Pvp is ruining SOT

@savagetwinky said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

@cotu42 said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

The design requirements... you mean the Game Design of the game. Why people like playing it, yes it meets those requirements. I have also never stated that the Game Design as it is now is perfect either or not up for discussion on how to improve.

Ok so we agree that if the game meets some requirements doesn't mean its good. Or that the requirements make any real sense. So we can also come to an agreement that using "it meets requirements" to counter an argument is pretty meaningless?

What matters is describing the requirements and the benefits of having them.

If you make claims, back them up. As we do not see eye to eye on what you are claiming.

I did back them up. You didn't counter it with anything meaningful... your own perspective on the community or the issues they are having. The usage of claiming someone's opinion and perception is anecdotal without providing hard facts to prove them wrong. This is a forum and the conversion heavily revolves around perception and opinion... so we shouldn't be mistaking statements as facts, and calling something anecdotal again is another pretty meaningless argument. Because that would suggest playing the game and interacting with the community produces unreliable information...

Concede? We were battling? I thought we were having a reasonable conversation about the game, but clearly you are only interested in winning.

How is conceding "losing"? That's what happens in a conversation if you argue against something that you might be wrong about..

Btw. I am not conceding as there are always design flaws in every single game in the world. Video Games and especially multiplayer games are always able to improve.

World of Warcraft, which was an amazing game when it was released but had so many flaws within its game design. Though still millions of players played the game and it has dominated an entire genre for a very long time. Extremely flawed and shattered records. Having flaws in a game is not the same as: All the veterans are leaving, All the good PvPers are leaving, etc. Games and especially like how this game is setup are a never ending cycle of change, with the goal to improve.
Like I have stated, I do not have the same point of view as yours.

Wow! way to concede while also trying to walk it back... Unlike WoW rare stopped reporting their numbers. All games have flaws but let's not pretend WoW and SoT flaws are even remotely in the same league. One game went to crush records... the other game is a massive deflation of player engagement and discontent. Community engagement, widespread and reoccurring complaints... are all evidence to suggest the reality is closer to the way I describe it. There is some real potential with this game, but the only people who are finding it are the ones that really are forgiving and willing to slog through the game's flaws to find the masterpiece underneath.

Well, we disagree on this as I believe that Athena voyages actually fit the bill from a design perspective.

This is pretty much the PvP scenario, which I try to illustrate in my story that you so kindly called dumb.

1. People starting an Athena's claim themselves the Defenders and holders of the loot
2. People can analyze your movement and realize you are doing an Athena's
3. People can decide that they want to be the Attackers and are after the loot
4. Engagement happens one side loses the other wins
   4.1) Defender is victorious and keeps all the loot.
   4.2) Attacker is victorious and grabs the loot
   4.2.1) Cages are left behind as they have no value
   4.2.2) They took the cages
5. Attackers/Defenders rush back
   5.1) If Attackers decided to come back go back to 4.
   5.2.1) Defenders rushed back and engage Attackers - head back to 4. If 4.2.1 - Cages were lost and Athená's quest failed.
   5.2.2) Defenders rushed back and head to where they sunk. If 4.2.1 Cages are recovered and they continue on their way, else they might still try 5.2.1 or Athena's quest failed.

This is a way to look at it as a design centered around contested loot. If you do not agree that this is contested loot our definitions clearly differ, as for me contested means out on the open waters and can already be in the hands of other pirates or only obtainable by them (requiring one to analyze the ships movements before striking). There is just one major problem with this design as this is one of the scenario's where the engagement actually took place at a right time in the voyage. Be too early and the attackers get nothing and might even ruin the fun for the defenders (loss of crates). Same thing goes with being too late. There usually 3 sweet spots timing wise: before they head to one of the three outposts stops most groups have: Merchant 1, Merchant 2, Athena delivery.

Ok... just because it's in the open sea doesn't mean it's contested. It can be.. but that's not the same thing. To be contested requires 2 people fighting over it to make it. That's why you can do a fort uncontested... because no one showed up to stop you. It doesn't become contested until someone decides to do point number 4 and that means departing from what your doing now, to get take their loot.

contested

Definition, Synonyms, Translations of contested by The Free Dictionary

said:

1. A struggle for superiority or victory between rivals: England's contest with Spain for domination of the seas.
2. A competition, especially one in which entrants perform separately and are rated by judges: a spelling contest.

