Cannons are depressingly underpowered in PvP

  • Filthy Eleven
    Ship Mate

    Tldr; skip the first two paragraphs of complaint and you will find actual suggestions.

    My biggest problem with SoT overall is this: PvP comes down to an essentially halo1 level ancient shooter game. There are these incredibly fun, unique mechanics for ships battling ships, with the potential for complex tactics and a very high skill cap. However, because the ships are so easy to repair, winning without boarding is almost impossible against a decent crew, and takes an excruciatingly long, repetitive amount of time and a very immersion breaking number of successful cannon shots to accomplish. I would like to feel rewarded for sniping someone below the water with a canon from max range, but as it stands, doing so is almost entirely useless. My brother basically quit playing the game after we lost a battle against a sloop that we had landed like 30 cannon shots to their 10, we eventually ran out of balls, rammed them amd lost the melee.

    To be clear, I am not totally against the simple personal combat system. I believe it could be improved, but for the sake of this post just assume the combat is fine. My person preference however is for what i consider the more unique and engaging ship vs ship sailing and cannoning combat, and I would like to see the game balanced properly between the two. Currently I believe cannons are very underpowered, and the run-them-out-of-planks, war of attrition that sticking to your cannons inevitably leads to ruins my favorite part of the game.

    Suggestions A - Cannon Buffing

    1. You could make patched holes open back up when an adjacent hole is made.
    2. You could make holes take extra wood and time to re-repair, and you could make that continue to scale as the same spot is broken multiple times.
    3. You could allow various structural damage to a ships rudder, mast, helm, anchor, and or sails.
    4. You could add special ammo types - this is my least favorite option, which I have seen others advocate. I think it would be gimmiky, and not solve the basic balance and immersion issue I have with seeing a ship take 40 normal cannonballs below the water and keep sailing.

    Suggestions B - Nerf Boarding

    1. Allow the crew to raise ladders, preventing some of what I consider the overly silly swim to win strategy.
    2. Increase respawn wait time for boarders specifically, I'd only suggest this if you add some of the powerful boarding buffs I mention below, primarily if you add some more ways for a boarder to sabotage a ship.

    Suggestions C - Buff Boarding to keep up with significant cannon buffing

    1. Add rope swinging from the sails and crows nest. Give it a generous range, so we can drive by blasting, and swing a boarder on in the same pass without the silly swimming.
    2. Add a grappling hook, could be used from the water even with the ladders raised, but uses a weapon slot.
    3. Add ways to sabatoge the ship when boarded, cut the sail lines, throw supplies overboard.

    Taken together I think my suggested changes would make PvP combat quicker, more variable, and more exciting, by playing on the most unique elements of the current system whilst leaving the down and dirty personal combat powerful and relevant.

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  • Blam320
    Legend
    Insider

    I would honestly nerf repairing; cannons are fine as they are. Right now, it's possible to stock over thirty planks before even leaving the outpost, all while finding many more at islands you stop at.

    Not to mention Bailing is very, very powerful at the moment; two people bailing can keep either type of ship from sinking easily.

    Trouble is figuring out how.

  • DrunkPunk138
    Master
    Founder

    Am I the only one that feels the balance of combat between ships and boarding is just about perfect? the dynamic nature of battle as a result of these two aspects is what keeps it interesting for me. I think it's great that you can't excel at just one aspect of the game and win every fight. And for those battles that just last too long because of an even footing, supplies come into play.

  • Blam320
    Legend
    Insider

    @drunkpunk138 said in Cannons are depressingly underpowered in PvP:

    Am I the only one that feels the balance of combat between ships and boarding is just about perfect? the dynamic nature of battle as a result of these two aspects is what keeps it interesting for me. I think it's great that you can't excel at just one aspect of the game and win every fight. And for those battles that just last too long because of an even footing, supplies come into play.

    It's rather difficult to board a vessel while both are at full-billow and/or maneuvering on the high seas. You'd need to be a dead shot with the cannon to get yourself over to the enemy ship.

  • DrunkPunk138
    Master
    Founder

    @blam320 said in Cannons are depressingly underpowered in PvP:

    @drunkpunk138 said in Cannons are depressingly underpowered in PvP:

    Am I the only one that feels the balance of combat between ships and boarding is just about perfect? the dynamic nature of battle as a result of these two aspects is what keeps it interesting for me. I think it's great that you can't excel at just one aspect of the game and win every fight. And for those battles that just last too long because of an even footing, supplies come into play.

