In-universe way to disincentivize trolling

  • I don't agree with the idea of making worlds PVE or turning off combat. Yes, this is SOT and yes people should be allowed to steal and attack. It's the threat of these and the requirements to avoid it that make some of the highs of this game so good.

    However. Trolling is a problem. It serves no purpose, it is not fun. The act of trolling isn't even fun for the trolls - only the result of denying other people their fun. Not only is this not really accurate to the pirate life, it's clearly against the spirit that Rare is trying to enable. Right now, there's no penalty to trolling. There are no negative consequences whatsoever. In fact, there are only disincentives to following the pirate code. That seems a bit backward. So how can we change the calculus?

    My first thought is bounties. Bounties that can only be called against players who have killed you repeatedly: targeted, not random. As this bounty goes up, the danger for the person goes up. First, their bounty gets displayed next to their name. Then, when it gets high enough, they get the equivalent of the Reaper's Mark put on them (the player themselves) with their bounty total right on the map. Chase em down for gold and glory. Not only does this gamify the act of retribution, it makes it risky to keep trolling. Everyone know where you are and can avoid you, and your bounty only goes down when another player kills you. At the same time, this could be a legitimate point of pride for crews that just want to PVP. They've got a huge bounty, but they still get away!

    But there are two problems: 1) it can be gamed. Get two ships and they can just "farm" bounty level and 2) it still relies on other players to actually kill the player, which is hard when no one else wants to even engage. 1) can be solved with timers and cooldowns, essentially.

    But 2) requires something deeper and more integrated: world responses to bounties. As in: what if as you cause more havoc in the Sea of Thieves, the world automatically and invisibly starts to move against you. First, what if the game invisibly tracks your PVP aggressiveness (we have this tech from Arena already) and contributes that to your bounty total behind the scenes in addition to other players actively adding to it. Then, at a certain level of bounty again, enemies start spawning. Again, to provide a risk to this gameplay style that currently doesn't really exist now.

    First, you see more megalodons. Behind the scenes, their aggressiveness toward this specific ship is amplified. Then you get skeleton ship spawns out of nowhere. And at a certain level of bounty (before the getting on the map thing), you get a special gnarly megalodon that is extremely large and aggressive and ONLY targeted at ships belonging to pirates with high bounties. So this will be a very specific thing that will prevent troll crews from being effective in multiple ways. BUT, it's actually still kind of a cool thing for crews that just want to be aggressive. They have to balance how much they go out and attack people or risk being sunk. They have to take breaks more often to turn in stolen chests and the like. And they can farm these creatures if they want to for the meat and loot. Again, these are all good because they give benefits to the aggressive players for doing things OTHER THAN killing people while actively preventing them from griefing in an in-universe way.

    I think this solution maintains the threat of PVP, maintains the joy of playing PVP for those who want to, but also makes it challenging to play only that way. It doesn't take away the threat of other players from those who want to PVE, but it gives you some tangible responses to them that don't just boil down to "git gud".

    Dang I wrote a lot. Oh well. Long and scattered thoughts. But I wanted to share them. I'm sure others have come up with better ideas since.

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  • YES
    We definitely need this. It would make the game so much enjoyable, and the trolls who just happened to get lucky with finding an inexperienced crew will likely crack under the pressure of Dangerous PVE encounters.
    Another way of increasing the likelyhood of a bounty holder being caught would be to tie anyone who has tried claiming the bounty/contributed to the bounty to be tied with that crew for server merges, and prioritize servers with bounty holders to be the first to recieve players who are logging on.

    Trolling is definitely a serious part of this game that needs to be addressed, and this would be an excellent system.

  • @minor-architect Oo yea, that's a good point with server migrations and matchmaking in general. Having a better way to track player tendencies will go a long way to crafting experiences that everyone can be happy with.

  • I like this idea, bounty hunting could become potentially useful to stop trolling.

  • A common idea, that's been floating around since the alpha. I hope it's implemented one day....

  • Sure, it's already a much better idea than safe spaces and PVE only servers! There should totally be more consequences to encounters.

  • @chieftommeh 100%. We've been talking about this since Alpha. BUT, I think we finally have most of the tools we need to do it. We have the stats from Arena. We have the AI threats that could conceivably be used in discrete and targeted ways in Megs and skel ships and even Skelly lords. We have reaper's mark.

    I think we are finally just a step away.

  • a bounty system can be nice. though it has the potential to be exploited, it can be a great addition to the game if implemented correctly and carefully.

    for example, if aggressive players are to more likely encounter PvE enemies, this could be an issue if players actually want to encounter more PvE enemies and kill people on purpose (hunters of the shrouded ghost). or if they had certain levels applied to their bounty, players will continue to kill other players just to see how high their bounty can get and how long it can be maintained.

    my suggestion is a simple smoke pillar from a ship that had been sunk. other players will know that a crew had been sunk by another in the area. people can respond by either avoiding said area or seeing if they can challenge the victor themselves. the more ships that sink in the area, the more smoke and thus the further one can see it.

    trolls would be less likely to encounter any more ships for a time after a battle or they will meet another ship that is probably more prepared then they are for battle. players who have simply defended themselves have a chance to get away; that is if they are not greedy for the spoils. this would solve camping too, since players will know that another crew had been sunk in the area and would not fall for the same fate, which means campers only get the one chance.

