All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...

@riareth said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

The argument is there is no real benefit in separating players any more... and there is a massive benefit to having more players playing with each other. Separating them when its absolutely necessary only on the aspect that needs to be separate.

Agreed it should optionally separate only on what creates a non level playing field , or as close as possible. Which is mostly the gamepad vs k/m.

If Rate did that, and the real cheaters keep getting banned, then as an Xbox player I'll be happy. And if they cut down on bunny hopping I'll be happier ;-)

On my 3 months playing the game I think I've only encounters real cheaters a couple of time (aim bot shooting at ridiculous distances and behind objects)

maybe you really have to be sure though, I've got some insane shots of, long range m/kb has a real advantage... this is the only reason I'm ok with separating control schemes. I've sniped people jumping off their boat with a keg and sword dashed over and started killing the people repairing.

m/kb big advantage isn't turn speed. Its having the best of both worlds, high precision long range, speed in short range. You can increase joystick sensitivity but you usually have to give up long range for short range because you'll lose precision or give up speed in short range to be able to have precision long range. Long range is much more situation though.

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky I'm going to make another dig here, by clarifying.

The solution IS perfect for all xbox users. I understand that it's not as ideal for a PC user who wants to play WITH xbox users.

No its not.. as an xbox user... I would like to play with my PC friends that use controllers. A better solution is to allow us to match make with.. controller only players. PC players would be more likely to use controllers if they had a pool of controller only players to play with... And I could point out.. while I'm on my xbox.. that we won't be at a disadvantage using controllers.

Also an option I would like to see... is kb/m supported by xbox version of SoT... so my xbox friends can join us when we are all playing with kb/m... and if we feel we have an advantage using kb/m play with kb/m only players.

Again the assumption being the separation is necessary.

There really is no argument to force someone from one platform to play with another. Options, yes. Forcing, no. If your argument is 'I need players from that other platform to improve my enjoyment of the game' ....well, maybe you bought the wrong platform? Could it really be that simple?

The argument is there is no real benefit in separating players any more... and there is a massive benefit to having more players playing with each other. Separating them when its absolutely necessary only on the aspect that needs to be separate.

That is an argument.. its a valid argument.. As I've pointed out your arguments for separation are basically outdated I don't think you have any real foundation for disabling crossplay other than its a known but an indirect solution for separating control schemes. Only some games need that separation.

I don't understand. You would have those same options with optional cross play. You can play with your PC friend using a controller, or you can play with your PC friend using a m k/b, all while being on the xbox. If xbox releases m k/b support the same would continue to be true. The choice of course will always be up to you. What would be lost by allowing others to opt out? Other than potentially loosing a large portion of controller players, but as you said many times, that doesn't impact you in the least (right?)

if there is a problem with disparity with controller vs keyboard... than the point of any separation would solve that issue while letting me play with any one on any platform.. Yes?

Cross play explicitly doesn't do that. Its a non solution for a player that wants to play with someone on a different platform and either wants to stick to a control limitation, or play with a mix...

And again, the control scheme is not the only issue of disparity. There are other inherent hardware issues that will also be greater between PC and xbox, as well as the significantly higher percentage of cheaters found on PC. These are things that players should also be able to opt out of. I see no reason to say otherwise,

Its not the only issue of disparity but its the only one that currently matters, and is the only one that is exclusive to xbox... xbox can't use kb/m (except for xim so its not even really exclusive but w/e)...

xbox has disparities between xbox platform
xbox has disparities between external inputs
xbox has disparities between external accessories (my load times are awesome on an ssd on xbox...)

So all your reasons for wanting to disable crossplay... will not solve the problems you are stating.

Cheaters need to be banned. There is no other solution to cheaters. Everyone benefits from that solution.

all so PC users can have 'more' controller users to play against.

Your clearly ignoring my argument. As an xbox user... if there is a need to be separated I see know reason to exclude my PC friends from playing with on that point of separation to solve a problem with interface advantages... if we all are using controllers we should be able to play together. There is no reason to solve the interface advantage by not matching on interface.

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky I'm going to make another dig here, by clarifying.

The solution IS perfect for all xbox users. I understand that it's not as ideal for a PC user who wants to play WITH xbox users.

No its not.. as an xbox user... I would like to play with my PC friends that use controllers. A better solution is to allow us to match make with.. controller only players. PC players would be more likely to use controllers if they had a pool of controller only players to play with... And I could point out.. while I'm on my xbox.. that we won't be at a disadvantage using controllers.

Also an option I would like to see... is kb/m supported by xbox version of SoT... so my xbox friends can join us when we are all playing with kb/m... and if we feel we have an advantage using kb/m play with kb/m only players.

Again the assumption being the separation is necessary.

There really is no argument to force someone from one platform to play with another. Options, yes. Forcing, no. If your argument is 'I need players from that other platform to improve my enjoyment of the game' ....well, maybe you bought the wrong platform? Could it really be that simple?

The argument is there is no real benefit in separating players any more... and there is a massive benefit to having more players playing with each other. Separating them when its absolutely necessary only on the aspect that needs to be separate.

That is an argument.. its a valid argument.. As I've pointed out your arguments for separation are basically outdated I don't think you have any real foundation for disabling crossplay other than its a known but an indirect solution for separating control schemes. Only some games need that separation.

I don't understand. You would have those same options with optional cross play. You can play with your PC friend using a controller, or you can play with your PC friend using a m k/b, all while being on the xbox. If xbox releases m k/b support the same would continue to be true. The choice of course will always be up to you. What would be lost by allowing others to opt out? Other than potentially loosing a large portion of controller players, but as you said many times, that doesn't impact you in the least (right?)

if there is a problem with disparity with controller vs keyboard... than the point of any separation would solve that issue while letting me play with any one on any platform.. Yes?

Cross play explicitly doesn't do that. Its a non solution for a player that wants to play with someone on a different platform and either wants to stick to a control limitation, or play with a mix...

And again, the control scheme is not the only issue of disparity. There are other inherent hardware issues that will also be greater between PC and xbox, as well as the significantly higher percentage of cheaters found on PC. These are things that players should also be able to opt out of. I see no reason to say otherwise,

Its not the only issue of disparity but its the only one that currently matters, and is the only one that is exclusive to xbox... xbox can't use kb/m (except for xim so its not even really exclusive but w/e)...

xbox has disparities between xbox platform
xbox has disparities between external inputs
xbox has disparities between external accessories (my load times are awesome on an ssd on xbox...)