Now let's take a look at Athena's... if 2 people are doing an Athena... the prize is at the end of the voyage. No one has any strong feelings over the loot half the time, many players just leave it on the island because of the time investment... If the loot is unimportant to both of them until the end... what is the point of contesting someone elses? Its mostly just because its boring and people dislike athenas...

Whats the result of this? Well if someone acquired the athena crates than someone else lost something of significantly more value. The value of the crate as part of an objective for someone else and had absolutely next to no value for the thief.

The game in its current form is being able to contest everything, including someone's ability to finish a timed event or finish a long voyage. It completely relies on players to contest loot though... and when thats not a FUN experience they just kill everything. It has nothing to do about rewards really.

This causes a big risk that even in victory the attackers receive nothing and if victorious as a defender you currently just get to keep what you already had... A bounty system is something that would be something to reward the victor.

And it's still a band-aid for building an incentive to get to 4. In order for the PvP to be fun and not a gank fest, you have to build some structure in for contesting loot without relying on players to do it.

A bounty system.. will create a gank on-site mentality. You're still trying to fix a lopsided opportunity cost of going out of your way to kill someone... because they might be doing an Athena's and leaving everything behind or doing some commendation event... they might not have loot because its unimportant. Your not solving the problem of unimportant loot, your not creating incentive to contest loot, or build a scenario/voyage that constructs contested loot... What you're doing with bounties, is skipping any important loot had as an incentive for PvP and rewarding ganking.

I know! The solution to ships either not having loot because its unimportant or someone just hasn't picked it up yet... is to not need it!

Jimmy - So what will we be pirating?

Salt and tears my boy!

The fact that you called my experience dumb, while I was using it as an illustration. Came over as disrespectful to me. Especially 'cause you base your words on your own experience. Therefore this will be my last response and is the reason I did not engage on all the talking points. Hope you enjoy the seas and may the wind be firmly in your back.

The "fact" that I called your experience dumb? Care to substantiate that claim?

@savagetwinky said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

@cotu42 said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

• snip * dumb story about something interesting that happened.
  // Adjusted by you, as I had an illustration of my point by sharing one of my experiences, the story.

Nobody is suggesting interesting things don't happen....

See the bold part! Dumb story, my story, my experience.

Actually I agree with one aspect and never denied it. That games can be improved over time and like all games has flaws and areas to improve. I however totally disagree if you state this game is badly designed and that the core design is flawed. I for one support RARE in their mentality towards the game and believe the core mechanics are actually extremely solid and actually is main consensus go read reviews and people cracking down on the game: Solid foundation, Much potential are the up sides, lack of content and variety in feedback loops are the main criticisms. Haven't I been the one suggesting actual in-game adjustments to improve something I believe could be improved... I by no means concede to your view.

Contested loot according to you will always be non-contested till someone decides to do PvP and since RARE cannot control what people do...No way to do what you want, unless if you are talking about forced PvP in PvE voyages we totally disagree on where this game should head. I already have some issues with the 'other crew' requirement for bilge rat adventures, as it's forced: Skeleton Ships patch did a better job at it though, so they are already improving.

Btw. the World of Warcraft vanilla issues were way bigger than that of Sea of Thieves, it is clear you didn't play at launch or did not do Vanilla Raids or smaller group 5/10 man instances. Go read their old patch notes if you want to know or look at role restrictions disregarding that you had multiple talent trees for different roles.

Sea of Thieves has done very well, minus the CCB patch, to deliver high quality work. The foundation of this game is extremely solid and has been handled properly for the majority.

Whether it can captivate a player base as large as World of Warcraft, no I don't think the market for this type of game is that big at the moment. Do I believe it can be large enough to survive and maybe even boom once it gets more content, for sure.

Though why I am trying to explain, it is clearly that you are not interested in moving your point of view. You are still even unwilling with me explaining that your valid experience gives you a valid opinion that it still isn't therefore true, but it remains based on anecdotal evidence till you get evidence that you can show. Though you wanted the proof and and a fact to prove my claim. So, thought I would show you the adjustment you made to the post when quoting me and therefore the evidence to back-up my claim.

