Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal

@graiis said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@lotrmith said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@graiis said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@I-Am-Lost-77 @entspeak @AngryCoconut16 @lotrmith
Let me lay out what I feel like was the best idea we've had so far, I feel like we're getting out into the weeds with some wild stuff. It should be easy to implement this, and should preserve the balance of pvpve. Nothing about islands visited or chests found or whatever. You just get a flat percent of your level when the voyage complete fanfare pops as long as the voyage is appropriate level. If you are lower, you get the same flat percent (which is less since lower levels are less total rep obviously) . If you are higher level you get the same as if you were the same level (ie if 10 percent happens to be 1000 rep at level 25, but at 45 10 percent is 20000, you get 1000) I feel like that's all it would really take. Rare can put in the reward at any value, start low, and tweak it if people are doing too much of one thing. The whole point is to encourage voyage completion and even out the reward between many item and few item quests. It has the side effect of helping a bit for people upset about losing everything but doesn't remove or alter the value of world items. It gets people out finishing long voyages, thus boosting PvP experience. I think there's not much either side can complain about with this change

Problem there is that you further incentivize PvE by adding rewards without an equivalent incentive/reward for PvP.

Two issues seem to be conflated here. The first is the ides that you could be sunk before turning in any of your loot, the solution to which, in the dev's own words, lies in understanding that the loot and all it stands for (rep/gold/timeinvested) is not yours until you turn it in. You have the option to fight back, run, or visit outposts more frequently.

The other issue is that players have no incentive to finish the whole voyage, which doesn't seem to fit into the theme of this thread but to which I propose the following: Have a bonus upon complete voyage but only when handing back in the voyage page to the faction representative at an outpost. Your voyage progress is tracked on the page, and if you get 100% complete and turn it in, you get a nice bonus. However, if (and only if) your ship sinks, your quest page becomes a floating message in a bottle just like any treasure you had on board. You must recover it to continue or risk losing it, and thus your progress, to a thief. If a thief sinks you and steals a 100% complete voyage page, all he has to do it turn it in and he gets the bonus. If it is partially complete he has the option to finish it out and gain the bonus. Thus PvE and PvP only get a bonus upon turning in, and nobody is given an opportunity for a bonus thag the other cannot steal.

That is actually really interesting! The only annoying thing is that you'd have to go back for every voyage, which already makes merchants alliance annoying.

After thinking about it more it would be easier to implement pretty much the exact way Legendary Voyages work. After completing all pieces of your voyage, you get a final chapter that sends you to dig up a special piece of loot that is a physical representation of your bonus. This special piece of loot is specific to the rep for whom the voyage was given (ie: a chest for GH, a skull for OoS, some special trade good for Merchant) and acts like any other piece of loot... an Athena Chest, a Stronghold Skull, whatever. You get the rep/gold for turning it in. Other players can intercept you before you turn in, and they can claim your reward (just like could potentially be done with Athena Chests now).

This solves the issue of losing your quest if you sink with my previous idea.

@angrycoconut16

https://www.seaofthieves.com/forum/topic/50676/give-us-our-xp-for-finishing-a-voyage-not-turning-in-the-chest-soul-animal/1202

I apologize if you felt that 9 sentence post was too much for you. But, the question remains.

@pumpkinkangaroo said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@savagetwinky It is so cute how you broke my post into little bits to try and argue my point of view being wrong. It's my point of view and I have never once said yours is wrong as it's yours.

You don't like how I play the game or how I value my time? Ok.

*Side note: I've never been angry while playing.

Ok I guess you don't know how discussions work...

This has nothing to do with PvPers vs PvErs. It's just how one measures whether or not their time was well spent. I measure it by whether or not I enjoyed the time... since it's a video game and primarily entertainment. You are measuring your time on productivity, as you have nothing to bring to your next game when losing a chest, it's now a waste of time.

Here's a tip, failing is part of the fun in this game. The progression system is completely superfluous in the grand scheme of things. It literally adds nothing of value to the gameplay mechanics nor the unlocks any new story/progress areas. The loot is a McGuffin for players to fight over. You are playing a game designed around stealing value from other players if you view your effort gaining chests independent of PvP opportunities you are fundamentally wrong.

Your entire post reeks of entitlement because you spent 15 mins getting chests in a pirate game where you're not entitled to the value until you deliver those chests to an outpost... you may not be "upset" but you show clear contempt to players playing the game the way they are allowed to, and your unwillingness to partake in the game because you don't want to lose your chests is bad sportsmanship. So scurry into the red sea and lose all your time instead of.. defending your ship or outwitting other players which are a huge component of the game.

@graiis said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

People cancel riddles because you only get one chest after a period of wandering around, and you don't seem to get better chests any more than c**p chests. Why is being as efficient as possible with this system increasing risk?

Ah, right... I originally asked that question before I fully understood your position (and it being different from the myriad other suggestions). Reading it again with what you've said now, it makes sense. You weren't talking about risk, you were talking about completing the voyage. Fair enough.