So all your reasons for wanting to disable crossplay... will not solve the problems you are stating.

Cheaters need to be banned. There is no other solution to cheaters. Everyone benefits from that solution.

all so PC users can have 'more' controller users to play against.

Your clearly ignoring my argument. As an xbox user... if there is a need to be separated I see know reason to exclude my PC friends from playing with on that point of separation to solve a problem with interface advantages... if we all are using controllers we should be able to play together. There is no reason to solve the interface advantage by not matching on interface.

No, you are ignoring my argument, as well as actual facts. Having cross play as optional would NOT exclude your PC friends from playing with you. That's what optional means. You, as an xbox user, check a box that says 'yes, let me play with my PC friends.' Make sense?

I'm not ingoring you... if the solution to input differences is disabling cross play... how does that solve the problem for either platform to have that solution and still be able to play with each other.

Again the choice you seem to be missing is fix the disparity in control scheme OR play cross platform with friends on different platforms... Its a bad choice. The rest of the arguments for disabling crossplay are outdated.

With that in mind, who exactly is impacted negatively by optional cross play? Who is not 'allowed' to play together?

Me. My friends. People who want to play together... and have a solution for the actual problem of control scheme differences.... and not have an arbitrary point of separation that between the two.

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky I'm going to make another dig here, by clarifying.

The solution IS perfect for all xbox users. I understand that it's not as ideal for a PC user who wants to play WITH xbox users.

No its not.. as an xbox user... I would like to play with my PC friends that use controllers. A better solution is to allow us to match make with.. controller only players. PC players would be more likely to use controllers if they had a pool of controller only players to play with... And I could point out.. while I'm on my xbox.. that we won't be at a disadvantage using controllers.

Also an option I would like to see... is kb/m supported by xbox version of SoT... so my xbox friends can join us when we are all playing with kb/m... and if we feel we have an advantage using kb/m play with kb/m only players.

Again the assumption being the separation is necessary.

There really is no argument to force someone from one platform to play with another. Options, yes. Forcing, no. If your argument is 'I need players from that other platform to improve my enjoyment of the game' ....well, maybe you bought the wrong platform? Could it really be that simple?

The argument is there is no real benefit in separating players any more... and there is a massive benefit to having more players playing with each other. Separating them when its absolutely necessary only on the aspect that needs to be separate.

That is an argument.. its a valid argument.. As I've pointed out your arguments for separation are basically outdated I don't think you have any real foundation for disabling crossplay other than its a known but an indirect solution for separating control schemes. Only some games need that separation.

I don't understand. You would have those same options with optional cross play. You can play with your PC friend using a controller, or you can play with your PC friend using a m k/b, all while being on the xbox. If xbox releases m k/b support the same would continue to be true. The choice of course will always be up to you. What would be lost by allowing others to opt out? Other than potentially loosing a large portion of controller players, but as you said many times, that doesn't impact you in the least (right?)

if there is a problem with disparity with controller vs keyboard... than the point of any separation would solve that issue while letting me play with any one on any platform.. Yes?

Cross play explicitly doesn't do that. Its a non solution for a player that wants to play with someone on a different platform and either wants to stick to a control limitation, or play with a mix...

And again, the control scheme is not the only issue of disparity. There are other inherent hardware issues that will also be greater between PC and xbox, as well as the significantly higher percentage of cheaters found on PC. These are things that players should also be able to opt out of. I see no reason to say otherwise,

Its not the only issue of disparity but its the only one that currently matters, and is the only one that is exclusive to xbox... xbox can't use kb/m (except for xim so its not even really exclusive but w/e)...

xbox has disparities between xbox platform
xbox has disparities between external inputs
xbox has disparities between external accessories (my load times are awesome on an ssd on xbox...)

So all your reasons for wanting to disable crossplay... will not solve the problems you are stating.

Cheaters need to be banned. There is no other solution to cheaters. Everyone benefits from that solution.

all so PC users can have 'more' controller users to play against.

Your clearly ignoring my argument. As an xbox user... if there is a need to be separated I see know reason to exclude my PC friends from playing with on that point of separation to solve a problem with interface advantages... if we all are using controllers we should be able to play together. There is no reason to solve the interface advantage by not matching on interface.

No, you are ignoring my argument, as well as actual facts. Having cross play as optional would NOT exclude your PC friends from playing with you. That's what optional means. You, as an xbox user, check a box that says 'yes, let me play with my PC friends.' Make sense?

I'm not ingoring you... if the solution to input differences is disabling cross play... how does that solve the problem for either platform to have that solution and still be able to play with each other.

Again the choice you seem to be missing is fix the disparity in control scheme OR play cross platform with friends on different platforms... Its a bad choice. The rest of the arguments for disabling crossplay are outdated.

With that in mind, who exactly is impacted negatively by optional cross play? Who is not 'allowed' to play together?

Me. My friends. People who want to play together... and have a solution for the actual problem of control scheme differences.... and not have an arbitrary point of separation that between the two.

It doesn't, see my latest post. There are definitely still those that would be impacted. But again, only if you insist on playing cross platform, while also LIMITING controller scheme to one type. And to be honest, both options are probably coming, at least in other games. I think every xbox game that offers m k/b support is going to offer separate and mixed servers. Cross play is the real question, and as long as there are significant hardware differences and a higher percentage of cheaters on PC, you're always going to have Xbox users against forced cross play. So imho, cross play will continue to be optional in most games. Want an actual solution? Make PC games run on 'fixed' settings, and step up anti-cheat. Once you do both of those things then, and only then, should we be arguing for 'forced' crossplay.

there are hardware differences for xbox, why should those be cross play? The point your making doesn't matter. The option is a bad option long term. And with xbox seemingly making sure everything is "foward" compatible from here on now means that disparity will just grow with xbox... not to mention xbox players have option for keyboard mouse TODAY... if its officially supported it just means that xbox players will have proper support and devs can separate out that preference.. but they'll need large pools of kb/m players to play with their preference... wonder where they'll get that from.

Forget about the potential for windows to make licensed "steam machines" based on windows 10... which xbox basically is. Which... rumors say this is likely..

