Spawn camping trolls in PvP (sailing you off the map to rob you of your loss rep)

  • Magus104
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    [mod edit] people throwing a match can't progress in this fashion while skilled players can spawn camp bad players and sail them out of bounds giving them this "deserter" punishment of no milestone/reputation progress.

    It takes longer to sail out of bounds and throw a match than it would to just slow down and let the other ship fill you with holes... Instead you open the door for spawn campers and trolls to take a slower victory but one that makes them troll face their way to victory robbing the other player of their time and progress. And what can the lesser skilled player do? Nothing but stare at the "scuttle your ship" posted on the ferry telling you how hey if you're being harassed just scuttle to get away... Yea well that = a deserter as well. You are contradicting your own system and statements by allowing trolls and people using hacks to not only ruin other peoples fun but prevent any and all progress. Yes I will admit this has rarely been the case in my encounters but I have also gotten up against the same person back to back multiple times trying to use that tactic and it's like ok let him get a few holes in then just run until I sink and not let him board just making it a more drawn out match but at least I get some loss exp this time.

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  • WolfManbush
    Legend

    imo as long as they are attempting to get a sink it doesn't much matter

    it's like when people bicker about weapon choices, and other ways of sinking/winning

    as long as someone is going for the sink it's all valid imo

    they aren't incentivized to do it, they just have the option to do it

    and there are counters against it

    it's fast food fights, some are gonna be sloppy and some are alright and some are great, just move it along for the goals imo

  • BurnBacon
    Champion
    Insider

    Has anyone read or know. Can’t we board a ship and attack the hourglass? Breaking it?

  • ajm123
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    U are allowed To scuttle

  • RikJaxx
    Marauder

    Understand the OP please. The problem is not that sailing the ship is a legit strategy or not, it's that by using that strategy, the loser doesn't get any losing credit. It is actually a consolation to losers, who actually try their best, knowing we will get "some" credit for the battle. But to get zero credit, nothing to show for our dedication, even in losing? That's something to drive away players for sure.

    The real problem as always been players who spawn camp combined with ship repair. Scuttling your ship is a cheap way to fix a real problem.

    The easiest way I can think that would fix that is to make it so a player cannot repair an enemy ship. A much better solution than Scuttle. That way you can still spawn camp to victory without dragging it out.

  • Arch iDeall
    Marauder

    No reward is big oof. I understand that Rare likely doesn't want players to sail away on purpose to lose quickly, but there are many instances when it happens naturaly - I won one of my first matches because the enemy spawn-camped me, while their ship was sailing towards the horizon (funny victory, but now I feel bad they got nothing for all the work lol).

  • Snear 73
    Seafarer
    Insider

    Why is this a complaint? If it works then it works and either way spawn camping is a very effective stratgy for PVP.

  • Snear 73
    Seafarer
    Insider

    @burnbacon you can only break the hourglass by sailing out of bounds no fascial harm can come to it

  • MaximusArael020
    Master
    Insider

    I agree. This happened to me (I'm not that good, and they just kept standing on the roof of my sloop throwing blunderbombs to knock me off before I could do anything [yes, yes, I know, "skill issue" and all]) and it's frustrating, but I get that it is a legit strategy.

    HOWEVER! Please everyone reading understand that the issue with this strategy isn't the strategy itself but the fact that it will deny the loser the "consolation prize" of at least some rep. I don't mind losing in these battles (it happens a lot) because I learn a little something and I get some rep for my troubles. But if I'm going to sit in a 15-minute que just to have ZERO rep because I got spawncamped or constantly bluderbombed off my ship when I TRIED to fight just feels awful.

    I'm not sure what the solution is. I get Rare not wanting to let people just sail off right away to do a super long grind of losing every match to get rep. But something has to be done to help players that are looking to participate but just get bested.

  • a10dr4651
    Commander
    Insider

    @snear-73 because the loser doesn't get any allegiance rep, it's classed as a forfeit for sailing into the red sea.

  • Snear 73
    Seafarer
    Insider

    Losing gives you next to no rep anyways. I could see that packed in the future for the "red sea" Strat that they have going on but still it is their chose of how to play the game and also you could just keep them of of your ship in the first place or play with better crews that could do more in a fight.

