Sea of Thieves is the Worst and Most Intresting Game I've Ever Played

  • Sea of Thieves is both the most interesting game I have ever played, and the worst game I have ever played. There has never been a AAA game with as interesting a concept, and there has never been a AAA game that executes on its concept so poorly. Rare have the greatest imaginations in the industry, and the worst designers.

    Imagine a game where you and your friends play as legendary pirates, and go on epic voyages to exotic islands to grab cursed treasure, all while fighting off monsters and thieves alike. Sounds amazing, doesn't it? Now go and actually do it, and get bored out of your mind because every voyage is the same, there’s hardly any piracy, and the PvE ‘dangers’ are entirely monotonous by the third time you have to fight them.

    Work Before Pleasure

    Bad design waiting for you as soon as you load into the tavern. If you want to do anything, you have to stock up the ship first. After the five minutes it took to load into the game, you have to send another five minutes doing chores.

    I Wish I Could AFK.

    The fundamental action of sailing itself is mind numbingly dull. It's a matter of pointing the ship in the right direction, making sure the sails are angled, and then doing nothing. Actually, it would be better if you did nothing! That way, you could AFK on your phone until you arrived. But 2 things stop you: The wind changes direction, and the ship slowly turns left or right on it's own. The only reason these mechanics exist are to stop you from AFKing through 40% of the game. They provide no depth. You might say it's more entertaining with a crew, and you're right, but even then it invariably devolves into 1 person doing ship chores while everyone else AFKs. There may be a conversation among the crew, but the game isn't providing or even facilitating that.

    Busy Work

    The first kind of voyage you might have is digging up chests. These will rely on either your spatial reasoning and map reading, or your memory of whatever island you're on. (Or your ability to look things up.) These can actually be a little engaging, at least the first hundred times. Trouble is, the better you get at it, the faster you'll get through it, leaving more time for all the other, less interesting stuff. Another kind of voyage involves running around an island until you find an animal, which is as in depth and exciting as it sounds. The last kind of voyage involves fighting skeletons, which we'll get to now.

    Skeletons, The Worst Enemy Design Ever

    Skeletons! This game's only kind of land based enemy! Naturally, because they're the only land based enemy, they’re super in-depth and very well polished. They come in 3 varieties: Stunlock, Hitscan, and Bomber. Stunlock skeletons chase you around, and fighting them comes down to hitting first. That's all there is to it. If you hit them first, you win. If they hit you first, you'll get stunlocked for half your health before being launched away. Hitscan skeletons stand still, then do damage to you automatically. No counterplay when there's a few of them, you just kind of die. Finally, Bomber skeletons (added 3 months after release and 90% of the playerbase quitting) run up to you and explode. Like Gold Hoarder voyages, they're a bit of a diamond in the rough, because they do require decent aim and can be used to your advantage. A big issue with the skeletons is that they are made harder by giving them more health and lowering the amount of time they take to aim. On high level voyages, this means 9 swings per skeleton, and that pirates have 15 frames, or half a second (on Xbox) to react to a gun being aimed.

    Pathetic Dave, Pioneer of the Meta

    The meta for protecting your loot is to run away. If you and your pursuer have different kinds of ships, you can go faster than them and escape automatically after maybe a half hour. There is no counterplay to that. If you and your opponents have the same kind of ship, you have you keep running away until you bore them into quitting. Not only that, but if you jump off the ship to board, that will give the enemy something to do. It will engage them. Don't do that. The meta for protecting your loot in this game is to bore your opponents into quitting. What the (expletive)!? How terrible do you have to be at game design to actively reward players for BORING others into quitting!? It seems to me the entire design team for this game haven't so much as watched an Extra Credits YouTube video, because this is some first day of game design 101 stuff right here.

    PvE Challenge, Or Rather, The Lack Thereof

    Twycross, UK
    August 2nd
    “Remember, No Challenge”

    All is calm in the halls of Rare studios, as the developers celebrate the release of Cursed Sails. Suddenly, a noise. Sonic Bob bursts in, panting from an exhausting sprint.

    “I… I was looking at Reddit, and… the players… they… the skeleton ships, they… the players are sinking! The ships, they aren't a guaranteed win! They're… CHALLENGING!”