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane I'll go ahead an answer my own question for you, but it will just bring us full circle. The ONLY people negatively impacted by optional cross-play, are PC users....specifically, PC users who prefer a controller, want to play with xbox friends, and want to ensure that only other people with a controller are allowed on the server. And while I have sympathy for you, what you're trying to do is force me to play with PC users, which comes with a higher percentage of cheaters, and greater hardware disparity. And despite what you claim, that disparity is FAR greater on PC than on console. We can debate that point further if you want to compare the range between 'minimum' specs and settings on a PC vs. Ultra. Then you can show me the rough equivalent on xbox, since you seem to think they're similar.

Or xbox... xbox users are also affected negatively by it, which I explained. Nor does it solve the hardware disparity since there are two large differences in performance between xbox/ xbox x... not to mention other things like disk speed can be an improved by ssd on either xbox..

so it doesn't solve the problem... but limits the pool of controller only players to xbox only, so xbox and pc players that want to play together in a controller only match are negatively affected... And it doesn't actually solve the the problem for xbox players since they still face others using XIM... and won't be effective if kb/m support comes for xbox players...

cheaters are so rare that I don't see the point in seperating the other 99.9999% of players to solve a .00001% problem

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky I'm going to make another dig here, by clarifying.

The solution IS perfect for all xbox users. I understand that it's not as ideal for a PC user who wants to play WITH xbox users.

No its not.. as an xbox user... I would like to play with my PC friends that use controllers. A better solution is to allow us to match make with.. controller only players. PC players would be more likely to use controllers if they had a pool of controller only players to play with... And I could point out.. while I'm on my xbox.. that we won't be at a disadvantage using controllers.

Also an option I would like to see... is kb/m supported by xbox version of SoT... so my xbox friends can join us when we are all playing with kb/m... and if we feel we have an advantage using kb/m play with kb/m only players.

Again the assumption being the separation is necessary.

There really is no argument to force someone from one platform to play with another. Options, yes. Forcing, no. If your argument is 'I need players from that other platform to improve my enjoyment of the game' ....well, maybe you bought the wrong platform? Could it really be that simple?

The argument is there is no real benefit in separating players any more... and there is a massive benefit to having more players playing with each other. Separating them when its absolutely necessary only on the aspect that needs to be separate.

That is an argument.. its a valid argument.. As I've pointed out your arguments for separation are basically outdated I don't think you have any real foundation for disabling crossplay other than its a known but an indirect solution for separating control schemes. Only some games need that separation.

I don't understand. You would have those same options with optional cross play. You can play with your PC friend using a controller, or you can play with your PC friend using a m k/b, all while being on the xbox. If xbox releases m k/b support the same would continue to be true. The choice of course will always be up to you. What would be lost by allowing others to opt out? Other than potentially loosing a large portion of controller players, but as you said many times, that doesn't impact you in the least (right?)

if there is a problem with disparity with controller vs keyboard... than the point of any separation would solve that issue while letting me play with any one on any platform.. Yes?

Cross play explicitly doesn't do that. Its a non solution for a player that wants to play with someone on a different platform and either wants to stick to a control limitation, or play with a mix...

And again, the control scheme is not the only issue of disparity. There are other inherent hardware issues that will also be greater between PC and xbox, as well as the significantly higher percentage of cheaters found on PC. These are things that players should also be able to opt out of. I see no reason to say otherwise,

Its not the only issue of disparity but its the only one that currently matters, and is the only one that is exclusive to xbox... xbox can't use kb/m (except for xim so its not even really exclusive but w/e)...

xbox has disparities between xbox platform
xbox has disparities between external inputs
xbox has disparities between external accessories (my load times are awesome on an ssd on xbox...)

So all your reasons for wanting to disable crossplay... will not solve the problems you are stating.

Cheaters need to be banned. There is no other solution to cheaters. Everyone benefits from that solution.

all so PC users can have 'more' controller users to play against.

Your clearly ignoring my argument. As an xbox user... if there is a need to be separated I see know reason to exclude my PC friends from playing with on that point of separation to solve a problem with interface advantages... if we all are using controllers we should be able to play together. There is no reason to solve the interface advantage by not matching on interface.

No, you are ignoring my argument, as well as actual facts. Having cross play as optional would NOT exclude your PC friends from playing with you. That's what optional means. You, as an xbox user, check a box that says 'yes, let me play with my PC friends.' Make sense?

I'm not ingoring you... if the solution to input differences is disabling cross play... how does that solve the problem for either platform to have that solution and still be able to play with each other.

Again the choice you seem to be missing is fix the disparity in control scheme OR play cross platform with friends on different platforms... Its a bad choice. The rest of the arguments for disabling crossplay are outdated.

With that in mind, who exactly is impacted negatively by optional cross play? Who is not 'allowed' to play together?

Me. My friends. People who want to play together... and have a solution for the actual problem of control scheme differences.... and not have an arbitrary point of separation that between the two.

It doesn't, see my latest post. There are definitely still those that would be impacted. But again, only if you insist on playing cross platform, while also LIMITING controller scheme to one type. And to be honest, both options are probably coming, at least in other games. I think every xbox game that offers m k/b support is going to offer separate and mixed servers. Cross play is the real question, and as long as there are significant hardware differences and a higher percentage of cheaters on PC, you're always going to have Xbox users against forced cross play. So imho, cross play will continue to be optional in most games. Want an actual solution? Make PC games run on 'fixed' settings, and step up anti-cheat. Once you do both of those things then, and only then, should we be arguing for 'forced' crossplay.

there are hardware differences for xbox, why should those be cross play? The point your making doesn't matter. The option is a bad option long term. And with xbox seemingly making sure everything is "foward" compatible from here on now means that disparity will just grow with xbox... not to mention xbox players have option for keyboard mouse TODAY... if its officially supported it just means that xbox players will have proper support and devs can separate out that preference.. but they'll need large pools of kb/m players to play with their preference... wonder where they'll get that from.

Forget about the potential for windows to make licensed "steam machines" based on windows 10... which xbox basically is.

I'm sorry, but I remain unconvinced, and unfortunately I'm out of time. I'm all for options, so sure, let games create separation based on control scheme if they want. But I'll also continue to demand separation from PC based on my lifelong experience with cheating in multiplayer games on that platform.

If the argument against optional cross play is that it will 'unnecessarily create MORE separation' among the player base, maybe realize that some of us will refuse to play a game with forced cross play at all. So instead of splitting the player base into groups, you simply alienate an entire portion from the onset. I obviously can't claim which option is more conducive to a game's overall longevity, so I guess SoT will act as an interesting litmus test.

you may be unconvinced but your problems are factually unsolved by disabling cross play for the most part. The one exception is more cheaters but I still fail to see the point of the optional cross play when the vast majority of players don't cheat and likely you'll never see one.

