Bunny hopping

@cawolves said in Bunny hopping:

Well it happened, the worst sot experience I have had and I've been playing since the alpha. Bunny hopping PC player gets on our gallon and starts spewing childish and voluar insults at everyone including a female player in our crew. Nothing we could do about it becuase of the constant auto jumping that is only possible on PC. I'm disgusted by the the way some people play, not for fun or for loot (we didnt have any) but just for the sake of griefing other players. Perhaps if there was a 1 second delay for all players in between jumping, this sort of obvious advantage that PC players have could be mitigated. Or is this how the game is intended to be played? Where because you are on PC you become almost unkillable and are free to harass other players for the lolz?

There is no "auto jumping" on PC. You simply press the spacebar over and over again like you can press your jump button over and over again on your controller.

PC players that jump do it because they have no idea what it is even for and in their little minds it makes them harder to hit. The concept of bunny hopping comes from strafe-jumping in Quake, and was carried over into Counterstrike. It has been almost a disease ever since then. The way it worked between the two games varied considerably, but in both games it was for speed so that you could run routes and maintain a constant high rate of speed while traversing the map.

The funny thing about this game is that hit registration is so iffy it really doesn't do anything good at all with getting hit by a ranged weapon.

I've been saying that Rare needs to add a slight auto aim like all FPS shooters on console. Shooting a still target with a pistol isn't easy. The PC bunny hopper can jump and aim and shoot seamlessly which a Xbox player just can't do. I just had this happen in a ship battle recently and it's frustrating as hell when one player just hops around and blasts away at your crew and you can't land a shot, or hit the guy. While it won't solve every problem it should alleviate the some of the disparity between PC and Xbox players where Xbox players can more effectively use weapons other than the blunderbuss effectively in PVP. Rare should also start considering Xbox only and PC only servers.

It is annoying... but it's not something that can only be done on PC.

If you have an Elite controller (or similar), you can map the A button to a paddle underneath and you'll be able to do this too. I use an Elite on PC and that's how I have it mapped, not for this scenario specifically, just in general because A is usually jump in platform/adventure games.

I think Rare should add a diminishing curve to the jump over time - like a hidden endurance meter or something similar.

@aliasmask said in Bunny hopping:

I agree, there should be a jump cool down. It shouldn't be very long, maybe .25 - .50 seconds. There should also be a weapon/item swap cooldown of the same time. This will help alleviate the effects of macro use which I find more annoying and borderline cheating.

You can swap weapons just as fast as a PC player if you bind them to one of the free buttons on your controller (Left and right on D-pad, and right stick push)

Bunny hopping is the devil. I find it telling that the presumption the player is a PC player relates to how fast someone pushes a button. I play on both. I jump as fast on either platform. It happens when I hit the button, not before, not after. I also find it telling that the relation comes with the disclosure the person was spewing childish garbage and vulgar insults. I promise that is a global issue in gaming. It's not platform related, it's ignorant jerk related, and frankly insisting as players do that it's PC thing only reveals the bias inherent to blindness towards one's own traditional gaming landscape. I promise gamers across the board can easily cite anecdotes and references to how platform base X has more poison in it than Y or Z.

The word of the day is bias.

There is certainly a difference in the control schemes. There is certainly a rotational difference considering mouse and sensitivity imbalance. There is for some an ability to take advantage of that sensitivity and aim faster (personally I aim much worse using a mouse and slower as I have to correct over reaction). But this doesn't let the jumping animation complete faster, the server to recognize you've landed sooner, nor does it speed up how fast someone can hit a button. That's just hype and bs. I'm all for accepting that the mouse flick picks up rotation. But actual button inputs... they're still buttons... they still need to be pushed.... they still get read by the game's input before action is committed.... this is just garbage to think otherwise and likely it'd be impossible to alter the false delusion that the differences beyond rotation and aim are that high.

Let's not even get into the idea that maybe it's those complainers issue that it tends to reflect that PC gamers simply adapt faster in games than these folks can themselves... get better sooner... and learn more quickly how to react to new things. I mean if I drove racecars my whole life and grandma drive pintos... even if put in the same car later and we raced I'd wager the racecar driver would adapt more quickly.

No, I'm not saying there aren't truths behind the notion that PC inputs outperform Xbox. I'm upset that based on how quickly someone jumps only (as based on your post) and spews garbage they 'must be PC players'. I'll be kind and presume that they were spinning to face and moving more quickly... maybe they had a PTT function which Xbox desperately should have. If that were the qualifier presented as why they must be PC I'd get it.