Thats why u need a person on the crows nest.
Sot is boring with no pvp.
Whats the point playinng a game that does not give tension fear of losing stuff?
Whats the point of sailing with ur friends just to catch chicken

@cotu42 said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

See the bold part! Dumb story, my story, my experience.

Clearly, you also have an issue with your sense of humor. I called the story dumb not because your experience was dumb, it just wasn't necessary and I'm not sure what the point was. Plus in the same quote, I literally state the contents are interesting... Why would you think I meant your experience was dumb?

Actually I agree with one aspect and never denied it. That games can be improved over time and like all games has flaws and areas to improve. I however totally disagree if you state this game is badly designed and that the core design is flawed. I for one support RARE in their mentality towards the game and believe the core mechanics are actually extremely solid and actually is main consensus go read reviews and people cracking down on the game: Solid foundation, Much potential are the up sides, lack of content and variety in feedback loops are the main criticisms. Haven't I been the one suggesting actual in-game adjustments to improve something I believe could be improved... I by no means concede to your view.

You have to make up your mind, you either see my view as potentially valid or you don't. Your taking a wishy-washy stance to backpedal arguing against this game has some big flaws that have led to a fairly obvious negative response... and trying to explain it as well all games have flaws.

And yes, there is a consensus that the gameplay mechanics are solid.. not the entire game design.

Contested loot according to you will always be non-contested till someone decides to do PvP and since RARE cannot control what people do...No way to do what you want, unless if you are talking about forced PvP in PvE voyages we totally disagree on where this game should head. I already have some issues with the 'other crew' requirement for bilge rat adventures, as it's forced: Skeleton Ships patch did a better job at it though, so they are already improving.

Contesting something means fighting over it. If someone has something and your choosing to fight them for the fight your not contesting the thing your just fighting.

I've never once talked about forcing PvP.

What is a fact is that in a game about piracy, it fails to deliver loot as a meaningful goal during the moment to moment gameplay. It started out that way because everyone needed it... and that was when it was the most fun because people would do voyages and attack each other when the opportunity arose.

Btw. the World of Warcraft vanilla issues were way bigger than that of Sea of Thieves, it is clear you didn't play at launch or did not do Vanilla Raids or smaller group 5/10 man instances. Go read their old patch notes if you want to know or look at role restrictions disregarding that you had multiple talent trees for different roles.

You obviously didn't play vanilla at launch... because the game was a massive hit due to the incredibly well-designed theme park that nailed the reward structure... WoW, hooked people because of its polish, its story, the depth of the mechanics, the sheer amount of content... and they made the content feel meaningful for 100s of hours. Its not like raids/instances had heavy roles until much later in WoW's lifespan for the vast majority. If you had actually played wow since day 1 you would have known that. Not being the most convenient for putting together a group for side/late game mechanics was an inconvience or something you never worried about until you were months into the game.It is a @#!$ing insurmountable difference compared to lots of people hitting a wall after an hour and saying 'that's all there is, 3 fetch quests and a lot of sailing and some really great core mechanics!'

Sea of Thieves has done very well, minus the CCB patch, to deliver high quality work. The foundation of this game is extremely solid and has been handled properly for the majority.

Oh got any proof on the claim that the game has been handled propertly by the majority? Joe Neat has already apologisied for the low quality buggy builds they keep releasing...

Whether it can captivate a player base as large as World of Warcraft, no I don't think the market for this type of game is that big at the moment. Do I believe it can be large enough to survive and maybe even boom once it gets more content, for sure.

Just no...

Content isn't going to save this game. The core game loop needs to be figured out into something that is either meaningful or can keep players engaged for the time commitment sailing requires.

They'll need to redesign the game for PvE... they need a deep and meaningful progression.. full stop. And they can build it on a theme park or a sandbox both requiring a lot of redesigns. For a themepark... thats not happening, so the next best thing is a sand box... they need much more depth/complexity in how you can express yourself in the game world. This is really where the major complaints with the game came from... it wasn't a direct conflict game like fortnite so people see it as more of a MMO/sandbox of sorts and were looking at the lack of content/meaningful progression as the problem.