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky I'm going to make another dig here, by clarifying.

The solution IS perfect for all xbox users. I understand that it's not as ideal for a PC user who wants to play WITH xbox users.

No its not.. as an xbox user... I would like to play with my PC friends that use controllers. A better solution is to allow us to match make with.. controller only players. PC players would be more likely to use controllers if they had a pool of controller only players to play with... And I could point out.. while I'm on my xbox.. that we won't be at a disadvantage using controllers.

Also an option I would like to see... is kb/m supported by xbox version of SoT... so my xbox friends can join us when we are all playing with kb/m... and if we feel we have an advantage using kb/m play with kb/m only players.

Again the assumption being the separation is necessary.

There really is no argument to force someone from one platform to play with another. Options, yes. Forcing, no. If your argument is 'I need players from that other platform to improve my enjoyment of the game' ....well, maybe you bought the wrong platform? Could it really be that simple?

The argument is there is no real benefit in separating players any more... and there is a massive benefit to having more players playing with each other. Separating them when its absolutely necessary only on the aspect that needs to be separate.

That is an argument.. its a valid argument.. As I've pointed out your arguments for separation are basically outdated I don't think you have any real foundation for disabling crossplay other than its a known but an indirect solution for separating control schemes. Only some games need that separation.

I don't understand. You would have those same options with optional cross play. You can play with your PC friend using a controller, or you can play with your PC friend using a m k/b, all while being on the xbox. If xbox releases m k/b support the same would continue to be true. The choice of course will always be up to you. What would be lost by allowing others to opt out? Other than potentially loosing a large portion of controller players, but as you said many times, that doesn't impact you in the least (right?)

if there is a problem with disparity with controller vs keyboard... than the point of any separation would solve that issue while letting me play with any one on any platform.. Yes?

Cross play explicitly doesn't do that. Its a non solution for a player that wants to play with someone on a different platform and either wants to stick to a control limitation, or play with a mix...

And again, the control scheme is not the only issue of disparity. There are other inherent hardware issues that will also be greater between PC and xbox, as well as the significantly higher percentage of cheaters found on PC. These are things that players should also be able to opt out of. I see no reason to say otherwise,

Its not the only issue of disparity but its the only one that currently matters, and is the only one that is exclusive to xbox... xbox can't use kb/m (except for xim so its not even really exclusive but w/e)...

xbox has disparities between xbox platform
xbox has disparities between external inputs
xbox has disparities between external accessories (my load times are awesome on an ssd on xbox...)

So all your reasons for wanting to disable crossplay... will not solve the problems you are stating.

Cheaters need to be banned. There is no other solution to cheaters. Everyone benefits from that solution.

all so PC users can have 'more' controller users to play against.

Your clearly ignoring my argument. As an xbox user... if there is a need to be separated I see know reason to exclude my PC friends from playing with on that point of separation to solve a problem with interface advantages... if we all are using controllers we should be able to play together. There is no reason to solve the interface advantage by not matching on interface.

No, you are ignoring my argument, as well as actual facts. Having cross play as optional would NOT exclude your PC friends from playing with you. That's what optional means. You, as an xbox user, check a box that says 'yes, let me play with my PC friends.' Make sense?

I'm not ingoring you... if the solution to input differences is disabling cross play... how does that solve the problem for either platform to have that solution and still be able to play with each other.

Again the choice you seem to be missing is fix the disparity in control scheme OR play cross platform with friends on different platforms... Its a bad choice. The rest of the arguments for disabling crossplay are outdated.

With that in mind, who exactly is impacted negatively by optional cross play? Who is not 'allowed' to play together?

Me. My friends. People who want to play together... and have a solution for the actual problem of control scheme differences.... and not have an arbitrary point of separation that between the two.

It doesn't, see my latest post. There are definitely still those that would be impacted. But again, only if you insist on playing cross platform, while also LIMITING controller scheme to one type. And to be honest, both options are probably coming, at least in other games. I think every xbox game that offers m k/b support is going to offer separate and mixed servers. Cross play is the real question, and as long as there are significant hardware differences and a higher percentage of cheaters on PC, you're always going to have Xbox users against forced cross play. So imho, cross play will continue to be optional in most games. Want an actual solution? Make PC games run on 'fixed' settings, and step up anti-cheat. Once you do both of those things then, and only then, should we be arguing for 'forced' crossplay.

there are hardware differences for xbox, why should those be cross play? The point your making doesn't matter. The option is a bad option long term. And with xbox seemingly making sure everything is "foward" compatible from here on now means that disparity will just grow with xbox... not to mention xbox players have option for keyboard mouse TODAY... if its officially supported it just means that xbox players will have proper support and devs can separate out that preference.. but they'll need large pools of kb/m players to play with their preference... wonder where they'll get that from.

Forget about the potential for windows to make licensed "steam machines" based on windows 10... which xbox basically is.

I'm sorry, but I remain unconvinced, and unfortunately I'm out of time. I'm all for options, so sure, let games create separation based on control scheme if they want. But I'll also continue to demand separation from PC based on my lifelong experience with cheating in multiplayer games on that platform.

If the argument against optional cross play is that it will 'unnecessarily create MORE separation' among the player base, maybe realize that some of us will refuse to play a game with forced cross play at all. So instead of splitting the player base into groups, you simply alienate an entire portion from the onset. I obviously can't claim which option is more conducive to a game's overall longevity, so I guess SoT will act as an interesting litmus test.

you may be unconvinced but your problems are factually unsolved by disabling cross play for the most part. The one exception is more cheaters but I still fail to see the point of the optional cross play when the vast majority of players don't cheat and likely you'll never see one.

Lol. no. My problems are ALL solved by maintaining status quo in this industry and disabling forced cross play. I get to play on a closed platform with minimal hardware disparities and the lowest population of cheaters (compared to PC). And I get to play against people with the same control scheme.

problem 1: fixed hardware? Not true any more, xbox is not fixed hardware and will not be in the future. Its already confirmed that games are forward compatible (new xboxes will be backwards compatible with xone), and the x one vs x one x have a fairly... large disparity.
problem 2: Different control schemes

• exists with xim
• likely to exist anyway when kb/m support is brought on.
  problem 3: other misc benefits for hardware, ssd's improve load time and pop in greatly in a game like SoT...

The status quo you speak of is already broken. Crossplay is not a solution to those things.