But jumping in and of itself is read by the server equally fast and relies on a button press. Spacebar versus "A" (Or whatever your keybind is) isn't a valid qualifier, your bias is showing.

Here's a better concern:

First, vitriolic players (which exist in both camps and in my experience leans toward console "kids" or "stoner, fps, CoD,Trash-Talker" types) are the devil. I get loosing one's cool once in a while. But certainly we can learn to insult and punk out people without all the your Momma insults and curse words, let alone the Ha-Ha N00B commentary. Players like that do create a toxic game space and should be warned until eventually banned. The pacing of that punishment is up to the company as it's their customer base that's affected... they need to decide by how much.

Second. Bunny hopping in general is an issue in gaming - ever play Fortnite on Xbox? Yea... it's a console issue as well I assure you. The PC mix is only a recent thing... yet it was there since day one. This is an issue with GAMING not PC not Xbox... get your head out of the trash.

Third, platform disparity is a thing. It's not gamers fault it's a thing. It's hardware developers fault. PC players get enough guff from myopically minded console players as is and suggesting that "PC players" are less valid as customers than console is insipid at best, insulting at worst. We deserve a unilateral playing field, all gamers deserve this. We should champion closure of on field of disparity I don't disagree.

Next time someone types "Console player" or "PC Player" change it to a racial descriptor (you know the one) when you compose the message in your head... Then maybe it will be more clear how it makes CUSTOMERS feel regardless of the platform they play on.

@cawolves Bunny hopping is a pain in the butt but there is not much that can be done about that. Make sure you report players that are rude/offensive/vulgar as that's not nice and really isn't necessary.

I do have one question though, why did you feel the need to point out that one of your crew was female? People shouldn't act like that to anyone, regardless of sex. Believe me, female gamers can handle themselves and the abuse the same way male gamers can.

@cawolves Fair enough, that's not good that she got picked on. Next time you might want to put that she was picked on because she was female, as the way you put it you made it sound like 'we must protect the female from this' sort of thing lol.
I just get a bit annoyed as people are always saying stuff on games like 'oh take it easy its a girl' or 'be nice its a girl' etc
I hope your friend reported them :)

@cawolves said in Bunny hopping:

Perhaps I'm overly defensive, a symptom of various issues console players have and hold against the pc gamers community which simply drives me nutz. Perhaps I was overly sensitive but here's the reasoning, when you draft sentences such as:

Bunny hopping PC player gets on our gallon and starts spewing childish and voluar insults at everyone including a female player in our crew. Nothing we could do about it becuase of the constant auto jumping that is only possible on PC.

Constant jumping and vulgar language are not PC only factors. Jumps are based on hitting a button with a pause between when you can and cannot. The time frame of upward motion and descent provides more than enough opportunity for the controller button to be depressed and start the next jump. It simply can be done with the same alacrity on the controller. There's even obvious evidence of this in a gigantic variety of games - using fortnite on console as an example... it's been there since launch before crossplay was even a thing on fortnite for console. The constant jumping plagues every game that allows jumping and it's not easier or harder on console or PC.

this sort of obvious advantage that PC players have could be mitigated. Or is this how the game is intended to be played?

The point is still the same. Jumping isn't a PC thing, it's not 'easier' on PC. It still requires a button press and can't be initiated until the previous jump ends. The dispairity occurs with ability to aim and jump since mouse is more sensitive and reactive. But honestly, it takes more effort and practice to actually pull off a well aimed jump shot on mouse because the sensitivity actually works against you. Those who practice the 'skill' do get good at it and it does make life hard for those who aren't used to compensating for enemies that use the tactic. I agree that the mouse aiming and character rotation is unbalanced based on PC hardware capabilities. But the focus is on jumping which isn't a "Pc Advantage, nor a PC gamer play tactic" it's just as viable and obnoxious on console.

Where because you are on PC you become almost unkillable and are free to harass other players for the lolz?

If jumping enemies are 'unkillable' that's a skill concern. I overcome these sorts of antagonists while on Console constantly. In a variety of console only games. I do admit it is stupid and I even agree with putting limiters on the jumping mechanic, nothing wrong there. But your whole opening post is remarking on PC jumpers... wrongly.

Free to harass? So no gamer or trend exists even in console gaming for childish players and insulting demeanors that are simply over the top? You are wrong. And you are clearly showing a biased interest in insulting the PC platform for falsely perceived issues that your are blinded to also existing throughout consoles and games everywhere.

---

You are overall trying to talk about balance.