    A moment of total silence passes over the studio. Then, the screams. Mayhem erupts. Employees sprint through the cubicles, crying and wailing. The fire alarm goes off. Fistfights and looting starts. One developer crashes through the window, taking a final bite of his plain toast as he plummets 6 stories. Joe Neate emerges from his office, a red glow in his eyes. He savagely lays into his coworkers, tossing them aside as carelessly as he says “um” during developer update videos.
    But then, a beacon of hope emerges. With a brilliant beam of light, an employee has an answer. “Everyone”, Shelly Preston declares, “We will nerf the skeleton ships!” Relief settles over the office as this solution is proposed. No longer will players sometimes lose because of a challenge. Once again, everyone can be a winner, even the open crews.

    Every PvE challenge has followed this course; It's hard, sometimes people lose, Rare nerfs it because they can't have difficulty, and now experienced players find it monotonously easy. They even do the same thing for their grinds. While I don't agree with arbitrary chore lists, it's even worse to create a grind and then make it easier, erasing the effort of anyone who has already completed it.

    There is no challenge from the environment in Sea of Thieves. Get arbitrarily killed by hitscan skellies? Don't worry, life is infinite. Fighting a sea monster? Don't sweat it, they've all been nerfed into oblivion. Sink somehow? Once again, not an issue, you can just sail back and collect your loot. If you have a rowboat (there's one on every other island), you don't even have to sail back.

    PvP Issues

    While the PvP is exciting, and it's certainly this game's strong suit most of the time, it has a massive list of issues. Hit registration is very bad. On average, about half of all hitmarkers are lies. Sword lunges are particularly hurt by this, as lunges that looked like they hit, and sometimes even ones that did hit often still leave you stunned for 2 seconds. Fights can be decided by a malfunctioning sword lunge. Sword combat in general has been obliterated in the past months, in a misguided effort to shrink the skill gap. Balance is also a mess, as the Blunderbuss is objectively the best weapon in the game for almost every situation.

    Ship combat is pretty good, but still lacks as much depth as it should due to the very limited tool set ships have. Rare tried to add depth with destructible ships, but unfortunately disabling the mast and wheel is simply not as effective as putting shots in the lower deck, and anchor dropping with a cannonball was removed because soloopers were complaining.

    Crossplay is another issue. Having played on both PC and console, I can assure you there's quite a gap. Other than faster loading times and higher FPS, there's a difference in that using a controller takes some work, but mouse and keyboard is effortless. Strafing, aiming, bunnyhopping, it's just so much easier. Sadly, crossplay cannot be disabled, leaving console players at a serious disadvantage. Rare said opt-out would be released 3 months ago now, and I'm having a tough time believing that it's still happening.

    Miscellaneous Thoughts

    The Devil's Roar was a failed attempt at adding a more exciting, high risk - high reward area. Rare fell short by forgetting that difficulty requires counterplay. (That's the same issue that this game has with skeletons.) When the island you're parked at starts to smoke, you need to sail away, wait 5 minutes for the eruption to stop, then sail back. The issue is that waiting 5 minutes isn't fun, and staying at the island is not an option. The earthquakes are another problem. There's nothing you can do about the ground shaking. You just move slower, sorry! The skeletons aren't affected though, so a bomber skeleton can still run up and off you, but now you can't hit their barrel or run away.

    The Tall Tales were a waste of resources. While they were fun the first time I played them, I certainly don't care to do any of them a second time (except the trickster and the gold hoarder.) That developer time would have been better spent on other, more replayable things.

    The Arena would be great were it not for 3 issues: First, the mode discorages PvP and encourages running away. The meta is to dig chests and run away from almost every fight. The second issue is crossplay, which I've already mentioned. A third, smaller issue is that games can be decided simply by which ship is lucky enough to spawn next to all the chests and not be attacked. The unpredictable nature of open crews add another element of randomness, as they choose to attack ships at random, and getting attacked constantly really slows a crew down.

    Bilge Rat chores are a mixed bag. The first one, Skeleton Thrones, was my favorite. It added a unique challenge that didn't ask you to do the same thing a million times, and required some cooperation. They went downhill after that, with such treasures of commendations as: Kill 100 mermaid statues. Kill 200 cursed skeletons. Sell 30 mermaid gems each to 3 factions. If Rare goes back to what made Bilge Rat adventures a fun challenge instead of a grind, they'd become one of my favorite parts of the game.

