Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.

@cpt-prosthesy

Well... I don't want to go over it again. There is plenty of info in this thread where I have fleshed out my arguments.

Maybe a player on a voyage would receive reputation for finding the item, gold for selling it at an outpost, and a thief would receive both reputation

But that idea is significantly worse. We've addressed it. Basically you are heavily incentivizing PvP or cheesing by trading chests, since now your own loot is basically worthless for rep.. Either PvP will break because no one wants to bother pick up loot (which they do now), PvP will be excessive because every one elses loot is more valuable with 0 risk of your own.

I totally get that we are used to reward for task but I like the game as reward for loot, task is any way to acquire it. Again if they build on this idea and fail I'll concede it didn't work. But lets let them develop the idea beyond a skeletal structure, because the freedom of choosing how to earn loot, we need more ways of earning loot that are fun and interesting.

One of the problems is gold just isn't an enticing reward, any one that has played a good chunk of time is sitting on their own horde of gold. Which really goes against the point of this thread. Nobody is unable to progress. Occasionally mistakes are made and you lose some time. That won't change with creating a distribution for different aspects. There will be a loss of time and they will likely make sure your time is worth less for the more consistent rewards thus be an equal amount of time lost.

It really only tries to sooth one group of players... ego.

@angrycoconut16 Of course it makes sense that you don’t gain faction reputation for killing a pirate or the kraken. Why would a faction give two figs if you did either of those things when you didn’t finish the job? The problem is that you are confusing faction reputation with general reputation. If I win the NY Marathon, folks may be impressed, but it’s not going to get me a raise at my job. It won’t increase my reputation as an employee. Doing my job does that.

A higher reputation Pirate doesn’t necessarily equal a better pirate or a more difficult foe. He didn’t get to be a higher reputation because he defeated others, he got there by delivering, so why would a faction care what reputation that guy was if you can’t deliver?

And, no, your character itself is not progressing. Apart from the cosmetic trappings, your character is exactly the same as it was on day one. You have no greater abilities or skills than were available to you on that first day. You progress in the factions and the rewards are cosmetic ways to show others where you stand with factions. Pirate Legend is, at this point, the ultimate progression with the factions, but, apart from the cosmetics, your character is still the same guy - with the same skills, same abilities - he was when he was a lowly sailor. The character itself has progressed not one iota.

@angrycoconut16 I honestly don't think you understand reputation as it applies to in-game factions.

But that's besides the point. How you choose to classify the reward is irrelevant to this thread.

@cpt-prosthesy said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@savagetwinky
And I see what you mean about ego. When I get sunk with loot on board, I’m not raging and ready to uninstall. The “lose everything” factor makes me rethink my gameplay, and consider how I can do better the next time I’m being hunted.

The major issue that comes into play here is when you just can’t fight, and you can only run. I believe that could be alleviated somewhat if something like hull variations were in place, where each ship type could equip a lightweight, fast hull, a balanced hull, or a heavy, slower hull, depending on what they wish to accomplish. That would at least reduce the chances of hunts going on for over an hour...

I think part of the problem with different equipment... is we need a lot more equipment. For instance any one that turns slow, is a big easy target, will likely be avoided. I think the only reasons people use galleons over sloops in a 4 man is because they have to. Otherwise the PvP meta relies too much on boarding. There is definitely a lot of consideration that needs to be put into expanding out equipment / tactics... as well as accommodating shorter play sessions.

I just think that this isn't the only solution to most of the issues being posed, it only solves the one aspect, the ego, or people that only view their time spent in the game as through how much rep they gained. For instance if they adjusted the rep return for consistency by significantly lowering the rewards so it would be averaged the.. same. What good did that really do compared to the value of the loot in moment to moment gameplay.

Sometimes when you can't fight, it's best just to save w/e you can. Get some speed, if you can get your boat on the tent it's a lot faster to turn in.

Rest bonus, ability to select quest length , better rewards for a higher rank voyage , More activities that can direct hostile players attention, short difficult activities for shorter play sessions. There are a lot of ways that more PvE focused players and players that do not have much time can be helped while adding interesting mechanics.

@cpt-prosthesy said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

3. No unique rewards for PvP.
   This goes along with the last point. What makes me, as a player, want to engage other players in combat? Right now, either it’s bloodthirst, or the chance to get some easy rep/gold in addition to my own current voyages. With some sort of rewards for specific PvP actions, or contracts to sink player ships, there would be another purpose, and another way to spend gold. Maybe PvP contracts could cost thousands to begin. On the flip side, to counterbalance the encouragement toward PvP play, there could be rewards for altruistic actions, like repairing another ship, giving loot, etc.