    It's rather difficult to board a vessel while both are at full-billow and/or maneuvering on the high seas. You'd need to be a dead shot with the cannon to get yourself over to the enemy ship.

    Yeah, but the chase is a part of the thrill. Attempting to catch up to a competent crew is a blast, because somebody always makes a mistake... whether that's you or them is the deciding factor in those situations. Creating chaos and utilizing that chaos to force those mistakes is what the ship battles are all about, especially when galleons are involved.

  • Filthy Eleven
    Ship Mate

    @blam320 That is my primary suggestion. I'm against special ammo, and let me be clear extra status inflicting types of damage to specific ship components (mast, sails, rudder, helm, etc) would be too powerful without strong boarding buffs to maintain balance. Also making the hand to hand combat more fun would go a long way towards making me happy tbh.

  • Filthy Eleven
    Ship Mate

    @drunkpunk138 Note that I support buffing boarding in certain ways so as to keep up with less ridiculously durable ships. It should absolutely be optimal to use both avenues of attack strategically. However, right now you can ram and clunky shooter a crew to death, while you cannot likewise cannon sea battle them to the bitter depths without an aggravatingly drawn out war of attrition. Hitting the enemy with cannons just feels so much less rewarding than I think it should.

  • Daddy Sanctus
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @drunkpunk138 said in Cannons are depressingly underpowered in PvP:

    Am I the only one that feels the balance of combat between ships and boarding is just about perfect? the dynamic nature of battle as a result of these two aspects is what keeps it interesting for me. I think it's great that you can't excel at just one aspect of the game and win every fight. And for those battles that just last too long because of an even footing, supplies come into play.

    I agree! You can take out a crew without boarding by direct hits with cannons to kill them, or explosives. Usually allowing for enough water to flood into the hull.

    If it was made too easy to sink ships, requiring people to stay on board, then people wouldn’t be able to leave their ships to fight which would reduce one major mechanic of PvP battles.

    I think the mechanics are fine how they are.

  • rockinpodunk
    Captain
    Insider

    I agree, and have talked about this in other threads. Cannon fights are the most fun and most unique form of PVP currently in the game, but it's so easy to keep a ship afloat, engaging in a cannon fight is generally a waste of time if you actually hope to sink the other ship.

    I would love to see either an increase in the difficulty of boarding, or an increase to the speed at which water fills the hull, perhaps proportionate to the number of crew members.

    A lot of people have suggested letting us raise our ladders to incentivize cannon fights, but outside of battle, I could see some annoyances that would cause. Right now, the standard operating procedure is for the leading ship to drop a player, and they spam the x button until they are close to the ladder with a pretty sloppy margin of error, and climb aboard.

    My suggestion is to either make the ladder's area of interactibility (not a word?) so small you actually have to be right up against it, so that those dive and board types would have to have some serious skill to grab the ladder of a chasing ship, or alternatively just make it physically impossible to interact with the ladder if the ship is moving beyond a certain speed, since in real life, if you were in the water and a ship came cruising by at a modest speed of 8 or 10 knots and you tried to grab the ladder, it would pull your arm right out of its socket.

  • lotrmith
    Marauder
    Insider

    He who boards ship with no holes is rage filled rat stuck in floating cage.

    ((You must fire cannons to put holes in ships and board them as well to prevent repairs. It is well balanced.))

  • Lenny2k3

    Boarding is the only viable strategy to sink players because bailing water and repairing is too effective, if you simply drop your sails the moment you receive any significant damage.

    However, if you increase the damage/lower the repairing to such an extent that moving ships are threatened by cannonballs, you kill boarding as a strategy, since it would be far too risky.

    In other words, what the game needs is a better way to stall players, apart from dropping their anchor (again, boarding), in combination with a very slighy tweak(nerf) to water bailing and repairing.

  • Captain Fob4141
    Commander
    Insider

    @filthy-eleven said in Cannons are depressingly underpowered in PvP:

    @drunkpunk138 Note that I support buffing boarding in certain ways so as to keep up with less ridiculously durable ships. It should absolutely be optimal to use both avenues of attack strategically. However, right now you can ram and clunky shooter a crew to death, while you cannot likewise cannon sea battle them to the bitter depths without an aggravatingly drawn out war of attrition. Hitting the enemy with cannons just feels so much less rewarding than I think it should.