  • Magus104
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    @maximusarael020 Yea Like I have 0 issue with the strategy. Rare intended there to be a "consolation prize" for the loser that is why we get reputation and milestone progress when we lose via sinking normally.

    I have 0 issue with the spawn camping till we sink, 0 issue with even sailing us out of bounds except the "consolation prize" aspect. Which it is pure speculation on my part that people are doing this maliciously they may actually not know this is the case. But I suspect the more skilled players are also more knowledgeable and know exactly what they are doing and its ramifications.

    I used this strategy one myself early. More because explosions are cool but I would never do it again knowing that I am robbing the other player of their credit for the match altogether. That's just dirty.

    True Rare didn't publicly announce this is how the system works and it's something we had to learn from experiencing it ourselves. I also know it was Rares intent for people to use the system to troll others but some of the people who have done this to me have been very mouthy and clearly the troll type so seems obvious their intent and that they know exactly what they are doing.

    This game is almost 5 years old at this point. Rare has seen time and time again the way people act in their game that these behaviors patterns are completely predictable and yet they intentionally designed the system this way. I can imagine it was based off feedback from people concerned people would just throw matches to lvl up. Many of us are doing that anyway. I am 50/50 because without a timer I am not going to waste my time trying to get a 1 hour win. Between a 30-60 minute wait time to then get into a match that might last an hour... Even if a win was a whole level that wouldn't be worth that time investment.

  • Magus104
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    Kinda hurts my should that based off other peoples own complaints with strategies they assume I am complaining about the same thing. Like man I really do have to spell things out with every excruciating detail lol. Like whatever legit strategy someone might be using to win however fair or unfair is fine by me. But when the developers intend for the loser to be every so slightly rewarded for a loss and then people find out they can circumvent that loss reward and then start exploiting that. Pretty sure the design of not awarding the consolation prize for out of bounds and scuttling in itself goes against the pirate code. Sailing an enemy out of bounds is a tactic and legit. Scuttling to get away from a spawn camper so you can que up again sooner also a fair enough tactic. But because they knew people would exploit these for quick loses the insured that can't happen which is leading to abuse from skilled players either knowingly or not and meanwhile far worse exploits are happening with pure silence about it from the devs.

    Like all the crying about double gun I have seen on here. I have rarely ever double gunned myself. Only did it year 1 to fight gold skeletons on top of large islands due to lack of firebombs, tridents and other means to kill them quickly. I have run into plenty of people double gunning over the years and not a single time has it ever bothered me or have I complained. I also don't even think the nerf was necessary. While yes double gunning was strong you either figured out how to deal with it or just call that fight a loss. Since I am mostly PvE i always wanted cutlass and pistol though started using eye of reach more since they never added a sensitivity slider for the spyglass.

    I think the only thing PvP wise I had a real complaint about was there not being a unique weapon set for the arena pirate legends Since the entire purple pirate legend set was unlockable in PvE and the final pieces to the entire set were locked behind a long PvP grind which if you disliked PvP and arena was something you just didn't want to do. The fact the achievement was for 100 wins but the weapon unlock was tied to a 240 win commendation instead also seemed wrong because 100 wins was something that I could have seen myself being willing to suffer through. But the fact that 2nd place still meant you were a loser it was 1st place or nothing and 240 times which if you didn't have a good crew could mean 1000 matches at 30+ minute wait times and a 24 minute match thats a potential hour per match that you would likely lose. Hence why so many people are throwing matches in this mode because there isn't even a timer on this to save us just sailing in circles firing at each other till you run out of supplies.

  • Snear 73
    Seafarer
    Insider

    I can agree with the game following the dev's design but nevertheless that is the way that it is right now whether you like it or not... guess we just wait for a potential patch son

  • Mouse N Keybord
    Castaway

    I believe the winner that sails you out only gets a portion of rep vs the full amount. I wouldn't quote me on this but I've had ships sail out on their own I barely got anything for winning. They only hurt themselves.

  • Snear 73
    Seafarer
    Insider

    I would not be suppressed but I can not confirm that either.

  • Badger
    Legend
    Insider
    Moderator

    Please do not insinuate that the devs are okay with this type of thing. This is the sort of clickbait a YouTuber would likely be proud of. (And is, of course, just factually incorrect. Which is also much like a YouTube video's headline a lot of the time.) If you have people acting in such a manner, then please report them so that the issue can be looked in to and handled from the people that actually have a say with what is and is not permissible.