Maybe, but if your getting all the same rewards for shared PvE/PvP rewards it means players don't have to work for a PvP faction explicitly.

I know I've used dark souls a lot in this thread. That's an example of something I think wouldn't work for this game... I think it would just devolve into 2 teams of red vs blue with no real structure, there just isn't enough players on a map for that. The invasion system allows for people to drop in to attack.. and defend from nearly any where so you have a high chance of getting that balance. It would be hard to fit in this game properly.

The alternative is no real incentive to attack someone outside of the loot. I think that sort of and has proven to open up some alliances between players when there is more than 2 ships. I've been helped and have helped others, either duo sloops vs gal or gal/sloop vs gal, or 2 gal vs 1 gal.

I also have a mic and refuse to play in party chat.

I think 1 you got right. But 2/3 somewhat opposite. It's more about removing any explicit incentive to do a specific thing in the game. Given the player's a lot more flexibility in how they earn their loot. If they want to hunt other players religiously or voyage. Which is why I'd like to see more ways/events to acquire loot. I like the fact that there is no distinction between stolen / PvE rewards.

FOR INSTANCE. For players that want to only do skull forts there could be a voyage the initiates one and since they know its coming they'll have a bit of an advantage to get it. OR if a player loses a c**p ton of loot, pop up another type of skull fort.. like maybe if he leaves dives into the red sea. That way the PvPer still has to fight for it.

@angrycoconut16 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@entspeak How about doing these things AND finishing the job? Why wouldn't they give two figs about that? For instance maybe a bonus rep if they successfully defeated threats and still turned in their contract? The fact that you are able to fight off these threats makes you more trustworthy to carry our their voyages and return with whatever you are contracted to collect.

If you paid someone to go and collect some rare chest, wouldn't you have a higher regard for someone who had proven that he can fight off a legendary beast rather than someone who has just delivered white chickens multiple times? Wouldn't their reputation naturally be higher? For instance you could literally imagine the NPC discussions [GH to OoS] 'you need this dangerous skull collecting? Oh you should give that contract to entspeak! He collected my chest and was attacked by the Kraken but he fought it off and successfully got my chest back to me! He's fantastic!' aka higher reputation.

I do agree, higher rep doesn't = better. But I am just illustrating why rep is not rep, and purely exp. Perhaps the pirate example is more debatable you gave a good example there but I sure as hell think defending vs a strong AI threat should net you more rep for the reasons stated above. It simply doesn't.

The key aspect of what you are describing here is delivery. Are you shifting the idea now to deliver more rep on delivery based on events occurring during the voyage? Because what you’re talking about here is not the idea being presented for this thread.

I agree that something should be given for dealing with an AI threat like the Kraken - I have said as much before. Having some loot burble up from the depths or falling from the mouths of the tentacles would be a good solution. But, gaining reputation with a faction should be based on finishing the job... not failing to finish the job. As others have said, the primary operator here is loot... because it can be stolen.

Your character doesn't have to progress in terms of power for it to be experience. You unlock cosmetics, new voyage and a title from playing the game... and the currency used to unlock these things acts more like experience than reputation.

Only in the sense that you have to experience something in the game in order to gain reputation... which is just the way life works. It acts exactly like reputation - you get those things because you have increased it. Of course a merchant would give you increasingly difficult, more rewarding (WIP) voyages as your reputation increases - that makes sense when looking at it as reputation. And, in every game that I know of that uses experience points, they are used to unlock abilities or items that help the player continue through the game - not solely cosmetic items that confer absolutely no added benefit to the character.

@cpt-prosthesy

Maybe, but I think, and where my problem lies with adding value to something other then loot, is the loot will be worth less proportionally... and everyone that says its a steep grind.. not really. It's only been a couple of months and huge swaths of people are already PL. As more and more people get rep up... the change to the loot tables could potentially accelerate the entire community to PL. Just think as time goes on, your more likely to play with a high level player (although if you solo only it should be flat out easier now) and get boosted with better loot tables, or boost lower levels. Remember the voyages are shared with a crew..

I don't think this rep / loss of everything, even remotely matters... because the loot is valuable enough to compensate for losses or... lets say losing 4+ hours of grinding loot to a pizza delivery guy at a real poor time... I think what hurts the game the most is the lack of diversity of voyages / events / hazards / player culmination points.

I think people are just overstating the issue. They lose a bunch of chests being careless / losing track of time / complacent then run to the forum all grumpy like. I would be really surprised if you could find players struggling to progress in a timely manner. And that's the real issue. Is whether or not PvP is stopping players from progressing entirely. Server issues aren't helping but they'll get them ironed out eventually.