I agree that is true. I also agree that players with PC can move with more fluidity and precision and though that shouldn't change the Xbox needs improvements made so that it can also move with more fluidity and precision. I'm all for hardware upgrades to the console. Driver support for various peripherals. Devs giving focus on what could be called "Action blockers" such as one solid turn rate for characters regardless of input type, more animations which must be accomplished to even up the varied character movements, whatever.

That's all fine. But without evidence that these gamers were on PC other than they spoke mean words, and jumped alot, it's neither relevant to the events nor potentially even a true event.

Your whole post could have been summarized by simply stating the valid points:

You encountered a player who jumps alot and you believe the player was on PC because of the players fluidity of motion. This created an issue where you felt disadvantaged by the ability to hop around and aim and you hadn't felt able to compensate due to sluggish console control measures.
You also had to deal with the player vocalizing or messaging or otherwise being vocally toxic. No players should act like this as it ruins the experience for everyone and is simply rude. Not to mention reportable if certain lines are crossed.
Overall, you want to see balance brought to the control measures of the game. However it's done you'd appreciate (with validity as all should hope for this) that the devs could include measures to assure that despite control schemes used all players fluidity of motion is within more reasonable limits than they are now.

Notice how this last post isn't insulting the PC gamer community? Notice how it's not insisting without any evidence that this was a PC vs Console issue? Notice how it is hallmarking your point of wanting greater game balance without vilifying PC gamers?

Were the OP more in line with the latter presentation I wouldn't get all cranky and go off in my tone. But... that's not what you did. You highlighted poor player conduct and blamed PC gamers with exclusivity. You cited a mechanic that isn't affected by control inputs but player ability to hit a button with a mechanic that allows enough input recovery time even on console/controller to repeat without delay after landing. The only thing of valid remark in the OP is that it can be, rightly, understood that aiming while jumping is potentially easier when using a mouse. Though since hit locations are of little concern in the game even a dead stick vertical jump using controller can have as dynamic an impact.

@personalc0ffee said in Bunny hopping:

@aod-fluid Not quite accurate. Our keys have a higher response time as they are mechanical and not rubber dome and a lot of keyboards have a 1000ms response time.

You can bunny hop on PC faster than on a controller and that's a fact.

Bunny hopping is still annoying no matter who is doing it but PC has an advantage there and if they are using one of those state of the art optical switches, would have an even faster response time.

But on that same hand, there are various hardware mods for controller and 3rd party devices as well so it's really a toss up.

It is annoying, and I cannot name one piece of hardware with a 1000ms response time. That is a full second of delay.

An article on Tom's Hardware says that the newest Cherry MX Red keys have a response time of 20ms, which is much more believable than a full second. I have never taken an XBox controller apart, but I would almost guarantee you that the buttons themselves are not mechanical but are instead contact switches like every other console controller on the planet.

Looking at a tear-down of an Xbox One controller, there is nothing mechanical about those buttons.

Asking an Xbox player what button they press to jump, he said he believes it is A. That is definitely a "contact" type switch, that functions more like a membrane keyboard contact. If there is any perceived difference in jumping speed on Xbox and PC it is a limitation of the software.

At some point I will get a controller out and see how jumping goes with a controller on the PC (probably tomorrow, it is already after midnight here).

@illumipirat I agree that bunny hopping is annoying and there needs to be a delay instituted (though not sure if it should be a whole second). But needing to rest and not do anything is realistic? Have you ever seen someone race hurdles or play a game of basketball?

Also bunny hopping has it's advantages...if not for it I never would have yelled at a boarder to "stop being so bouncy", which provided hours of mirth for my whole crew.

Add a range of spread inaccuracy to the shots during the following conditions...

Sights Up: Spread Level 0
Hipfire: Spread Level 1
Bunny Hopping + Sights Up: Spread Level 2
Bunny Hopping + Hipfire: Spread Level 3

Hipfire with a Eye of Reach automatically adds a Spread Level to any scenario.

Make it so they can't hit a target that well while hopping and/or hipfiring.

@personalc0ffee said in Bunny hopping:

@aod-fluid Response time is not delay.

I should have used a better term. I will go back and throw a bottom edit in for clarificative purposes.

They have a 1000hz polling rate.

My keyboard alone, The Corsair RGB LUX K70 has a 1000hz polling rate

100% Cherry MX RGB Red key switches - Fast linear actuation with no audible click.

Actuation Distance: 2mm | Operating Force: 45g

159.99 USD

K70 LUX RGB Mechanical Gaming Keyboard — CHERRY® MX RGB Red

The K70 LUX RGB has CHERRY® MX RGB Red switches backed by a lightweight aluminum chassis. CUE enabled advanced lighting control and large font keycaps deliver dynamic, vibrant multi-color backlighting.