    You can find information on how to report players here.

  • Cmdr Betrayus
    Marauder
    Insider

    @snear-73 sagte in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    Why is this a complaint? If it works then it works and either way spawn camping is a very effective stratgy for PVP.

    It's Not about the spawncamping friend!
    It's about the fact that it can be used by trollers to deny you any Progression while you loose valuable time!
    It is a strategy that works but you still should get smth Out of it for the time you invested... When you lose you still get allignment... When you get sailed Out of bounds you get nothing... Not good

  • D3ADST1CK
    Vanguard
    Insider
    Founder

    @sgt-d-tenders said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    @snear-73 sagte in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    Why is this a complaint? If it works then it works and either way spawn camping is a very effective stratgy for PVP.

    It's Not about the spawncamping friend!
    It's about the fact that it can be used by trollers to deny you any Progression while you loose valuable time!
    It is a strategy that works but you still should get smth Out of it for the time you invested... When you lose you still get allignment... When you get sailed Out of bounds you get nothing... Not good

    The problem is that I don't see how this can be fixed without just enabling constant reputation gain by sailing out of bounds by yourself which will probably create a huge problem of fights against AFK ships skyrocketing.

    If you want to add a check to see if there are enemy players on board when your hourglass breaks, you're changing the problem from players trying to ensure a sink that results in the loser not getting anything as a biproduct to a viable method for trolls to ensure you don't get anything by jumping off the ship before it explodes. It becomes a purposeful action instead of unavoidable, which is probably worse.

  • E3pos
    Master
    Insider

    @aerotsune said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    Please do not insinuate that the devs are okay with this type of thing. This is the sort of clickbait a YouTuber would likely be proud of. (And is, of course, just factually incorrect. Which is also much like a YouTube video's headline a lot of the time.) If you have people acting in such a manner, then please report them so that the issue can be looked in to and handled from the people that actually have a say with what is and is not permissible.

    You can find information on how to report players here.

    Is that a confirmation that this is punishable tactic or not?

  • TheBlackBellamy
    Legend
    Insider

    Easy solution to prevent cheesing rep by scuttling immediately:

    If a crew scuttles or sails into the red after at least one member has been killed by an opposing player, then they are rewarded the XP for a loss.

    If no one has been killed yet, no XP.

  • Lem0n Curry
    Champion
    Insider

    @papatankers2041 said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    @aerotsune said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    Please do not insinuate that the devs are okay with this type of thing. This is the sort of clickbait a YouTuber would likely be proud of. (And is, of course, just factually incorrect. Which is also much like a YouTube video's headline a lot of the time.) If you have people acting in such a manner, then please report them so that the issue can be looked in to and handled from the people that actually have a say with what is and is not permissible.

    You can find information on how to report players here.

    Is that a confirmation that this is punishable tactic or not?

    Which would be strange, taking over the controls of an opponent's ship to sink it, has been in the game from the start. Steering a ship into rocks or an island is sometimes better than lowering the anchor.

    Doing it with the only purpose to deny someone some allegiance for a loss if you could win the match in another way in about the same amount of time, would be in the realm of toxicity, but IMHO harder (if at all) to proof than spawn camping just for spawn camping.

  • E3pos
    Master
    Insider

    @lem0n-curry said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    @papatankers2041 said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    @aerotsune said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    Please do not insinuate that the devs are okay with this type of thing. This is the sort of clickbait a YouTuber would likely be proud of. (And is, of course, just factually incorrect. Which is also much like a YouTube video's headline a lot of the time.) If you have people acting in such a manner, then please report them so that the issue can be looked in to and handled from the people that actually have a say with what is and is not permissible.

    You can find information on how to report players here.

    Is that a confirmation that this is punishable tactic or not?

    Which would be strange, taking over the controls of an opponent's ship to sink it, has been in the game from the start. Steering a ship into rocks or an island is sometimes better than lowering the anchor.

    Doing it with the only purpose to deny someone some allegiance for a loss if you could win the match in another way in about the same amount of time, would be in the realm of toxicity, but IMHO harder (if at all) to proof than spawn camping just for spawn camping.