    Aim at the crew with the cannon to kill them and you can sink them fast

  • MaliceVanRow
    Captain

    Sorry but this is not broken and there is no reason to fix it. Boarding is also fine. A competent player will always put up a good fight with a boarder. It keeps you on your toes.

  • Reedski
    Marauder
    Insider

    I think the problem people have with cannons is not pacing themselves, get a couple of hits, wait for them to repair, hit again whilst they repair to knock them off/kill them, repeat as necessary. They'll probably try to board you to stop you shooting to give the repairs a chance! If you're fighting on the move having two guys repairing is seriously going to hinder your ability to run or retaliate, so just outmanoeuvre them. As for the other suggestions B+C, I love them all, great stuff, would really make things exciting especially on ramming maneuvers and side swipes! I really love the idea that a tool for maneuverability would take a weapon slot, easier to get on, harder to stay on, perfect for anchor/ladder drops to get some other lads on! Great stuff mate, but you're wrong about cannons.

  • Lenny2k3

    @reedski
    Oh I see, the tactic is to stop shooting instead of keeping the barrage going to deal more damage(??), and then hope the opponents abandon their own ship.

    REALLY makes me think.

  • BodhiSlam

    "halo1 level ancient shooter game"

    god I feel old.

  • Lenny2k3

    @personalc0ffee said in Cannons are depressingly underpowered in PvP:> No dude.

    You stagger the shots after you fire a few to give them time to go down there and start repairing, then you hit the same spot and you kill the person repairing so they have to send someone else and you keep doing it while the ship slowly fills with water and your boarder goes makes life hard for them.

    Why would you give them time, when you could give them 3 more hulls and still interrupt repairs? All you've done is deal less damage, it literally makes no sense.

  • Lenny2k3

    @a-trusty-mango
    It takes comparable time to repair 1 hull, then what it takes to fill your pouches with cannonballs and continue firing. If you stop firing for only a brief momemt, you've already lost several hulls, which easily outweighs this supposed strategy instantly.

    If they have more hulls, they are more pressed to repair, which leaves them more open to getting hit by cannonballs when repairing. This entire 'strategy' makes no sense.

  • Ktingaling
    Marauder
    Insider
    Founder

    I think the balance is quite fine actually..
    Just don't focus all your shots on the hull, but also on the deck. You can easily shoot people off the deck or kill them. When there is nobody on the deck, spread the shots all along the hull, first below waterline and after that also on the first floor for a galleon.

    Sloops is a bit different tho.. They aren't that easy to sink now i think of it..

  • Android Ouija
    Master

    @filthy-eleven my crew out-cannoned another gally until they sank. We raised sails and just unloaded. i was getting hit markers on the guys repairing, shooting the guys off their cannons and knocking them off their anchor. its all about strategy and making shots count.

  • Reedski
    Marauder
    Insider

    @a-trusty-mango @PersonalC0ffee I'm glad some of you get it, short controlled bursts, don't just s***f your load like your virginity is on the line, take your time, sinking a ship is like making love to a beautiful woman, find the places that matter, give them your attention, don't forget to change position once in a while, increase activity and pressure if you sense the need

  • Ktingaling
    Marauder
    Insider
    Founder

    @reedski said in Cannons are depressingly underpowered in PvP:

    @a-trusty-mango @PersonalC0ffee I'm glad some of you get it, short controlled bursts, don't just s***f your load like your virginity is on the line, take your time, sinking a ship is like making love to a beautiful woman, find the places that matter, give them your attention, don't forget to change position once in a while, increase activity and pressure if you sense the need

    Haha! That sounds so wrong and yet it is (in both situations) so true! :)

  • Fantome of Blue
    Ship Mate

    To me it sounds like you suffered some kind of latency issue, or, there were more players on the other boat than you knew about.

    It takes roughly six seconds to repair a hole, and less time to load and shoot a canon. And remember the admonition at the beginning of the game's open, shoot below the water line for holes to appear. If all you're doing it hitting he side rails, wheels, or anything topside, then you get those less leaky holes that very slowly flood the hull. That verse if you have 30 shots below the water line, which should have sank them within seconds. But again, it sounds like most of your hits were high up on the ship.