Cheaters is the only thing you got but its a small.. small portion of SoT. Crossplay to fix that is like using a j********r on a screw, it'll do far more damage than fixing the problem. Just ban cheaters...

And it doesn't matter if YOU don't think I'll ever see a single cheater. I've played PC for over 30 years and I've seen plenty, that's enough for me.

And they are significantly rarer now because of better anti cheat, better reporting, and this being a game that isn't super competitive. In my 3 months I haven't seen a single cheater in SoT... the last 30 years is really irrelevant to now.

You're the one (as is Rare) who is going to have an uphill battle convincing the entire industry to suddenly adopt the stance that it's profitable to force this lack of choice on their paying customers. Good luck with that. Maybe if Rare had a true blockbuster on their hand then yes, that could move the needle a bit. But honestly, do you think SoT has a wide enough audience, and was met with such unbridled success, that other developers are suddenly taking note and want to follow suit? I know where my money is. And if I'm wrong, then my money certainly won't be with MS or the developers who choose that road.

Because this choice is irrelevant. Its factually irrelevant and the ability to have friends pick and choose the platform they want is... FAR MORE CONSUMER FRIENDLY and giving them options where it matters is a good thing. If controllers are at a huge disadvantage choosing to be on equal playing field is a worthwhile choice... cross play does nothing.

And you are wrong. The things you want have already been decided on... optional crossplay is archaic and outdated for the vast majority of problems your stating.

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky I'm going to make another dig here, by clarifying.

The solution IS perfect for all xbox users. I understand that it's not as ideal for a PC user who wants to play WITH xbox users.

No its not.. as an xbox user... I would like to play with my PC friends that use controllers. A better solution is to allow us to match make with.. controller only players. PC players would be more likely to use controllers if they had a pool of controller only players to play with... And I could point out.. while I'm on my xbox.. that we won't be at a disadvantage using controllers.

Also an option I would like to see... is kb/m supported by xbox version of SoT... so my xbox friends can join us when we are all playing with kb/m... and if we feel we have an advantage using kb/m play with kb/m only players.

Again the assumption being the separation is necessary.

There really is no argument to force someone from one platform to play with another. Options, yes. Forcing, no. If your argument is 'I need players from that other platform to improve my enjoyment of the game' ....well, maybe you bought the wrong platform? Could it really be that simple?

The argument is there is no real benefit in separating players any more... and there is a massive benefit to having more players playing with each other. Separating them when its absolutely necessary only on the aspect that needs to be separate.

That is an argument.. its a valid argument.. As I've pointed out your arguments for separation are basically outdated I don't think you have any real foundation for disabling crossplay other than its a known but an indirect solution for separating control schemes. Only some games need that separation.

I don't understand. You would have those same options with optional cross play. You can play with your PC friend using a controller, or you can play with your PC friend using a m k/b, all while being on the xbox. If xbox releases m k/b support the same would continue to be true. The choice of course will always be up to you. What would be lost by allowing others to opt out? Other than potentially loosing a large portion of controller players, but as you said many times, that doesn't impact you in the least (right?)

if there is a problem with disparity with controller vs keyboard... than the point of any separation would solve that issue while letting me play with any one on any platform.. Yes?

Cross play explicitly doesn't do that. Its a non solution for a player that wants to play with someone on a different platform and either wants to stick to a control limitation, or play with a mix...

And again, the control scheme is not the only issue of disparity. There are other inherent hardware issues that will also be greater between PC and xbox, as well as the significantly higher percentage of cheaters found on PC. These are things that players should also be able to opt out of. I see no reason to say otherwise,

Its not the only issue of disparity but its the only one that currently matters, and is the only one that is exclusive to xbox... xbox can't use kb/m (except for xim so its not even really exclusive but w/e)...

xbox has disparities between xbox platform
xbox has disparities between external inputs
xbox has disparities between external accessories (my load times are awesome on an ssd on xbox...)

So all your reasons for wanting to disable crossplay... will not solve the problems you are stating.

Cheaters need to be banned. There is no other solution to cheaters. Everyone benefits from that solution.

all so PC users can have 'more' controller users to play against.

Your clearly ignoring my argument. As an xbox user... if there is a need to be separated I see know reason to exclude my PC friends from playing with on that point of separation to solve a problem with interface advantages... if we all are using controllers we should be able to play together. There is no reason to solve the interface advantage by not matching on interface.

No, you are ignoring my argument, as well as actual facts. Having cross play as optional would NOT exclude your PC friends from playing with you. That's what optional means. You, as an xbox user, check a box that says 'yes, let me play with my PC friends.' Make sense?

I'm not ingoring you... if the solution to input differences is disabling cross play... how does that solve the problem for either platform to have that solution and still be able to play with each other.

Again the choice you seem to be missing is fix the disparity in control scheme OR play cross platform with friends on different platforms... Its a bad choice. The rest of the arguments for disabling crossplay are outdated.

With that in mind, who exactly is impacted negatively by optional cross play? Who is not 'allowed' to play together?

Me. My friends. People who want to play together... and have a solution for the actual problem of control scheme differences.... and not have an arbitrary point of separation that between the two.

It doesn't, see my latest post. There are definitely still those that would be impacted. But again, only if you insist on playing cross platform, while also LIMITING controller scheme to one type. And to be honest, both options are probably coming, at least in other games. I think every xbox game that offers m k/b support is going to offer separate and mixed servers. Cross play is the real question, and as long as there are significant hardware differences and a higher percentage of cheaters on PC, you're always going to have Xbox users against forced cross play. So imho, cross play will continue to be optional in most games. Want an actual solution? Make PC games run on 'fixed' settings, and step up anti-cheat. Once you do both of those things then, and only then, should we be arguing for 'forced' crossplay.

there are hardware differences for xbox, why should those be cross play? The point your making doesn't matter. The option is a bad option long term. And with xbox seemingly making sure everything is "foward" compatible from here on now means that disparity will just grow with xbox... not to mention xbox players have option for keyboard mouse TODAY... if its officially supported it just means that xbox players will have proper support and devs can separate out that preference.. but they'll need large pools of kb/m players to play with their preference... wonder where they'll get that from.

Forget about the potential for windows to make licensed "steam machines" based on windows 10... which xbox basically is.

I'm sorry, but I remain unconvinced, and unfortunately I'm out of time. I'm all for options, so sure, let games create separation based on control scheme if they want. But I'll also continue to demand separation from PC based on my lifelong experience with cheating in multiplayer games on that platform.