Or they can embrace the PvP side, where everyone agrees the core mechanics shine and try to build a more complex version of capture the flag where loot is paramount and the game is a rat race for loot and build on emergent voyages with PvPvE... which is what we have now technically speaking, its just poorly designed not fully realized and the value of loot is diminished greatly by certain design choices. Loot is the only thing that engages PvP apart from blood thirst and trolling.. And bounties build on blood thirst/trolling behavior.

Though why I am trying to explain, it is clearly that you are not interested in moving your point of view. You are still even unwilling with me explaining that your valid experience gives you a valid opinion that it still isn't therefore true, but it remains based on anecdotal evidence till you get evidence that you can show. Though you wanted the proof and and a fact to prove my claim. So, thought I would show you the adjustment you made to the post when quoting me and therefore the evidence to back-up my claim.

It's not anecdotal. Its a 66 on Metacritic. There was a massive uproar in about content that forced rare to pivot their plans to push content out. Which Joe Neat already admitted that there have been some issues with the quality of releases, or some ideas that weren't fully fleshed out like the new UI because of the rush. And even with the updates.. there hasn't been any added depth to the content.

Not to mention I can count the number of players in the discord communities playing the game right now vs when they had 100s of active crews in the reddit discord and many active communities... you can count the crews on one hand... and there aren't as many active communities or they are expanding into other games. I've mentioned discord already which you seem to not think is evidence... are you going to try to suggest all these players that disappeared are using the Xbox app LFG tool primarily now? Also another point you should take a moment to check, how many PLs are there in game? If you say plenty... that means there is a high propability you'll be matched with 0.46% of the player base... so where are the other 99.54%?

So sure you can say lots of people play, but its hard to argue that the communities didn't nose dive, especially since alliances were released. Again I don't have hard numbers and couldn't tell you if it was a 40%, 60% or 90% reduction of the community but its definitely not insignificant. And discord populations is not anecdotal. There are enough people in there to show what's happening at a higher level to the community. I don't believe the game is designed well... I'm using the communities initial reaction and subsequence reactions to point out something isn't resonating with players... it's becoming a niche title... and the greatest ship mechanics we've seen in a while is going to be relegated to extremely monotonous fetch quests with trolling PvP behavior create some excitement.

@rainn-flutterrs said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

@erison-kyle PVP and griefing are 2 different things

Then explain ur ideal Pvp scenario then?

@rainn-flutterrs I like how you have to label everyone who is better than you as "sweaty". Sound to me like you are the one sweating .

People act like this game has a fanbase the size of something like Fortnite... There are 494 people watching this game currently on Twitch, and another 116 watching it on Mixer.

Compare that to other games, and that works out to about 500 people playing right now. Not millions, not thousands...

Compare that to a few weeks ago when Twitch alone, for Sea of Thieves, had about 1400 viewers at this same time of day. That will likely (hopefully) go up as the day progresses...but that is not a good number and is indicative of a game that is beginning to flounder.

Older titles like Subnautica are sitting at 3300 viewers right now.

The "numbers" we can see for this game have not gone up since launch. They also have not "remained the same" since launch. They have gone down immensely. If that is not a good indication that what is being done is not working, I can't help you at this point. You are lost in a delusion that is likely going to disappoint you severely.

What I can tell you is that the reason for that decline has absolutely nothing to do with PvP. It has everything to do with the PvE component of this game. PvP has had very little wrong with it up to this point. Cursed Cannonballs totally break the "level playing field" promised by Rare by throwing RNG into the mix in a much larger way, but those cursed cannonballs are not that game-changing unless the crew using them are just terrible and spam sleep or jig balls until you sink. That is no different than a galleon crew of four people boarding a sloop because they have failed to sink it 3 times (that happened to us the other day with our sloop).

If you do not want PvP, then choose to avoid it... but requesting it be somehow "gimped" or removed from the game is just silly, and would drive the last nail into the coffin of this game. Saying that it is the cause for the decline in this game's player population is also just as silly.

@aod-fluid said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

People act like this game has a fanbase the size of something like Fortnite... There are 494 people watching this game currently on Twitch, and another 116 watching it on Mixer.