    And, to be honest, I got killed a few days back while repairing a hole. For a split second I thought about eating another banana because my health was in the red, but thought the odds of another below the waterline shot hitting where I was repairing where low enough that I could risk the repair without freshening my health. But, the canon gods were with the galleon that I was fighting, and another canon ball hit the exact same spot I was repairing.

    I died, and I exited the game angry at myself.

    So, I'm not sure what happened with your engagement there, but it was either a latency issue or, again, you were scoring hits high up on the superstructure.

  • Wodyo

    I have to admit, I'm not going to take the time to read all of the comments on here (i've got a big day planned, lol). I'm just going to state my peace, for now :) ...

    Over the past week, I've had quite a few PvP experiences. Most have been solo (as I play solo 90% + of the time), but yesterday I played with a 4-man Galleon.

    Cannons are Not "underpowered." I've seen so many green ghouls floating to their afterlife, while manning the cannon(s) on my ship(s), that I honestly laughed when I read your headline. No way are cannons underpowered.

  • RumHam636

    @a-trusty-mango said in Cannons are depressingly underpowered in PvP:

    @lenny2k3 It doesn't. It takes literally like 3 seconds to slap a plank up.

    The point of staggering your shots is so that you kill the person repairing behind the hull. You have 10 shots, 5 planks. Put 5 holes below the water line. Wait. Shoot. Kill the man repairing. Now they have 3 holes. Along with the other 5 you just put in them. And they are a man down. And that water is pouring in while someone else has to break off. grab wood, go below and scoop and throw a plank up.

    And in that time, you keep shooting. Putting more holes in their lower and mid deck. Making it even hard to repair.

    In my experience you don't stagger cannons so much as people shooting. When we are firing I usually have one of my crew take over the helm as I am a pretty good cannon shot. 1 below waiting for repairs, 1 driving and two shooting. Thing is we don't unload 20 shots then go for more, I shoot my 10 then he shoots his. This ensures a constant stream of cannonballs that no crew can repair. Also as much as you might not want to aim for the deck if they have crew up there. You can kill/knock them off and hits on the deck will put holes in the mid deck which are essential to sinking a galleon. If its all only below water they can keep up. If two decks are leaking its over.

  • vDracule Mihawk
    Marauder
    Insider

    If you ever find yourself in a War of Attrition your initial strategy wasn't the right one. If you've been exchanging cannon fire for over 10 minutes and neither ship appears to be sinking, then it's time to change it up and adopt a new strategy.

    That being said, I'd like to see a mechanic added where if you hit another ship with 50 cannonballs it explodes!

  • HaydnSym45
    Marauder
    Insider

    If cannonballs aren’t good enough, a couple old-fashioned gunpowder barrels under the keel should do the trick.

  • DaddyMacDown

    What if they just lowered the amount of planks you can store on your ship from 100 to 35 or 40? This would make ship warfare a little more tense and people would stop giving chase once they run out of wood. This keeps the high skill cap and punishes those who don't know what they are doing

  • RumHam636

    @daddymacdown I personally like the "hull wear" idea. Where the first time you repair a hole it takes X time. Should it be opened again it takes X+1 and so on to a maximum that is still within reason.

  • DrunkPunk138
    Master
    Founder

    @rumham636 said in Cannons are depressingly underpowered in PvP:

    @daddymacdown I personally like the "hull wear" idea. Where the first time you repair a hole it takes X time. Should it be opened again it takes X+1 and so on to a maximum that is still within reason.

    I feel that mechanics like this are fine within the context of a single battle, but for those who fight through several battles and carry on, it seems a bit unreasonable and puts someone who has braved through several battles at a disadvantage the next fight they get into. Also doesn't help the victor for skull fort battles, when people continue to throw themselves at the fort after sinking. That can already be frustrating enough in regards to supplies.

  • RumHam636

    @drunkpunk138 said in Cannons are depressingly underpowered in PvP:

    @rumham636 said in Cannons are depressingly underpowered in PvP:

    @daddymacdown I personally like the "hull wear" idea. Where the first time you repair a hole it takes X time. Should it be opened again it takes X+1 and so on to a maximum that is still within reason.