If the argument against optional cross play is that it will 'unnecessarily create MORE separation' among the player base, maybe realize that some of us will refuse to play a game with forced cross play at all. So instead of splitting the player base into groups, you simply alienate an entire portion from the onset. I obviously can't claim which option is more conducive to a game's overall longevity, so I guess SoT will act as an interesting litmus test.

you may be unconvinced but your problems are factually unsolved by disabling cross play for the most part. The one exception is more cheaters but I still fail to see the point of the optional cross play when the vast majority of players don't cheat and likely you'll never see one.

Lol. no. My problems are ALL solved by maintaining status quo in this industry and disabling forced cross play. I get to play on a closed platform with minimal hardware disparities and the lowest population of cheaters (compared to PC). And I get to play against people with the same control scheme.

problem 1: fixed hardware? Not true any more, xbox is not fixed hardware and will not be in the future. Its already confirmed that games are forward compatible (new xboxes will be backwards compatible with xone), and the x one vs x one x have a fairly... large disparity.
problem 2: Different control schemes

• exists with xim
• likely to exist anyway when kb/m support is brought on.
  problem 3: other misc benefits for hardware, ssd's improve load time and pop in greatly in a game like SoT...

The status quo you speak of is already broken. Crossplay is not a solution to those things.

Cheaters is the only thing you got but its a small.. small portion of SoT. Crossplay to fix that is like using a j********r on a screw, it'll do far more damage than fixing the problem. Just ban cheaters...

And it doesn't matter if YOU don't think I'll ever see a single cheater. I've played PC for over 30 years and I've seen plenty, that's enough for me.

And they are significantly rarer now because of better anti cheat, better reporting, and this being a game that isn't super competitive. In my 3 months I haven't seen a single cheater in SoT... the last 30 years is really irrelevant to now.

You're the one (as is Rare) who is going to have an uphill battle convincing the entire industry to suddenly adopt the stance that it's profitable to force this lack of choice on their paying customers. Good luck with that. Maybe if Rare had a true blockbuster on their hand then yes, that could move the needle a bit. But honestly, do you think SoT has a wide enough audience, and was met with such unbridled success, that other developers are suddenly taking note and want to follow suit? I know where my money is. And if I'm wrong, then my money certainly won't be with MS or the developers who choose that road.

Because this choice is irrelevant. Its factually irrelevant and the ability to have friends pick and choose the platform they want is... FAR MORE CONSUMER FRIENDLY and giving them options where it matters is a good thing. If controllers are at a huge disadvantage choosing to be on equal playing field is a worthwhile choice... cross play does nothing.

And you are wrong. The things you want have already been decided on... optional crossplay is archaic and outdated for the vast majority of problems your stating.

Lol. Ok. Optional crossplay is 'outdated' because one game has released without it. Sure, let's go with that.

That's not what I said. So lets not go with that.

Other than that you're still using a strawman, every single time. Hardware disparities exist on xbox to a fraction of a degree that they exist on PC. I've made that clear in every one of my posts, but you continue to ignore (or perhaps purposefully misrepresent) that. Or rather, you equate 'some' (xbox) to 'a ton' (pc), which is almost like you think disparity is some sort of binary state. It's not either or, there are degrees, and those degrees matter. But I suspect you know that, and it just doesn't suit your argument.

So you seem to think its totally OK for something not to be separated when its a fractional problem... so why should we separate PC vs xbox players based on a fractional cheating problem? Or fractional benefits for some hardware differences?

Also why do you think the hardware disparities make as big of a difference in a game like SoT, people complain that the draw distance is bad.. seems like the only difference is the level of fidelity so its not like the hardware difference make a big disparity in regards to advantages...

hardware disparities existing on xbox isn't a strawman... its a fact. I have better loading times on xbox than most other xbox players thanks to an ssd...

As for cheaters, sorry, you're wrong there too. Care to site any evidence that cheating has become LESS of an issue for PC games? Because from where I'm standing it's quite the opposite. I've seen recent news stories about companies literally taking the creators of these cheats to court as a LAST resort to stamping this out...because they've been unable to do it themselves. I also continue to see stories about how developers are 'unleashing the ban-hammer' every few weeks, and banning literally hundreds of thousands of players at a time. Those are significant numbers...and in case you hadn't realized it, those are all people who likely were cheating in-game for weeks (or longer) before finally getting banned. Those are weeks I don't want to wait, and with xbox I've never had to. So again, you have no argument here other than that 'it shouldn't bother me', and that's simply not up to you.

Care to site any evidence its worse? Taking them to court is... likely to make an example out of them. How is this "worse" than before. Again the developers have said.. its a very small portion of the player base... How are measuring this as sizable problem?

And I have to lol once more at 'consumer friendly'. You're now trying to argue that FORCING players is more consumer friendly than giving players a choice. Seriously...well done.

Its more consumer friendly if they actually fix the problem when they are a problem. Not make problems by giving players the ability to arbitrarily segregate on outdated ideas for disabling cross play.

@dishingyou209 Not true in the least.

We pay for the software, we pay for the game pass access, we can and often are already full xbox gold members (I am for one), we are no different than you...

And considering that MS was about to sell off Xbox back in 2013 till recently and that shareholders wanted this as well, even Bill Gates gave his approval if it was desired...

Play anywhere and gamepass are the two things MS is hoping save the console by bringing in both PSN and PC users.

Yes, I have the option to play on PC. SO DOES LITERALLY EVERY PLAYER HERE. We're not some new community... we are you... but with PC's... and in my case ALSO Xbox's.

But I am "not a PC gamer" anymore than I would wager you are. When it comes to SoT I do play on PC but only because it frees up my living room.

You'll find more detailed points on this topic and perspective of mine in the Xbox vs PC thread.

But the bottom line is simple - Xbox hasn't been doing well by continuing the path they've set out for ages... but thanks to innovations such as gamepass and play anywhere and the push to marry the OS across all WIN10 styled (And later OS driven ) platforms they are consolidating their user base and increasing both shareholder trust, trade value, and customer count.

A customer count that other platforms have exceeded since XFLOP launched.

It’s been about three and a half years since Microsoft released official Xbox One sales figures. In November 2014, the company said it had sold 10 million Xbox Ones. A bit more insight was gained in January 2016 when Electronic Arts noted in an earnings call that about 18 million to 19 million of the console have been sold. But it’s been radio silence ever since.

Current estimates are 30 million at best.