    Yeah, I mean it's valid tactic inside on the new system and not rare occourance either. Sometimes necessity when you go in as a solo. I have done it to others, others have done it to me. I don't think anyone does it to deny opponents the exp gain. It's to secure wins / save supplies / stop them from resetting.

    If it is punishable, I need to know tho.

  • WyvernKraehe
    Master
    Insider

    @wolfmanbush said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    imo as long as they are attempting to get a sink it doesn't much matter

    Unfortunately it does matter.

    Usually you still get a little bit of reputation if you sink. That way if you lose, you still get some progress for taking part.

    HOWEVER, this is not the case if you sail out of bounds or scuttle your ship. If those happen, then you get marked as deserter and receive no reputation or progress at all.

    This means if players camp your ship and then sail you out of bounds- you don't get anything for having spent time in trying to take part in the fight.

  • WyvernKraehe
    Master
    Insider

    @papatankers2041 said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    Yeah, I mean it's valid tactic inside on the new system and not rare occourance either. Sometimes necessity when you go in as a solo. I have done it to others, others have done it to me. I don't think anyone does it to deny opponents the exp gain. It's to secure wins / save supplies / stop them from resetting.

    Running a ship into an island/rocks/ext would be preferable then to sailing it out of bounds. Any way to get the ship to sink within the bounds of the combat arena so the player can receive at least some credit for having taken part in the fight at all. Also, if you are able to be on a ship long enough to sail it out of bounds, then you should be able to be on it long enough to protect holes and allow it to sink without having to take it all the way to the border of the ring.

  • Lem0n Curry
    Champion
    Insider

    @wyvernkraehe said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    @papatankers2041 said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    Yeah, I mean it's valid tactic inside on the new system and not rare occourance either. Sometimes necessity when you go in as a solo. I have done it to others, others have done it to me. I don't think anyone does it to deny opponents the exp gain. It's to secure wins / save supplies / stop them from resetting.

    Running a ship into an island/rocks/ext would be preferable then to sailing it out of bounds. Any way to get the ship to sink within the bounds of the combat arena so the player can receive at least some credit for having taken part in the fight at all. Also, if you are able to be on a ship long enough to sail it out of bounds, then you should be able to be on it long enough to protect holes and allow it to sink without having to take it all the way to the border of the ring.

    My guess is that most players are more concerned about the winning and their allegiance gain and don't even know about the circumstances when no allegiance is given to the opponent.

  • Blackhawk799
    Ship Mate

    @aerotsune

    I think it's safe to say by pulling a single variable (which is tracked under "kills"- as seen by athena/reaper rep increasing when you kill someone), as long as there's a kill in the match by the other team, put an if statement above the rep gain, or rework it.

    By coding something you're making a statement. If you want to alter that statement, alter your code. I appreciate all the code the devs have made, and this is a great new season. Altering the code isn't a huge concession, and it shouldn't be seen as a personal attack either.

  • WyvernKraehe
    Master
    Insider

    @blackhawk799 Unforeseen results often happen when things are updated and then hit a larger player base. Any consideration of edits to code is unlikely to be seen as any sort of huge concession or personal attack. Those at Rare don't tend to take that sort of thing personally and have edited things before.

    The response was more likely aimed at an earlier comment by Magus104 of "I also know it was Rares intent for people to use the system to troll others" ... which is, rather the assumption to make and very much not the case.

  • Badger
    Legend
    Insider
    Moderator

    @blackhawk799 said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    @aerotsune

    By coding something you're making a statement. If you want to alter that statement, alter your code. I appreciate all the code the devs have made, and this is a great new season. Altering the code isn't a huge concession, and it shouldn't be seen as a personal attack either.

    That's an interesting standpoint to have. However, that's not at all how these things work. Rather, and this is the more likely item, they wanted to put in a method to prevent people who just run and sink themselves for quick and easy gains (no matter how small) can't just cheese the system like that. However. In doing so, it has the unfortunate side effect of having people take advantage of that mechanic and are doing rather despicable things with it. It's not that they are promoting this sort of thing, but simply that it is an unfortunate byproduct.