@personalc0ffee said in Bunny hopping:

The polling rate is how often the computer checks for signal coming from the input device.

In fact, there's even discussion been had about 500hz vs 1000hz polling rates in competitive esport environments. https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753190205

For the less technical inclined, this means that keyboards sends input faster and that the computer checks for that input more often. While I do not know the polling rate of a controller, the keyboard it simply more responsive. That is a fact. Keyboards are the most responsive form of input on the market bar none.

I wondered if you were talking about the polling rate when you said "1000". Here is the thing, the polling rate at maximum speed of an Xbox one controller is 125Hz. It responds once every 8ms.

While that is slower than most new gaming hardware, it is still a very fast set up. Again, I have to think that any perceived delay in jumping is not the controller, or the hardware... it is something imparted by software (in this case, the game).

125Hz is the default polling rate for USB... not some slow arbitrary number that Microsoft chose for the Xbox. At 1000Hz the polling rate of a mouse is 1ms. That is only 7ms difference.

Not only is the time difference not that huge, but where polling rate matters is NOT in how your buttons respond. It aids in how smooth things feel when you move your mouse.

@enticed-malice These things keep coming up because people want a more even playing field when it comes to cross-play. There are certain things that give PC an advantage over Console, and they are valid complaints.

One thing that also might help is increasing the range of sensitivity on the controller. I am not sure why they are locked down as tight as they are, but the turning limitation exacerbates the Bunny Hopping situation as you simply cannot maneuver as well. Same issue when two players a PC player and a Console player confront each other head on, the PC can simply pass the other player and start striking them in the back because they can turn instantly while the Console player has a delay. This isn't game-breaking, but indeed frustrating.

I have said this before...and I will say it every time I see this discussion pop up, I suppose.

Console players chose to be console players. For the same amount of money they could have a budget gaming PC. If you chose a handicap in gaming, you probably should make better choices in the future.

I guess consider it a lesson learned?

I really don't have another way to say that, and I am not being rude by saying it. If people feel this strongly about it, they should change their habits...not beg for other people (developers and PC gamers) to change theirs.

@aod-fluid said in Bunny hopping:

I have said this before...and I will say it every time I see this discussion pop up, I suppose.

Console players chose to be console players. For the same amount of money they could have a budget gaming PC. If you chose a handicap in gaming, you probably should make better choices in the future.

I guess consider it a lesson learned?

I really don't have another way to say that, and I am not being rude by saying it. If people feel this strongly about it, they should change their habits...not beg for other people (developers and PC gamers) to change theirs.

This here is a bad argument. Using anything remotely "PC MR" as an argument is bad in general as it doesn't contribute anything.

Plain and simple, the game is designed to be cross-platform, so there should be little to no advantage between systems. There will be differences, no doubt, but they need to be more balanced.

To say players chose to play with a handicap is ridiculous. Players choose the platform that suits their needs, whether it be PC/XBox or Both. For the most part, this choice was made long before Sea of Thieves, and nobody should be expected to shell out for a PC just to level a playing field that should already be level. We aren't talking about PUBG or Fortnite where cross-platform was added way later, we are talking about a game that was designed and advertised to be played across two systems.

@personalc0ffee said in Bunny hopping:

@aod-fluid Response time is not delay.

I should have used a better term. I will go back and throw a bottom edit in for clarificative purposes.

They have a 1000hz polling rate.

My keyboard alone, The Corsair RGB LUX K70 has a 1000hz polling rate

100% Cherry MX RGB Red key switches - Fast linear actuation with no audible click.

Actuation Distance: 2mm | Operating Force: 45g

159.99 USD

K70 LUX RGB Mechanical Gaming Keyboard — CHERRY® MX RGB Red

The K70 LUX RGB has CHERRY® MX RGB Red switches backed by a lightweight aluminum chassis. CUE enabled advanced lighting control and large font keycaps deliver dynamic, vibrant multi-color backlighting.

If you have a K70, drop your polling rate back to 125Hz and go jump repeatedly in game. Let me know when you noticed a difference... If at 125Hz you match the same jump rate as when you are playing on the Xbox, then polling rate matters as much as you say for jumping.

You aren't going to notice it though...because polling rate matters very, very little in respect to button presses when you get down to the millisecond timings. It is far more important with mouse movement.

@augunslingin said in Bunny hopping:

Rare could implement a jump cool down.

and disable jumping with a weapon drawn