    Gilded Athenas’ were great, as they allowed for such high stakes piracy. I hope they come back.

    Ideal Sea of Thieves

    Those 3 weeks the Cursed Sails event was running were the best time I've ever had gaming. That's because the skeleton ships were interesting, challenging, and emergent. There were many strategies for fighting the ships, they were tough as nails, and there was loads of emergent gameplay and player interaction. Sometimes you won, sometimes you lost, sometimes everyone worked together and split the loot, and sometimes everyone killed each other. I could go on for an hour about all the crazy stuff my friends and I did in those 3 weeks. It was challenging, exciting, emergent PvPvE, exactly what Sea of Thieves should be.

    But that's gone now. Skeleton ships have been made easy and unrewarding. I haven't seen a ship even attempt one in months.

    Conclusion

    Sea of Theives has a great core but is severly hampered by poor design choices. If it is to become the console selling exclusive it wants to be, it will have to change make 2 radical changes to its design philosophy.

    Firstly, Rare needs to move away from the achievement oriented solooping crowd. This game is held back too much by pandering to those who want to quietly grind levels and avoid player interaction. That's not the optimal experince, and pandering to that playerbase is stopping them from experinceng the PvPvE emergent social game this is supposed to be.

    Secondly and even more importantly, Sea of Thieves shouldn't be afraid of challange. It's good to lose sometimes! It defines victory. Make the PvE deadly, so that crews either have to skill up or team up to overcome them. Bring back the kind of difficulty seen in Cursed Sails and the original Megaladon fight. When some monster emerges from the sea, people should go “Holy S**T!”, not “Oh, this again”

    Focusing on delivering challanging PvPvE emergent moments instead of quiet lonely grinding will make this a great game. Recapture that Cursed Sails experince, yeah?

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  • @wilbymagicbear

    The meta for protecting your loot is to run away. If you and your pursuer have different kinds of ships, you can go faster than them and escape automatically after maybe a half hour. There is no counterplay to that. If you and your opponents have the same kind of ship, you have you keep running away until you bore them into quitting. Not only that, but if you jump off the ship to board, that will give the enemy something to do. It will engage them. Don't do that. The meta for protecting your loot in this game is to bore your opponents into quitting. What the (expletive)!? How terrible do you have to be at game design to actively reward players for BORING others into quitting!? It seems to me the entire design team for this game haven't so much as watched an Extra Credits YouTube video, because this is some first day of game design 101 stuff right here.

    I made a post way back about how easy running is in this game. It essentially stated that if you get caught you have no one to blame but yourself. The sheer amount of options the lead ship has against the pursuer is enormous. The only time a player should get caught is a random Kraken, otherwise people can just run for days.

    https://www.seaofthieves.com/forum/topic/78201/the-power-of-running-and-why-its-your-fault-you-got-caught/2

    I really wish their was more incentive for people to scrap. Currently fights are like hours between for something like 5 minutes of action. I understand some people don't like the whole death-match idea, but their exist no doubt in me that having a Last boat standing Arena game-mode would draw back a large amount of PvP players. Unfortunately the current Arena just doesn't grant that PvP fix many of us desire.

  • @wilbymagicbear

    So there's a lot of your post that I disagree with and there's a lot that made me feel like maybe Sea of Thieves just isn't the game for you, but I strongly agree with the sentiment that Rare need to stop pandering to lazy players who don't want to face a challenge.

    This is so true.

    There's been a lot of catering to players who are lazy and lack a healthy attention span. Just mentally lazy people.

    I logged in to a galleon with strangers the other night. Some new player (sounded like a 10 or 12 year old kid) just grabbed the wheel of the ship and just started asking over and over "what do I do? what do I do?" so we looked over at a skull fort and said "See that skull in the sky there? There's a ton of treasure there."

    And then the kid is like "Okay but like, what do I do? where do I go?" Despite numerous attempts to advise this new player on some of the basics, I guess he just imploded from his general lack of patience to learn and chose to quit instead.