    And I'm not trying to be rude or target anyone specifically, but it's folks that like to say things like "well they could just" while knowing nothing of the process themselves that are the true problem here. I don't know how to code a game and I doubt most of the people that post those sorts of statements do either. And then there's the item mentioned above. You simply can't prepare for every single outcome. You can make your product and hope that people will use it honorably as intended with a few backups just in case they don't, but ultimately not every situation can have a fail-safe. So now we can only see how they choose to tackle this issue going forward.

  • E3pos
    Master
    Insider

    @wyvernkraehe said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    @papatankers2041 said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    Yeah, I mean it's valid tactic inside on the new system and not rare occourance either. Sometimes necessity when you go in as a solo. I have done it to others, others have done it to me. I don't think anyone does it to deny opponents the exp gain. It's to secure wins / save supplies / stop them from resetting.

    Running a ship into an island/rocks/ext would be preferable then to sailing it out of bounds. Any way to get the ship to sink within the bounds of the combat arena so the player can receive at least some credit for having taken part in the fight at all. Also, if you are able to be on a ship long enough to sail it out of bounds, then you should be able to be on it long enough to protect holes and allow it to sink without having to take it all the way to the border of the ring.

    I am not opposed to people reciving some credit if they loose. Not at all.
    In solos 2 equal naval crews can often stretch out the battle to the point where all the supplies are exhausted. Getting them out of bounds is a final resort usually. Ramming them into a rock or an island is not always an option.

    That being said, I was not even aware of the fact that loosing team will not get any rep that way and I already have quite a good chunk of matches under my belt.

  • Mouse N Keybord
    Castaway

    @papatankers2041 said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    @wyvernkraehe said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    @papatankers2041 said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    Yeah, I mean it's valid tactic inside on the new system and not rare occourance either. Sometimes necessity when you go in as a solo. I have done it to others, others have done it to me. I don't think anyone does it to deny opponents the exp gain. It's to secure wins / save supplies / stop them from resetting.

    Running a ship into an island/rocks/ext would be preferable then to sailing it out of bounds. Any way to get the ship to sink within the bounds of the combat arena so the player can receive at least some credit for having taken part in the fight at all. Also, if you are able to be on a ship long enough to sail it out of bounds, then you should be able to be on it long enough to protect holes and allow it to sink without having to take it all the way to the border of the ring.

    I am not opposed to people reciving some credit if they loose. Not at all.
    In solos 2 equal naval crews can often stretch out the battle to the point where all the supplies are exhausted. Getting them out of bounds is a final resort usually. Ramming them into a rock or an island is not always an option.

    That being said, I was not even aware of the fact that loosing team will not get any rep that way and I already have quite a good chunk of matches under my belt.

    I wish we had raw numbers on rep when they sail out and if the winner gets the full amount or not. I know the loser gets zero rep for going out or if they scuttle. But what's to stop someone from taking on damage/water before going into the Battle? Hitting your self with a keg or just letting them sink you? I get they are trying to avoid an XP farm but there are still ways to just sink and get the rep, which is great.

  • Blackhawk799
    Ship Mate

    @aerotsune said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    @blackhawk799 said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    @aerotsune

    By coding something you're making a statement. If you want to alter that statement, alter your code. I appreciate all the code the devs have made, and this is a great new season. Altering the code isn't a huge concession, and it shouldn't be seen as a personal attack either.

    That's an interesting standpoint to have. However, that's not at all how these things work. Rather, and this is the more likely item, they wanted to put in a method to prevent people who just run and sink themselves for quick and easy gains (no matter how small) can't just cheese the system like that. However. In doing so, it has the unfortunate side effect of having people take advantage of that mechanic and are doing rather despicable things with it. It's not that they are promoting this sort of thing, but simply that it is an unfortunate byproduct.

    And I'm not trying to be rude or target anyone specifically, but it's folks that like to say things like "well they could just" while knowing nothing of the process themselves that are the true problem here. I don't know how to code a game and I doubt most of the people that post those sorts of statements do either. And then there's the item mentioned above. You simply can't prepare for every single outcome. You can make your product and hope that people will use it honorably as intended with a few backups just in case they don't, but ultimately not every situation can have a fail-safe. So now we can only see how they choose to tackle this issue going forward.