@gerinako86 depends on what you mean by 'rewarding', it makes it more rewarding in a different way, less in another. Incentives a particular play style. And they'll have to make the overall value of VC + loot less to compensate for additional consistency of turn in so loss in a single evening will be a similar setback.

Not quite a no brainer

@gerinako86 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@savagetwinky said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@gerinako86 depends on what you mean by 'rewarding', it makes it more rewarding in a different way, less in another. Incentives a particular play style. And they'll have to make the overall value of VC + loot less to compensate for additional consistency of turn in.

Not quite a no brainer

Nah - it's in terms of if someones spent two hours completing voyages they still get something out of it. While the PVP'er still gets the majority out of it.

Both parties win.

No brainer

There wouldn't be as many aggressors because VC is better now.
Problem 1) push more risk to being an aggressor

PVPer can still lose the loot and … not be rewarded at all.
Problem 2) push more risk to being an aggressor

Problems 1/2 you create will incentives PvE over PvP actions. The people that say they will PvE more... from whom? Are you getting attacked all day long now? Is this really a problem with being attacked to often?

More consistent rep gain
Problem 3) could potentially make it too easy to rank up

And now everything has to be rebalanced. Great both parties won but they win a lot less making it a less rewarding experience. Assuming there is even a second party which this change will reduce the incentive of attacking.

Not a no brainer.

@angrycoconut16 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@gerinako86 Agreed. I think several people on this thread haven't read my OP where I specifically acknowledge PvE incentive over PvP. That incentive already exists lol, if you only PvP and ignore the PvE side of the game it is far harder for you to gain gold and rep, thus the PvP side already lacks incentive compared to PvE. Yes this would make that worse, but:

1. It would encourage PvP as PART of PvPvE
2. People who only want to PvP need help anyway, some sort of dedicated system.. and if Rare were up for that I'd strongly support it. A faction, a bounty, souls, people have come up with awesome suggestions :)

We read it, you really were dismissive and underplayed what we've said in this thread, you completely misrepresented our arguments to make your idea sound better, ignored points of contention with your own hypotheticals while presenting them as a matter of fact...

The fact is it's not that simple of a change to the core experience.

People who only want to play PvP exclusively.. play blackwake. That's the nice thing about pvp players, they look for fun first and go to where the game is most fun for them.

A dedicated PvP system would ruin this game. And factually ruin what makes the game unique.

@angrycoconut16 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@gerinako86 Agreed. I think several people on this thread haven't read my OP where I specifically acknowledge PvE incentive over PvP. That incentive already exists lol, if you only PvP and ignore the PvE side of the game it is far harder for you to gain gold and rep, thus the PvP side already lacks incentive compared to PvE. Yes this would make that worse, but:

1. It would encourage PvP as PART of PvPvE
2. People who only want to PvP need help anyway, some sort of dedicated system.. and if Rare were up for that I'd strongly support it. A faction, a bounty, souls, people have come up with awesome suggestions :)

Anyone with the delusion that this will make PvP more enjoyable will change their minds when they engage in PvP and still wind up sunk.

@suchlikekey568 said in [Mega Thread] Balancing Exploration and Player Combat - Part 5:

Looking forward to the DLC and the continuing grind to Legend (solo).

Back to the reality of SoT! Today i could not complete a voyage without PvP becoming an issue. One Island left to solve a riddle... One sloop, 2 man crew, refused to back off. Every time i came back they would show up to engage in PvP. Knowing full well i had no treasure. Even told them in game chat (yes finally someone in game chat) that i just needed to finish this voyage and would even give them the chest... NOPE! Took them out to sea, scuttled the ship, and left the game.

So no completed voyage after a few hours of playing today... What do you accomplish if you are a crew that just goes around, knowing full well there is no reward for sinking an empty sloop, other than ruining someones experience in the game?

Good luck Rare figuring out a solution to this exact reason why no one i know plays this game anymore. I will continue to play, but have no expectations at this point other than to have a PvP encounter that ruins my experience.

Please, if you want people to come back, BALANCE THE SERVERS based on players game play / traits. Not saying in anyway to offer only PvE servers, but put these hardcore PvP players with other crews with the same mentality.

I feel pretty confident, with the PvP in its current state, that it will take FOREVER to see legendary with a solo sloop. Yah its "the hardcore" game mode, i get it, but these guys are absolutely ruining the experience and forcing, it appears, people to leave the game period.

Back to trying to play during off peak hours and hoping servers to avoid some of these crews...

This is worth leaving here, a point we've been trying to make that has ultimately been ignored about the nature of PvP and finishing Voyages. Whether or not it would be good to push for more frivolous PvP... or incentivize PvE over PvP.

I also agree with balancing the servers based on traits/skill.