But, I think that the solution is to have more varied types of loot and tie the value to the difficulty. And, to have more valuable loot as you level up (even if it's only an increase in gold value). This way the notion of increasing Reputation with a faction makes sense in people's minds. People should feel like their effort is being rewarded... or at least has the potential for reward. But the combination of c****y loot and losing that c****y loot when you've spent significant time and effort gathering it... this is too much. Insult to injury, as it were. Fix the first and you will have less of an issue with the second, in my opinion.

And here's the argument that it is necessary. Lots of people are unhappy with the experience for various reasons. That's all the reason they need to change it.

Not necessarily. The devs have to consider the type of game they are developing, whether the change alters gameplay in a way they don't want, if it's technically feasible, and, despite what @AngryCoconut16 believes, how the change impacts the rest of the game.

Bad design should be fixed, but I don't think the manner in which Reputation and Gold are rewarded is bad in and of itself... it does a very good job of setting the tone the devs want. It's the trappings around it that are the problem.

@kondrites Oh, I’ve been there - I’m currently at 35 in Merchants. But, that also may be why Merchant voyages are worth significantly more than the others factions and why you have days to complete them.

But, this thread is about the other two factions.

@entspeak said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

The devs have to consider the type of game they are developing, whether the change alters gameplay in a way they don't want, if it's technically feasible, and, despite what @AngryCoconut16 believes, how the change impacts the rest of the game.

Bad design should be fixed, but I don't think the manner in which Reputation and Gold are rewarded is bad in and of itself... it does a very good job of setting the tone the devs want. It's the trappings around it that are the problem.

Truth.

@touchdown1504 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@angrycoconut16 To be clear, how XP is awarded, as in the form is really not what concerns me. When, is what concerns me. The timing as it stands now has one moment at which XP can be rewarded. The point at which a voyage "truly" ends, upon the redemption of items. This naturally excludes the tiny amount received from Commendations. However, a closer examination of commendations shows (that for the most part) this is an existing bonus for further handing in more items! Truthfully, it is a redundancy on the existing system.

So, to put my thoughts in a more bare bones proposition...the rewarding of XP should be done upon the accomplishment of sub-tasks involved in a voyage. Therefore, changing the timing of the rewards and allowing a more fulfilling gaming experience, that lends itself to consistent progression toward the "finish line". In other words, if an individual is actively engaged with the game's content, they should never logout without receiving XP that progresses them toward Legend status.

Simply put, the timing of rewards is my chief concern.

You can do this already by visiting outposts to turn in your loot island by island rather than waiting until your whole voyage is finished. It is your choice to increase efficiency by stocking up on loot from many or all islands in a voyage before turning in. But, you're taking an increased risk, and that is your choice. Coincidentally, how efficient does it turn out to be if you are sunk and get nothing?

I'm certainly not going to read through every comment on this Thread, so my apologies if I basically say what has already been said.

My personal opinion on this subject would be that you gain extra Rep [not Gold], if you complete a Voyage, and hand in all acquired items. This would make it more appealing for Players to finish the entire Voyage, rather than picking and choosing only the good [or close] ones.

I personally prefer to play this Game for the Voyages and adventure, and that means actually going on a Voyage, not half doing something because it's "easier" to do.

The bonus of this would be that your Items become more valuable, and there-for, comes with more Risk, which is what this Game needs badly. If you're said items get stolen, then there goes your bonus Rep.

My thoughts anyway.

It would make sense to reward after completing a voyage. And stop all the cancellations after just getting the good stuff. If there is a reward for actually completing it entirely instead of cash in the gold chicken and ditch the rest,for example.

@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
How long the fight takes is irrelevant. I don't understand what you are not understanding? Let me simplify it for you, ignore my previous example. You have loot. It gets stolen. The loss is currently far greater than it needs to be. This loss deflates the player and discourages PvP for a huge number of people. That is the issue we are trying to solve.

Obviously you could potentially go Island to outpost to island to outpost to island to outpost to island to outpost and I understand how the system works but forcing players to spend time always sailing back to the outpost with ONE voyage worth of loot is not healthy either. The game shouldn't make people this scared to take risks, risks should be up for a player to decide but at the moment so many people are SCARED of taking risks (for instance, engaging an enemy ship with loot on board the ship; going to more than one island for a voyage) as the loss is simply too great! This change would encourage people to take risks, which is going to encourage healthy PvP. Forcing people to run to an outpost, and then making players feel like their only real option is to flee if they see an enemy player but want to progress is harming the game.

We all understand how the game works, and the outpost solution, but we all believe this would be a far better system/solution which could easily work alongside outposts.... We are not saying the current system isn't usable but wouldn't you rather the game entailed a more enjoyable PvP experience for everyone?

It absolutely is relevant. You gave that example when talking about players logging out having gained nothing at all for their entire play session. The counter argument made was that the game already has a mechanic to address that - the devs have placed “the right number of outposts around the world so you've got the choice.” And given that “a ship isn't just going to come out of nowhere unless you've let it come out of nowhere,” how the fight began and how long it takes is relevant to your claim that in an entire session a player has lost everything to PvP loss.

