimal at the moment. This doesn't change whether or not you are actually engaging in battle.

    I don't consider avoiding them winning the fight, it is denying them the fight... it is a very different experience. It also shouldn't be the only solution there is for a pirate, the systems are in place to give you a fighting chance, however there is a major flaw in it namely the black screen and the inability to respond while the offender can start the engagement. It gives them the ability to fight you while all you can do is hear them shooting or slicing you up.

    I don't really care if in the end I win or lose, if it was a good battle. However the current system denies any type of good battle after the first if the victors position them properly and with enough man power on a ship to cover all the spawn points.

    The only ship I haven't experienced it on in a consistent manner is the Galleon, because it provides enough space. The different places and variety that the chances of them being able to cover all the spawn points is just not possible. You can at least load in, get your footing and engage.

    I know how to avoid players, I just really don't want to anymore, there is no reason for me to not take risks. It is the main enjoyment in the game that I have being it friendly interaction or combat that comes out of it. They can steal all my loot, all my supplies and I could care less... however if the game just denies me the ability of doing anything to even remotely contest their aggressive behavior. Now that is when I get annoyed and frustrated with the situation.

    Avoiding problems is not the same as solving them.

    If the enemy is in a position to spawn camp you, then you have lost the fight. Accept it and move on.

  • @vin-delanos does that mean the spawn system should not provide me with a full health bar, vision, mobility and the ability to fight back?

    I lost the battle, they are not sinking me... that is supposed to be a risk on their part. I am a pretty decent fighter, but if I am not able to engage the fight against multiple targets at the same time as them engaging with me... we have an issue. Give the person a fighting chance, they are out numbered anyway and most probably going to lose, but does it have to happen in such an unfair manner?

    One battle doesn't need to be the end, if the war is prolonged by them unnecessarily.

  • @cotu42 said in PvP: Smaller Crews vs bigger Crews:

    @vin-delanos does that mean the spawn system should not provide me with a full health bar, vision, mobility and the ability to fight back?

    I lost the battle, they are not sinking me... that is supposed to be a risk on their part. I am a pretty decent fighter, but if I am not able to engage the fight against multiple targets at the same time as them engaging with me... we have an issue. Give the person a fighting chance, they are out numbered anyway and most probably going to lose, but does it have to happen in such an unfair manner?

    One battle doesn't need to be the end, if the war is prolonged by them unnecessarily.

    If they have killed you and are spawn camping, they have won. You have a very useful tool at that point - you can scuttle your ship without restriction.

    They aren't the ones prolonging the fight unnecessarily, you are. And to just respawn endlessly only to be camped again and again is just stubbornness on your part.

    You lost the fight. Respawn. If you are spawn camped, then just accept that the other side has won and move on.

  • @vin-delanos I might also lose if I have full health, vision and start the fight the same time as my opponents.

    I don't know why people insist that because I lost a single fight, I should not be able to expect the spawn system to grant me the basic standards of 100 health and the ability to fight. At that point the game is actually making me lose instead of my own abilities and those of my opponents. I want to lose because of the pirates ability and not just because a system is flawed.

    They are with more people, they are on my ship and why do they also need to get a free shot while my avatar is just standing there while all I see is a black screen?

    Just because I am stubborn does it require them to get more advantages than they already have due to the failure of the loading screen being longer than the placement of my avatar in the world without any safeguards?

  • @zockeraxel Lets address the issues you seem to be having.

    You suggest that a smaller crew has no chance against a bigger crew that knows what they are doing?

    True and false, so lets go in depth into the matter.

    If you have the larger ship and your crew is good, then yes going up against them with a smaller crew is hard. I said hard though, not impossible. If you have the smaller crew that would imply that you are sailing the smaller ship. Which dictates that you have the maneuverability advantage over the bigger ships.

    If you are having problems getting away from the bigger ships while sailing the smaller ones then I suggest you learn more about the game and get better. If your problem is that once they are on board you have no way to fight back then all I can say is you need to learn more about the game and get better, because if you are getting caught then that is on you not the game.

    I am an avid PvP'er. My crew mate and I will hunt Galleons while in a sloop. We have gone half way across the map to get to a sloop just to turn back around and go the other direction when we see a Galleon.

    The PvP will come with experience. Go out there and get your feet wet. You might think the game is unbalanced to smaller crews but it really is not. SoT is one of the only games I know of where personal player skill is more important than character skills or in game special abilities. The game is really balanced.

    This does not mean you can automatically just ignore your surroundings though. Again the game is heavy around player skill and knowledge of the game. One of the things you don't want to happen is have the larger ships get the drop on you. Always watch your horizon frequently and keep note of any ships you see. Do they have the wind at their backs? A full sail Galleon is deceptively fast. You might think you got time but you don't. How is your ship parked? Can they see you easily? If you decide to run can you? Is your anchor down? Will you be sailing with or against the wind if and when the enemy shows up?

    As the smaller crew you have more things to think about.

    What about the engaging?

    Do you have any GPB's? Well then can you get on their boat when they are chasing you? Well are their any islands or rock formations you can snake through or sail around?? Any storms nearby that you can use to your advantage?? Any cursed cannon balls?? How much room do I have before I run out of space with the headwind? If I turn around can I get to an island before they catch me with that tail wind?

    You have to be on your toes constantly thinking about all of these things.

    Even before the engagement happens you have to make sure you are prepped for one just in case. If you are not prepped then you are basically choosing the run away and drive by turn in tactic. Which is fine, sometimes I use that tactic when I'm too lazy to fight.