Compare that to other games, and that works out to about 500 people playing right now. Not millions, not thousands...

Compare that to a few weeks ago when Twitch alone, for Sea of Thieves, had about 1400 viewers at this same time of day. That will likely (hopefully) go up as the day progresses...but that is not a good number and is indicative of a game that is beginning to flounder.

Older titles like Subnautica are sitting at 3300 viewers right now.

The "numbers" we can see for this game have not gone up since launch. They also have not "remained the same" since launch. They have gone down immensely. If that is not a good indication that what is being done is not working, I can't help you at this point. You are lost in a delusion that is likely going to disappoint you severely.

What I can tell you is that the reason for that decline has absolutely nothing to do with PvP. It has everything to do with the PvE component of this game. PvP has had very little wrong with it up to this point. Cursed Cannonballs totally break the "level playing field" promised by Rare by throwing RNG into the mix in a much larger way, but those cursed cannonballs are not that game-changing unless the crew using them are just terrible and spam sleep or jig balls until you sink. That is no different than a galleon crew of four people boarding a sloop because they have failed to sink it 3 times (that happened to us the other day with our sloop).

If you do not want PvP, then choose to avoid it... but requesting it be somehow "gimped" or removed from the game is just silly, and would drive the last nail into the coffin of this game. Saying that it is the cause for the decline in this game's player population is also just as silly.

But but but... this is all anecdotal evidence, twitch isn't good to gauge because the game is boring to play for large swaths of time, so equally boring to watch! Use the youtube where you can get highlights of fun moments!

(I agree)

Except for saying there is nothing wrong with PvP. There is nothing wrong with PvP mechanically... the game has an amazingly solid foundation. The problem is the game puts too much emphasis on PvE/sandbox that is shallow and relies solely on players to go out of their exploit the glorious PvP. The PvP component is poorly structured.

@savagetwinky said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

@aod-fluid said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

People act like this game has a fanbase the size of something like Fortnite... There are 494 people watching this game currently on Twitch, and another 116 watching it on Mixer.

Compare that to other games, and that works out to about 500 people playing right now. Not millions, not thousands...

Compare that to a few weeks ago when Twitch alone, for Sea of Thieves, had about 1400 viewers at this same time of day. That will likely (hopefully) go up as the day progresses...but that is not a good number and is indicative of a game that is beginning to flounder.

Older titles like Subnautica are sitting at 3300 viewers right now.

The "numbers" we can see for this game have not gone up since launch. They also have not "remained the same" since launch. They have gone down immensely. If that is not a good indication that what is being done is not working, I can't help you at this point. You are lost in a delusion that is likely going to disappoint you severely.

What I can tell you is that the reason for that decline has absolutely nothing to do with PvP. It has everything to do with the PvE component of this game. PvP has had very little wrong with it up to this point. Cursed Cannonballs totally break the "level playing field" promised by Rare by throwing RNG into the mix in a much larger way, but those cursed cannonballs are not that game-changing unless the crew using them are just terrible and spam sleep or jig balls until you sink. That is no different than a galleon crew of four people boarding a sloop because they have failed to sink it 3 times (that happened to us the other day with our sloop).

If you do not want PvP, then choose to avoid it... but requesting it be somehow "gimped" or removed from the game is just silly, and would drive the last nail into the coffin of this game. Saying that it is the cause for the decline in this game's player population is also just as silly.

But but but... this is all anecdotal evidence, twitch isn't good to gauge because the game is boring to play for large swaths of time, so equally boring to watch! Use the youtube where you can get highlights of fun moments!

(I agree)

Except for saying there is nothing wrong with PvP. There is nothing wrong with PvP mechanically... the game has an amazingly solid foundation. The problem is the game puts too much emphasis on PvE/sandbox that is shallow and relies solely on players to go out of their exploit the glorious PvP. The PvP component is poorly structured.

PvE or PvP? :P

It is not even shallow. It is so small and so insignificant in my experience that it is really more of a puddle... its just 100 miles across.

Speaking of PvP, have you done the skeleton ships since the event ended? We did the other day for the first time since the event. Completely not worth doing. Not worth even considering doing.