I’m not saying you have to go island to outpost, island to outpost every time. I don’t do that, so that extreme choice is unnecessary. Last night I did an entire voyage without hitting an outpost because the two outposts near me (Dagger Tooth and Galleon’s Grace) had players at or near them and it was all castaways and seafarers - six islands in that voyage. But, if I lost all that, I still would’ve had an hour left in my 2 hour play session - and, losing all of it would’ve been my fault... not a fault in the game design. The only time I go from 1 island to an outpost is if I end up with a lot of high value loot from that 1 island. If I’d had Captain’s chests, I would’ve headed south to Aspire to drop them off before hitting the last three islands in the voyage. But it’s about risk assessment, choice, and strategy. There is a solution to the problem you were talking about in giving that example.

@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

despite what @AngryCoconut16 believes, how the change impacts the rest of the game.

Please don't twist my words. I'm the one trying to state the impact this will also have in PvP, and also trying to minimise the impact this would have on loot value. I am thinking about the impact this would have, but by all means, if I've missed anything, let me know.

I am not twisting your words. When bringing up the effect this idea will have on PvP players, you have said that this idea is only to address PvE player issues and that PvP players can start their own thread. That’s not how this works. There is no guarantee that other thread ideas will be adopted. That being the case, how this idea impacts the rest of the game needs to be addressed. The devs are not going to just implement this idea on its own without considering how it impacts the rest of the game.

@touchdown1504 It is not derailing the topic to discuss how this idea will impact other aspects of the game... it just isn’t.

@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

Right. So in other words the only way players can mitigate loss is if they have ALREADY secured some loot and handed it in at an outpost. Wow. Very helpful. So if I log on have a couple of hours to kill, and I am engaged by an enemy, but haven't had a chance to hand in at an outpost, I am forced to make a decision, do I attack with cannons and risk losing everything? Or do I just run which means a better chance of me not walking away with nothing? Hmm. I wonder which option I will take....

This example raises a lot of questions. You have a couple of hours to play. How long does the fight take? Is the end of the fight the end of your play session? Were you on your first island and it took 1 hour and 45 minutes to get whatever loot was there? That's what I genuinely don't understand... how does this particular scenario happen?

edited to address the first statement, above: Yes... that's what the outposts are for, that's why the devs put in a lot of them and spread them fairly evenly around the map. They are save stations or checkpoints of a sort. All games with save stations and checkpoints work this way - you die, you are reset to where you were the last time you saved.

How long the fight takes is irrelevant. I don't understand what you are not understanding? Let me simplify it for you, ignore my previous example. You have loot. It gets stolen. The loss is currently far greater than it needs to be.

The devs disagree.

@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@nquarter This would make the problem worse. The items are already holding 100% of the value, that's the issue which is creating hostility and negativity, as well as making players feel they have no choice but to run even if they WANT to engage in PvP - because if it goes seriously bad they have suddenly lost all of their progress/gold for that session, in the blink of an eye. That is not fun for anyone. I think it's very feasible to keep the value of the loot (it needs to be valuable to keep that element of risk and paranoia on the seas) but also award some progression earlier in the voyage.

At the moment we are discussing awarding progression on 'voyage complete'. The OP wants 100% but I think this is far too much, what most of us are discussing at the moment is leaving the loot rewards the same, but having some form of additional bonus rep when the 'voyage complete' sign comes up (i.e. when you have dug up your last chest or killed your last skeleton etc). The bonus needs to be big enough to have an impact, but obviously not so big that it is less of a priority for a player to defend their loot, which is core to the game.

I have to completely disagree. I don't think a Reward should be given, when you haven't actually "finished" a Voyage by handing in the items you were sent to retrieve. It kind of contradicts the purpose of the Voyage... well what vague purpose they implemented within their Story anyway.

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with Risking a Reward for Success. It is much more rewarding [not talking about Rep, or Gold], but a sense of accomplishment of actually making it to the end without losing a single piece of Item, whether that be by running, or by standing your ground and fighting back.

Some people already run when they have Loot on board, and some fight back. This will not change regardless of if we get Rep for Completing a Voyage, or handing in a Voyage. It will still be the same, but there will just be that added "Risk" aspect to be able to receive something a little extra at the end by handing in the Items.

I play Solo quite a bit, because I enjoy that Risk of dealing with Duo Sloops, or Galleon's, and coming out on top. Yes sometimes I don't, and I do lose everything, but hey, that's just the nature of the Game. I just shrug it off and start another Voyage.

I think giving free Rep before the Items were handed in, would create another form for the Community to purely grind for Rep. They will do full Voyages, yet care not if they lose their Items, because the Risk of their Reward will be completely washed out to Sea... so to speak.

They would have a sense of carelessness, because they are given what they desire, which is Rep, surprising enough, is what the Progression in SoT is all about.

The Game needs to make ways to allow players to WANT to play the Game correctly, by doing Voyages, succeeding in the Voyages, and earning their Rewards and Bonus afterwards. This will be the incentive Players need.