As of March 31 2018, Sony reports, it has sold 79.8 million PS4.

So what the arguement tends to be is that Xbox was "just fine the way it was before evil crossplay started killing it" and "Xbox is going to die if it retains crossplay".

The numbers of increased customers says:

Your wrong.

That 15% your reporting I presume comes from the reference that SoT at launch had 14% of it's user base connected to PC.

That's ONE game...

The actual number of PC Xboxlive customers is going to be higher based on the notion that former PC only players now have a reason to reconnect to their Xbox. I am a prime example of that. I am a several year Xboxlive customer. But, despite that most of my gaming habits revolve around PC. Now, I can use either system for whatever reason I decide without big brother telling me no.

If anyone is going to "Save MSXbox" it's going to be those who slide over from PSN and PC. Not whiners who hate PC cause.....PC.... and haven't provided a potent enough population or value to the shareholders since 2013 to float a flogging division of an OS driven corporation.

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky I'm going to make another dig here, by clarifying.

The solution IS perfect for all xbox users. I understand that it's not as ideal for a PC user who wants to play WITH xbox users.

No its not.. as an xbox user... I would like to play with my PC friends that use controllers. A better solution is to allow us to match make with.. controller only players. PC players would be more likely to use controllers if they had a pool of controller only players to play with... And I could point out.. while I'm on my xbox.. that we won't be at a disadvantage using controllers.

Also an option I would like to see... is kb/m supported by xbox version of SoT... so my xbox friends can join us when we are all playing with kb/m... and if we feel we have an advantage using kb/m play with kb/m only players.

Again the assumption being the separation is necessary.

There really is no argument to force someone from one platform to play with another. Options, yes. Forcing, no. If your argument is 'I need players from that other platform to improve my enjoyment of the game' ....well, maybe you bought the wrong platform? Could it really be that simple?

The argument is there is no real benefit in separating players any more... and there is a massive benefit to having more players playing with each other. Separating them when its absolutely necessary only on the aspect that needs to be separate.

That is an argument.. its a valid argument.. As I've pointed out your arguments for separation are basically outdated I don't think you have any real foundation for disabling crossplay other than its a known but an indirect solution for separating control schemes. Only some games need that separation.

I don't understand. You would have those same options with optional cross play. You can play with your PC friend using a controller, or you can play with your PC friend using a m k/b, all while being on the xbox. If xbox releases m k/b support the same would continue to be true. The choice of course will always be up to you. What would be lost by allowing others to opt out? Other than potentially loosing a large portion of controller players, but as you said many times, that doesn't impact you in the least (right?)

if there is a problem with disparity with controller vs keyboard... than the point of any separation would solve that issue while letting me play with any one on any platform.. Yes?

Cross play explicitly doesn't do that. Its a non solution for a player that wants to play with someone on a different platform and either wants to stick to a control limitation, or play with a mix...

And again, the control scheme is not the only issue of disparity. There are other inherent hardware issues that will also be greater between PC and xbox, as well as the significantly higher percentage of cheaters found on PC. These are things that players should also be able to opt out of. I see no reason to say otherwise,

Its not the only issue of disparity but its the only one that currently matters, and is the only one that is exclusive to xbox... xbox can't use kb/m (except for xim so its not even really exclusive but w/e)...

xbox has disparities between xbox platform
xbox has disparities between external inputs
xbox has disparities between external accessories (my load times are awesome on an ssd on xbox...)

So all your reasons for wanting to disable crossplay... will not solve the problems you are stating.

Cheaters need to be banned. There is no other solution to cheaters. Everyone benefits from that solution.

all so PC users can have 'more' controller users to play against.

Your clearly ignoring my argument. As an xbox user... if there is a need to be separated I see know reason to exclude my PC friends from playing with on that point of separation to solve a problem with interface advantages... if we all are using controllers we should be able to play together. There is no reason to solve the interface advantage by not matching on interface.

No, you are ignoring my argument, as well as actual facts. Having cross play as optional would NOT exclude your PC friends from playing with you. That's what optional means. You, as an xbox user, check a box that says 'yes, let me play with my PC friends.' Make sense?

I'm not ingoring you... if the solution to input differences is disabling cross play... how does that solve the problem for either platform to have that solution and still be able to play with each other.

Again the choice you seem to be missing is fix the disparity in control scheme OR play cross platform with friends on different platforms... Its a bad choice. The rest of the arguments for disabling crossplay are outdated.

With that in mind, who exactly is impacted negatively by optional cross play? Who is not 'allowed' to play together?

Me. My friends. People who want to play together... and have a solution for the actual problem of control scheme differences.... and not have an arbitrary point of separation that between the two.

It doesn't, see my latest post. There are definitely still those that would be impacted. But again, only if you insist on playing cross platform, while also LIMITING controller scheme to one type. And to be honest, both options are probably coming, at least in other games. I think every xbox game that offers m k/b support is going to offer separate and mixed servers. Cross play is the real question, and as long as there are significant hardware differences and a higher percentage of cheaters on PC, you're always going to have Xbox users against forced cross play. So imho, cross play will continue to be optional in most games. Want an actual solution? Make PC games run on 'fixed' settings, and step up anti-cheat. Once you do both of those things then, and only then, should we be arguing for 'forced' crossplay.

there are hardware differences for xbox, why should those be cross play? The point your making doesn't matter. The option is a bad option long term. And with xbox seemingly making sure everything is "foward" compatible from here on now means that disparity will just grow with xbox... not to mention xbox players have option for keyboard mouse TODAY... if its officially supported it just means that xbox players will have proper support and devs can separate out that preference.. but they'll need large pools of kb/m players to play with their preference... wonder where they'll get that from.

Forget about the potential for windows to make licensed "steam machines" based on windows 10... which xbox basically is.

I'm sorry, but I remain unconvinced, and unfortunately I'm out of time. I'm all for options, so sure, let games create separation based on control scheme if they want. But I'll also continue to demand separation from PC based on my lifelong experience with cheating in multiplayer games on that platform.

If the argument against optional cross play is that it will 'unnecessarily create MORE separation' among the player base, maybe realize that some of us will refuse to play a game with forced cross play at all. So instead of splitting the player base into groups, you simply alienate an entire portion from the onset. I obviously can't claim which option is more conducive to a game's overall longevity, so I guess SoT will act as an interesting litmus test.

you may be unconvinced but your problems are factually unsolved by disabling cross play for the most part. The one exception is more cheaters but I still fail to see the point of the optional cross play when the vast majority of players don't cheat and likely you'll never see one.