    1 of the best crews I ever fought against with my crew mate was a 4 man Galleon. These guys were on their game. Always knew when I was going to sneak on board. Always knew where we were. Their cannon shots hit us way more than they missed. The reason why we won? They got complacent. They thought we weren't a threat. We kept pelting them over and over while going in circles around them. This went on for little over half an hour. Us trying to get on their ship, them trying to get on ours, shooting cannons at each other. Eventually I finally got on board and noticed a very very important detail :). We shot them with 1 ballast ball and the game was over :).

    If the situations were different we would have changed our tactics.

    Its all about what you know and how you sail.

    I will say this though, if you get boarded and it is at the stage of spawn camping, just Scuttle your boat, you lost. You can keep trying if you want. Just don't come in here and complain about spawn camping next :).

    SIDE NOTE I agree with @CotU42. They still need to fix the spawning with the models loading before the player gets out of black screen. It doesn't effect a lot of players but it does effect some and this is a HUGE disadvantage towards them. I was always in favor of the invisible character model that is invincible until the player moves. There is worry about the advantage players would have of being able to see everything thats happening on their ship while being invisible but we could always find ways to work around that I believe. I would go into more detail but just realized how late it is.

    Night night

  • @zockeraxel

    u could to start of make sure u sail in a way they even cant jump with 4 on your ship. I sail solo sloop or sometimes duo brig. I fight galleon, i / we sink galleons. I / we are the smaller crew.

    Yes bigger crew has an advantage but the game is more than just head on fight eachother there is something called tactic. Use that to your advantage.

  • @cotu42 I have died and lost plenty of times, and have mentioned some of those experiences here on these forums (usually in the Tavern Tales section), but to counter your double-ladder comment, the idea is to never put yourself in a position so that they can board your ladders in the first place. If you're quick on the helm and sails, they should never be able to leave the water, making them easy pickings or stranding themselves and temporarily evening the odds in the ship-to-ship battle.

    @Vin-Delanos While spawn camping is tough to beat, it's not impossible (if you're not soloing). Simply spawn in together to increase your chances of getting out successfully. I've had numerous times where I would win the overall battle because I was able to spawn in, overtake them, and then sink them first. The point is, the fight isn't over until the ship is sunk. If they're spawn camping you, it's either to troll you or to steal your supplies, and if they're doing that, without ensuring that your ship is sinking first, then they're making a potentially grave mistake.

  • @xultanis-dragon well stated, most likely better worded than my ramblings.

    I don't mind spawn killing, just the way the system is providing those that do it with a free shot and nothing that can be done about it. Which is more common on a small vessel due to the limited space to spawn.

    A spawn system should not facilitate the victor with additional benefits that determine the outcome of the next battle.

    It isn't a rampant problem, even though it should be addressed. When it happens it feels more like the game is denying you a fighting chance based on a single mistake instead of the opponents actually beating you.

  • @galactic-geek I agree, it was a mistake on my end to be in the situation in the first place. However I am no push over and extremely stubborn.

    I have turned battles against my opponents, due to them not sinking me. Though that one mistake at the start was apparently the entire determination of that battle. Cause each time I tried returning I hear people killing me while I am still loading in... it made me cringe inside. That isn't a valid way to die in my opinion, they are literally beating up an inanimate object that doesn't move, defend or attack... which is supposed to be me? If they beat me while I can fight back.. fair enough you bested me. This issue of being in a blackscreen and my avatar being in the game before I was. Just feels like the game says No, instead of them beating me.

    When with multiple people you can go together to combat this effect at least, two spawn points will be active at the same time and fighting together is always better.

  • @zockeraxel i have the luck of not coming accross any crews who can defeat me . it is rare for me to find a crew that is good enough to beat me. i dont know if its because i never run into experienced players or if its because the galleon is easy to run around on and manouver to get easy kills.

  • @zockeraxel said in PvP: Smaller Crews vs bigger Crews:

    So, i've come across multiple bigger Crews when i was in a small one and i always noticed, that as a smaller Crew you don't event have a glimp of a chance to combat bigger Crews if they know what they are doing. It often happens that 4 Players of a bigger Crew just jump onto yoor Sloop and Spawncamp you.

    I just wanted to make a PSA for everyone (not saying this happened to you) I was killing a sloop crew solo while I was sailing their ship into a rock. One of the guys had a very loud open mic with background noise, I could hear where he was going to spawn before he even loaded in.

    So people with bad mics, fix them!

  • It isn’t that hard to take out a galleon with a 2-man sloop. Most of the galleons out there are pretty bad nowadays - there’s some killer sloop crews though (and sloops are much harder to actually sink).

    Galleons can’t turn and are fast to sink because of the difficulties in bailing. Just drop the old gunpowder barrel on them and board in the chaos.

  • @zockeraxel

    If you let an enemy vessel get in range it's your bad. They either surprised you or you weren't tight on security. I solo sloop 90% of the time. If you can see a ship in the horizon they can certainly see you. Always try to be sneaky when doing long quests on a big island, park yourself near to where skelletons shoot out from ut that they dont have an angle on you , so you at least hear when some one is coming if your busy. Never have your anchor down so you can take off in a heartbeat. You always have to minimize ship's profile against background so you are not a visible target. Many times I see sloops of rigs filled with loot with lights on from miles and miles away , and I immediately beeline for it, ram it and sink it with a bucket and loot it before even crew even notices me. Galleons and rigs fall prey to this 80% of the time. Even galleons when I go inside have neglected top damage making my job even easier. When you get spawned camped , come out of the ferry together as a team not individually. Other than that just keep a lookout and practice pvp when it does happen. You Can out maneuver bigger ships. Game mechanics are fine.

  • @d4m0r3d
    Agreed. It is very, very hard to find a decent crew on the seas.

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