@aod-fluid I have done the ships but its mostly just to get the skull fort back. Currently they are just in the way.

The PvE shallow. But PvP while simple has a bit of depth from ship mechanics, planning, positioning, cannon shots, boarding, teamwork...

@savagetwinky said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

@aod-fluid I have done the ships but its mostly just to get the skull fort back. Currently they are just in the way.

The PvE shallow. But PvP while simple has a bit of depth from ship mechanics, planning, positioning, cannon shots, boarding, teamwork...

Was wondering because at the end of your post you said: "The PvP component is poorly structured."

Though, I kind of agree with that too... Ship to ship combat is great... would be better without cursed cannonballs. Hand to hand combat is just lame. Gunplay is pretty bad as well, probably because of server lag. Hit registration leaves a lot to be desired.

@aod-fluid said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

@savagetwinky said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

@aod-fluid I have done the ships but its mostly just to get the skull fort back. Currently they are just in the way.

The PvE shallow. But PvP while simple has a bit of depth from ship mechanics, planning, positioning, cannon shots, boarding, teamwork...

Was wondering because at the end of your post you said: "The PvP component is poorly structured."

Though, I kind of agree with that too... Ship to ship combat is great... would be better without cursed cannonballs. Hand to hand combat is just lame. Gunplay is pretty bad as well, probably because of server lag. Hit registration leaves a lot to be desired.

I mean the design of the game that the combat mechanics is nestled in... I'm completely fine with the gunplay/cqc/ship combat, the combination of the 3 provides a rewarding experience. It's how 2 ships get together to do that and how reliable it is for players to stand and fight. There is no PvP that naturally occurs in the game outside of forts... everything depends on a player feeling like going out of his way to gank someone, and that someone not running for 3+ hours.

LOL

You'd ruin SoT in a heartbeat if you had your way, which is really where the irony lies.

It's a pirate game... and one of the very BEST things in it is that when PvE is getting lame, someone shows up to remind you that anything you have is preciously temporary.

Should have been keeping a sharp lookout, and should have parked in a better defensive position.

Will you learn? Or, will you make excuses?

@rainn-flutterrs said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

@treefittymonsta A situation where it's balanced and I have a chance. Also I don't really like being hunted down while in a sloop to where I can't even do anything, even after I don't have anything they still do it to be scummy. I just don't like griefing.

There is no way to know u have nothing without sinking you. I have sunk many people who exclaiming but we have nothing. Then when I sink them 5 skulls and couple chests float up.

@enf0rcer haha. There are days when I am the snake as well. Lol. But I do draw the line with what I perceive as griefing.

Everyone wants easy mode. Don't sink me, don't chase me, make it easier to get PL and achievements, make it balanced so I can take on the best PVP'ers or bigger ships, make pve servers....and on and on and on. Anyone who attacks me is toxic. Anyone who chases me is toxic. Anyone who sinks me when I have no loot is toxic.

PVE minded players and their demands have destroyed this game. I find it hard to believe there are any PVP'ers left to "grief" you. My crew and most of the people i know have stopped playing.

9 people online on my friends list ( all who I met in SoT) . Not one of them playing SoT.

@enf0rcer

The one thing I think you're a bit wrong about in part2 is that PvP needs progression. It doesn't. It needs a ranking system, that goes up/down depending on your rank. This is mostly for matchmaking. PvP generally stands on its own when the gameplay is engaging and there are a clear objective players fight over. Currently, its kind of loot. It's kind of not though which is the problem. As this is an equality based game the PvP is more similar to an arena than sandbox games like dayz/ark. Your not building anything or trying to progress your character in any way, your just running loot back to outposts until someone tries to stop you. The game is just to shallow in the PvE/Sandbox for anyone to make the claim it's a "make your own adventure". And the PvP lacks focus on a clear goal for players to fight over, and the way the PvPvE mix is built it kind of undermines people doing PvE/Athenas/Events.

If you put a progression system on PvP then loot will have an EOL and we'll end up with what we got today. It's not about rewarding PvP... it's building a rewarding experience for both sides to keep engaging in it and building that experience around loot. This game isn't a skinner box, rewards aren't going to cut it.