    I think thats fair, I'm just saying that there's always a bit of both. I'm a software engineer and I'm held accountable for every line of code I do at work, every input, and every mistake/bug. I'm assuming that's the same for the professional work at Rare. Every code is going to have bugs, every launch is going to have unexpected stuff happen. However, I think that it's what's fixed/not fixed, and how urgently that's done, that shows the 'priority level'. Though, to be fair to developers, you have to basically make sure every single fix is done professionally, or we get some of those mornings where the servers get shut down every 10 minutes because of errors.

    I'm just saying that you have to hold them accountable for what they release, though give them time to fix it as well- which I think is alright to have as an opinion.

  • WyvernKraehe
    Master
    Insider

    @blackhawk799 said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    I'm a software engineer and I'm held accountable for every line of code I do at work, every input, and every mistake/bug. I'm assuming that's the same for the professional work at Rare.

    It is not the same everywhere, and I regret that you are held to such strict standards.

    Bugs and previously unexpected results naturally happen when software is given to a larger community, and several groups that work with software development should and do understand that, then work as a team to fix them without trying to scapegoat guilt a person working in development for the fact that inevitable issues occurred. It's just the nature of development and updates.

    Issues and bugs are -going- to happen. Particularly as updates are used by more users. It sounds very much like rather unfairly trying to set someone up to be the fall guy by demanding more then is realistically possible if expecting everything to be 100% perfect out the gate, and then throwing the blame when naturally things are not when being stress tested and/or given more users. Guilt shaming developers like that sounds awful and a lot like a demand that would come out of management that either has no real understanding of how technology works, or just really wants to have fall guys to blame set on standby. Either way, that sounds absolutely awful and I hope you are able to get a position with a healthier community.

  • Blackhawk799
    Ship Mate

    @wyvernkraehe said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    @blackhawk799 said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    @aerotsune said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    @blackhawk799 said in spawn camping trolls in PvP:

    @aerotsune

    By coding something you're making a statement. If you want to alter that statement, alter your code. I appreciate all the code the devs have made, and this is a great new season. Altering the code isn't a huge concession, and it shouldn't be seen as a personal attack either.

    That's an interesting standpoint to have. However, that's not at all how these things work. Rather, and this is the more likely item, they wanted to put in a method to prevent people who just run and sink themselves for quick and easy gains (no matter how small) can't just cheese the system like that. However. In doing so, it has the unfortunate side effect of having people take advantage of that mechanic and are doing rather despicable things with it. It's not that they are promoting this sort of thing, but simply that it is an unfortunate byproduct.

    And I'm not trying to be rude or target anyone specifically, but it's folks that like to say things like "well they could just" while knowing nothing of the process themselves that are the true problem here. I don't know how to code a game and I doubt most of the people that post those sorts of statements do either. And then there's the item mentioned above. You simply can't prepare for every single outcome. You can make your product and hope that people will use it honorably as intended with a few backups just in case they don't, but ultimately not every situation can have a fail-safe. So now we can only see how they choose to tackle this issue going forward.

    I'm a software engineer and I'm held accountable for every line of code I do at work, every input, and every mistake/bug. I'm assuming that's the same for the professional work at Rare.

    It is not the same everywhere, and I regret that you are held to such strict standards. Bugs previously unexpected results do happen when software is given to a larger community, and several groups that work with software development do understand that, and work as a team to fix them without trying to scapegoat guilt a person working in development for the fact that inevitable issues occurred. It's just the nature of development and updates.

    Issues are -going- to happen as updates are used by more users. It sounds very much like rather unfairly trying to set someone up to be the fall guy by demanding more then is realistically possible if a group expecting everything to be 100% perfect out the gate, and then throwing the blame when naturally things are not and bugs pop out to be fixed when being stress tested and/or given more users. Guilt shaming developers like that sounds awful and a lot like a demand that would come out of management that either has no real understanding of how technology works, or just really wants to have fall guys to blame set on standby.

    I think there's a big difference between being accountable for what you write in code and setting up people to be fall guys. I'm not saying we need a name, or a scapegoat, but that shouldn't be a 'shut up' on players for being like 'this isn't coded right, please fix it'. No one is saying we should curse out devs, or get them fired, or anything major, but when you work professionally, you should try your best to give your best. (which sometimes is still not enough, but that's why you code in groups, instead of solo)

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