    And that is the main problem

    We have entered an age where spending any amount of time on trial and error to learn how to handle a challenge is just too much to ask. At my young age of 23, I'm ashamed to say that this mentality falls more in line with people coming up in my generation than anything.

    Unfortunately, Rare appears to be going with that flow. Rather than resisting this mentality and challenging their players, they make things easier so that these seekers of instant gratification feel more compelled to engage with more parts of the game.

    Rare listen to player feedback a lot, and they measure it against telemetry data that shows how players behave and engage with the game.

    For example, they communicated to us that the first Tall Tale, "The Shroudbreaker" was going to become a bit easier to decipher because they noticed in their internal data that players would quit at a certain point. In my opinion, this was one of the easiest puzzles to understand. With a little patience, anyone can get through it.

    But that's the problem. People no longer have patience to think. Instead they just quit. They want instant gratification.

    And I love Sea of Thieves. I love and support Rare,. I believe they have a true passion for making Sea of Thieves, and making it the best that it can be. But I have to say, rather than accommodating the rage-quit/Instant gratification culture, I think they should take the reigns and condition players against that mentality when they play Sea of Thieves.

    They've taken the initiative to be different already, just by making Sea of Thieves what it is. My thinking is that they should not back down from making real challenges that require thought and persistence. They should be leaders in this regard, not followers.

  • @wilbymagicbear

    Firstly, Rare needs to move away from the achievement oriented solooping crowd. This game is held back too much by pandering to those who want to quietly grind levels and avoid player interaction. That's not the optimal experince, and pandering to that playerbase is stopping them from experinceng the PvPvE emergent social game this is supposed to be.

    Secondly and even more importantly, Sea of Thieves shouldn't be afraid of challange. It's good to lose sometimes! It defines victory. Make the PvE deadly, so that crews either have to skill up or team up to overcome them. Bring back the kind of difficulty seen in Cursed Sails and the original Megaladon fight. When some monster emerges from the sea, people should go “Holy S**T!”, not “Oh, this again”

    I would vote up for this part.

  • @goedecke-michel said in Sea of Thieves is the Worst and Most Intresting Game I've Ever Played:

    @wilbymagicbear

    Firstly, Rare needs to move away from the achievement oriented solooping crowd. This game is held back too much by pandering to those who want to quietly grind levels and avoid player interaction. That's not the optimal experince, and pandering to that playerbase is stopping them from experinceng the PvPvE emergent social game this is supposed to be.

    Secondly and even more importantly, Sea of Thieves shouldn't be afraid of challange. It's good to lose sometimes! It defines victory. Make the PvE deadly, so that crews either have to skill up or team up to overcome them. Bring back the kind of difficulty seen in Cursed Sails and the original Megaladon fight. When some monster emerges from the sea, people should go “Holy S**T!”, not “Oh, this again”

    I would vote up for this part.

    Agreed!

  • @chronodusk
    Yeah, i also love this game, but hate the nerfs

  • First I agree with this and I though exactly the same thing:
    @chronodusk a dit dans Sea of Thieves is the Worst and Most Intresting Game I've Ever Played :

    So there's a lot of your post that I do disagree with and there's a lot that made me feel like maybe Sea of Thieves just isn't the game for you.

    The part that I 100% agree on is this:

    @wilbymagicbear a dit dans Sea of Thieves is the Worst and Most Intresting Game I've Ever Played :

    Skeletons, The Worst Enemy Design Ever

    Skeletons! This game's only kind of land based enemy! Naturally, because they're the only land based enemy, they’re super in-depth and very well polished. They come in 3 varieties: Stunlock, Hitscan, and Bomber. Stunlock skeletons chase you around, and fighting them comes down to hitting first. That's all there is to it. If you hit them first, you win. If they hit you first, you'll get stunlocked for half your health before being launched away. Hitscan skeletons stand still, then do damage to you automatically. No counterplay when there's a few of them, you just kind of die. Finally, Bomber skeletons (added 3 months after release and 90% of the playerbase quitting) run up to you and explode. Like Gold Hoarder voyages, they're a bit of a diamond in the rough, because they do require decent aim and can be used to your advantage. A big issue with the skeletons is that they are made harder by giving them more health and lowering the amount of time they take to aim. On high level voyages, this means 9 swings per skeleton, and that pirates have 15 frames, or half a second (on Xbox) to react to a gun being aimed.