    I feel that mechanics like this are fine within the context of a single battle, but for those who fight through several battles and carry on, it seems a bit unreasonable and puts someone who has braved through several battles at a disadvantage the next fight they get into. Also doesn't help the victor for skull fort battles, when people continue to throw themselves at the fort after sinking. That can already be frustrating enough in regards to supplies.

    It adds a layer of challenge sure. But based on your posts here I wouldnt think you to be one to shy away from challenges. It would change our whole concept of when and how to engage an enemy. It would also need to come with the ability to pay for a "repair" at the shipwright. Nothing too crazy as if it were too high a fee people would just start in a diff server. Would need the be the right amount of gold to warrant not hunting down all those planks and bananas again.

  • DrunkPunk138
    Master
    Founder

    @rumham636 said in Cannons are depressingly underpowered in PvP:

    @drunkpunk138 said in Cannons are depressingly underpowered in PvP:

    @rumham636 said in Cannons are depressingly underpowered in PvP:

    @daddymacdown I personally like the "hull wear" idea. Where the first time you repair a hole it takes X time. Should it be opened again it takes X+1 and so on to a maximum that is still within reason.

    I feel that mechanics like this are fine within the context of a single battle, but for those who fight through several battles and carry on, it seems a bit unreasonable and puts someone who has braved through several battles at a disadvantage the next fight they get into. Also doesn't help the victor for skull fort battles, when people continue to throw themselves at the fort after sinking. That can already be frustrating enough in regards to supplies.

    It adds a layer of challenge sure. But based on your posts here I wouldnt think you to be one to shy away from challenges. It would change our whole concept of when and how to engage an enemy. It would also need to come with the ability to pay for a "repair" at the shipwright. Nothing too crazy as if it were too high a fee people would just start in a diff server. Would need the be the right amount of gold to warrant not hunting down all those planks and bananas again.

    I do like a challenge, sure. But I appreciate the consistency of the experience, ensuring skill is the determining factor in the outcome of the battle. That the decisions made dictate the outcome, rather than decisions combined with penalties for previous encounters. Supplies already add a dynamic to break stalemates. Varying degrees of repair time doesn't feel to me like something that adds to the experience in a positive way.

  • RumHam636

    @drunkpunk138 said in Cannons are depressingly underpowered in PvP:

    @rumham636 said in Cannons are depressingly underpowered in PvP:

    @drunkpunk138 said in Cannons are depressingly underpowered in PvP:

    @rumham636 said in Cannons are depressingly underpowered in PvP:

    @daddymacdown I personally like the "hull wear" idea. Where the first time you repair a hole it takes X time. Should it be opened again it takes X+1 and so on to a maximum that is still within reason.

    I feel that mechanics like this are fine within the context of a single battle, but for those who fight through several battles and carry on, it seems a bit unreasonable and puts someone who has braved through several battles at a disadvantage the next fight they get into. Also doesn't help the victor for skull fort battles, when people continue to throw themselves at the fort after sinking. That can already be frustrating enough in regards to supplies.

    It adds a layer of challenge sure. But based on your posts here I wouldnt think you to be one to shy away from challenges. It would change our whole concept of when and how to engage an enemy. It would also need to come with the ability to pay for a "repair" at the shipwright. Nothing too crazy as if it were too high a fee people would just start in a diff server. Would need the be the right amount of gold to warrant not hunting down all those planks and bananas again.

    I do like a challenge, sure. But I appreciate the consistency of the experience, ensuring skill is the determining factor in the outcome of the battle. That the decisions made dictate the outcome, rather than decisions combined with penalties for previous encounters. Supplies already add a dynamic to break stalemates. Varying degrees of repair time doesn't feel to me like something that adds to the experience in a positive way.

    Sure...stands to reason tho that a ship that has been in more fights would naturally be weaker. Just a thought is all.

  • Jdge439
    Captain
    Insider

    Our strat,
    three cannoneers, 2-3 volleys on the crew or until noticeable loss of life, including the command deck.

    Then fire at the hull 2-3 volleys, and hold fire.

    all hands below deck. excluding helmsman.

    usually works pretty good, no boarding, nor wasted cannonballs.

  • Fantome of Blue
    Ship Mate

    I tested it. 6 seconds to path a hole, 2 seconds to load and shoot a canon.

    Which tells me that the OP wasn't scoring waterline or below hits, but hitting the upper section.

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