Lol. no. My problems are ALL solved by maintaining status quo in this industry and disabling forced cross play. I get to play on a closed platform with minimal hardware disparities and the lowest population of cheaters (compared to PC). And I get to play against people with the same control scheme.

problem 1: fixed hardware? Not true any more, xbox is not fixed hardware and will not be in the future. Its already confirmed that games are forward compatible (new xboxes will be backwards compatible with xone), and the x one vs x one x have a fairly... large disparity.
problem 2: Different control schemes

• exists with xim
• likely to exist anyway when kb/m support is brought on.
  problem 3: other misc benefits for hardware, ssd's improve load time and pop in greatly in a game like SoT...

The status quo you speak of is already broken. Crossplay is not a solution to those things.

Cheaters is the only thing you got but its a small.. small portion of SoT. Crossplay to fix that is like using a j********r on a screw, it'll do far more damage than fixing the problem. Just ban cheaters...

And it doesn't matter if YOU don't think I'll ever see a single cheater. I've played PC for over 30 years and I've seen plenty, that's enough for me.

And they are significantly rarer now because of better anti cheat, better reporting, and this being a game that isn't super competitive. In my 3 months I haven't seen a single cheater in SoT... the last 30 years is really irrelevant to now.

You're the one (as is Rare) who is going to have an uphill battle convincing the entire industry to suddenly adopt the stance that it's profitable to force this lack of choice on their paying customers. Good luck with that. Maybe if Rare had a true blockbuster on their hand then yes, that could move the needle a bit. But honestly, do you think SoT has a wide enough audience, and was met with such unbridled success, that other developers are suddenly taking note and want to follow suit? I know where my money is. And if I'm wrong, then my money certainly won't be with MS or the developers who choose that road.

Because this choice is irrelevant. Its factually irrelevant and the ability to have friends pick and choose the platform they want is... FAR MORE CONSUMER FRIENDLY and giving them options where it matters is a good thing. If controllers are at a huge disadvantage choosing to be on equal playing field is a worthwhile choice... cross play does nothing.

And you are wrong. The things you want have already been decided on... optional crossplay is archaic and outdated for the vast majority of problems your stating.

Lol. Ok. Optional crossplay is 'outdated' because one game has released without it. Sure, let's go with that.

That's not what I said. So lets not go with that.

Other than that you're still using a strawman, every single time. Hardware disparities exist on xbox to a fraction of a degree that they exist on PC. I've made that clear in every one of my posts, but you continue to ignore (or perhaps purposefully misrepresent) that. Or rather, you equate 'some' (xbox) to 'a ton' (pc), which is almost like you think disparity is some sort of binary state. It's not either or, there are degrees, and those degrees matter. But I suspect you know that, and it just doesn't suit your argument.

So you seem to think its totally OK for something not to be separated when its a fractional problem... so why should we separate PC vs xbox players based on a fractional cheating problem? Or fractional benefits for some hardware differences?

Also why do you think the hardware disparities make as big of a difference in a game like SoT, people complain that the draw distance is bad.. seems like the only difference is the level of fidelity so its not like the hardware difference make a big disparity in regards to advantages...

hardware disparities existing on xbox isn't a strawman... its a fact. I have better loading times on xbox than most other xbox players thanks to an ssd...

As for cheaters, sorry, you're wrong there too. Care to site any evidence that cheating has become LESS of an issue for PC games? Because from where I'm standing it's quite the opposite. I've seen recent news stories about companies literally taking the creators of these cheats to court as a LAST resort to stamping this out...because they've been unable to do it themselves. I also continue to see stories about how developers are 'unleashing the ban-hammer' every few weeks, and banning literally hundreds of thousands of players at a time. Those are significant numbers...and in case you hadn't realized it, those are all people who likely were cheating in-game for weeks (or longer) before finally getting banned. Those are weeks I don't want to wait, and with xbox I've never had to. So again, you have no argument here other than that 'it shouldn't bother me', and that's simply not up to you.

Care to site any evidence its worse? Taking them to court is... likely to make an example out of them. How is this "worse" than before. Again the developers have said.. its a very small portion of the player base... How are measuring this as sizable problem?

And I have to lol once more at 'consumer friendly'. You're now trying to argue that FORCING players is more consumer friendly than giving players a choice. Seriously...well done.

Its more consumer friendly if they actually fix the problem when they are a problem. Not make problems by giving players the ability to arbitrarily segregate on outdated ideas for disabling cross play.

You said optional cross play is archaic. SoT is literally the ONLY example of forced cross play, so I assumed that was what you were using as your precedent. If it's not then I'll ask you to support your claim. However, keep in mind what 'archaic' means. Also keep in mind that there are games that launched this year that included it. So....yeah, this will be interesting.

Do you understand what "archaic" means? It has nothing to do with whether or not its widely adopted. Many archaic ideas are widely adopted.

As to separation, no...I said before, it's not 'totally ok' that there is now disparity between versions of the xbox...but that decision is made, so I have to live with it. But that's a far cry from inviting FURTHER and WIDER disparity by opening the floodgates to high end PC users. I'm sorry if you don't grasp the difference there, I'm not explaining it again.

Ok so your ok with some disparities... so why don't you list the disparities your not ok with and propose a way to segregate based on those... because cross play option ignores them.

As for cheaters...nah. I think I'll pass. I alluded to real news stories you can go verify yourself if you want, and the conclusions I draw from them are my own. But since you made the initial claim, feel free to cite your evidence that the cheating problem is improving. And just for the record, I'm going to need more than 'the developers have said' for the umpteenth time. Because I don't know how old you are, but developers have been saying that since day one. And yet here we are.

News stories say nothing of the % of people doing it.. I'll believe the developers that can take all the information and figure it out.

@vexed-anemone said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@wodyo

The hand is far more accurate than thumbsticks.
DPI is also not as important as people make out. I've tried the majority of mice as I was a competitive CS player.

That's why bunny hopping on a PC is more accurate than bunny hopping on a controller.
On my console, I mostly bunny hop to evade. On a PC i'd bunny hop to evade and strike more easily.

Getting a XIM or elite controller is not the answer for the majority. The majority who bought an Xbox because PC gaming didn't suit them, or in most cases, their family.
You've provided two solutions, but optional crossplay still trumps them both.

Nah, you saying the difference is controller vs kb/m, just match make based on that...