    Skeletons are just poorly designed in my opinion.
    I have multiple videos of skeletons being just god at doing anything in this game, and it mostly is because of their aimbot capacity:
    One example :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6LmTDVz-u4
    and another: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkExptybFd8
    Watch the end, that's where it's interesting.

    On Athena voyages they just keep poping up like mushrooms and every time they do, I just take a deep sigh because I know I'll have to sword each one of them 9 times (assuming they won't be eating their golden cheating banana that gives them back roughly 70-80% of their life) before being able to actually play the game. That's how it feels to me, on this "pirate legend level", skeletons aren't something I play against, they're a chore. I have the best time in the game when I'm actually doing non-Athena voyages, where skeletons are difficult without the health-pool the size of the freaking Sea and without being like Lucky Luke: god-aim and shooting faster than their shadow !

    I do agree too on the Devil's Roar part. There are a few things in this game where I scratch my head, asking myself if the people behind those mechanics can actually make the difference between a challenge and a chore.
    I'd understand if they reworked skeletons and Devil's Roar (especially volcanoes since they're just not interesting at all) but what I don't understand is when they nerf everything else without looking at what's actually driving people and "veterans" like me, crazy.

    I absolutely adore this game, I fell in love with it, no doubt about that. But there are soooo much mechanics in this game that just get on my nerves every damn time I'm playing... I just think that Rare should hire some people with the sole purpose of testing the game, before Insider releases, in order to just check what is actually fun and what is not. And just to be clear: don't nerf anything. Losing can be fun and engaging to. ;)

  • This is a PEGI 12 game, and a large percentage of the playerbase are... you guessed it: 12 years old. Only 1.6% of the playerbase are legends (discounting the 33% of players who don't have the achievement for setting sail for the first time), thus, they're going to make changes that positively affect the largest number of players each time they do a balance pass.

    Whilst it's easy to lose players by boring them to death or to stare at your phone whilst sailing, there are easier fixes for this: why waste 30 minutes gently fleeing from another sloop when you can blow them to smithereens with a barrel? Why gorm out whilst sailing when you could fish or fire off to each island you visit to collect supplies? Why not use those supplies to blow up some skeleton ships?

    The key point in the opening post seems to be counterplays (or the lack thereof); there are a lot of counter-plays to the listed issues.

    • Getting caught by melee skeletons? Jump round them as you swing.
    • The island is erupting? Run towards the volcano after each volley and you're guaranteed to dodge any bolides heading your way. Complete your objective and sail back in your shiny new ship.
    • Tired of people running in arena? Steal their chests and sink them.

    Aside from these, I 100% agree that Cursed Sails gave me some of the best experiences I've ever had in a game - it felt fresh and dangerous, and getting rammed by an unidentified player galleon mid-fight always brought me to fever-pitch excitement.

    I think, fundamentally, we'll just have to trust in Rare that they're going to cater for those who are a little more comfortable at sea. They're still effectively on cooldown after the Anniversary patch, so let's see what they come up with.

  • @frankblort I don't fish as I sail because I hate fishing, for the same reason I hate sailing. Gathwring supplies is similarly dull. Sailing across the map is something you have to do for forts and what not. I never said melee skeletons are hard, just boring. Getting an new ship every time a volcano erupts is not efficient or practical. You can't catch and sink ships the are running away, at least not in a timely manner, because of how overpowered running away is.

  • @wilbymagicbear said in Sea of Thieves is the Worst and Most Intresting Game I've Ever Played:

    the worst game I have ever played.

    If true, then you have been very blessed in your exposure to video games. =P

  • @vac-hombre said in Sea of Thieves is the Worst and Most Intresting Game I've Ever Played:

    @wilbymagicbear said in Sea of Thieves is the Worst and Most Intresting Game I've Ever Played:

    the worst game I have ever played.

    If true, then you have been very blessed in your exposure to video games. =P

    Hyperbole

  • @wilbymagicbear said in Sea of Thieves is the Worst and Most Intresting Game I've Ever Played:

    Hyperbole

    Joke. =D

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