  • @cyrribrae

    I'll just hit you with the holes I see in your idea and see what you come up with.

    First let me tell you that I like the idea of a bounty system, just now how you would implement it. The holes not withstanding.

    You say that the player who repeatedly kills a player gets a bounty?

    What stops me from trolling a ship? Grabbing their treasure and throwing it over board. They will have to kill me to stop me. I just keep getting onto their boat or try to and they will have to repeatedly kill me. I just wait till they have a high enough bounty and kill them.

    Your idea of the world causing PvE events to happen will work against you.

    I play with 4 different crews. If we can actually grab 2 ships on a server. We can just repeatedly kill players to get the PvE Events to spawn and kill those for free money and commendation. Absolutely no incentive to stop killing players, you only made more incentives.

    It also doesn't stop regular players on PvE servers taking advantage of this and just doing it to get free commendations and loot.

    If your solution is for the PvE to not drop loot, then your idea is already dead by your own hands.

    Again not against a bounty system. Its just not possible with this game's mechanical structure. It would need a much larger foundation to be even remotely possible.

    Also your idea is mainly in place to prevent or hinder PvP not just "trolling".

    You might think trolls don't have fun being trolls but they do have fun. They are definitely having fun. You have all the tools in your arsenal to defend yourself against these types of players.

    But if you can figure out an actual solution then score broski. Good luck

  • @xultanis-dragon Yea, good questions!

    1. So trolling a ship (such as by spending a ton of time on it to spawn camp, taking treasure that you didn't dig up, dropping it into the ocean repeatedly, etc.) are all actions that can be tracked by the system. Now if you stay there and do nothing, or even assist the crew, that wouldn't really be trolling and generally wouldn't be killing you. Now if you kept tracking them to just chill on their ship, it's certainly possible that they could repeatedly kill you until they got a bounty. But that's kind of a long con, and I think I would be 100% ok with that trolling.

    2. If you're legitimately PVPing, there's no need to change your playstyle. You're going around taking on crews that want to fight you or stealing goods from those trying to get away. That will be measured and you will eventually get a bounty. But it won't be onerous to begin with. If you die in that process, then that bounty will reset normally and you'll almost never notice. If you DON'T die, then the challenge isn't enough, so the world will scale to you to provide more to do. The only thing is that you have to take more breaks from your successful sprees, which I think is a positive for the other crews.

    Yes, some people will take it as a challenge to go as over the top as possible. That's why the AI threats are needed, to distract and impeded their progress from rolling over everyone. Until they die by another person (or some other trigger like finishing voyages, for example, which currently has no value if you don't turn anything in), they will be dogged and harassed. To avoid that, they need to engage in something different for a while.

    1. Can you farm this? Kind of. Personally, I have no problem with that if you're not actively seeking out other crews. And, you don't need to seek out other crews while you're farming these AI threats - you'd overburden your crew very quickly. Balance is key.

    We can also mitigate some of this using a countdown and timer system. If you keep targeting one crew whether for farming or trolling, your bounty gain will rise quickly but then will taper quickly with repeated killing. So, it'll overwhelm you quickly if you're trolling, AND it won't benefit you to keep killing the same people if that's what you actually want. Same thing for farming bounties. Each kill of the same bounty person will decrease the percentage of reward. After a certain point, killing people from the same crew with high bounties will net you nothing anymore. In this way, we deincentivize and make it hard to grief the same crew over and over for any reason (again, if you're evenly matched or doing normal PVP, it will rarely ever be a problem or even something you notice).

    All of this runs against a timer in the background. It should persist, so you can't just log off and do it again on a new server. Stick to your own business and your bounty can decrease over time.


    So to summarize, this system is not meant to punish PVP. People who do PVP WILL get some benefits out of this. Absolutely! I would never want to eliminate that aspect from the game entirely. I think it's great to reward people for playing the game that way. However, this system would make it costly for people who do it mindlessly or in bad faith.

    Trolls like to troll because they get results and it's easy. So, this system frustrates that. PVPers do it because it's a challenge and it's fun. This system enhances that. PVEers want to not be dogged and griefed. This system won't entirely eliminate it, but it makes it unsustainable and unprofitable which will undoubtedly decrease its occurrences. That's what we want. Most of these tools already exist in the game. It doesn't take adding many new systems. It doesn't fundamentally change the way we play the game, it just adds more depth to make it IMO better.

    Edit: But you're right, I don't think this is a perfect solution by any means. I appreciate feedback and complaints, because I think thinking through and trying to solve these problems makes it more likely that Rare can take a version of this idea and implement it.

  • @mysticdragon297 said in In-universe way to disincentivize trolling:

    for example, if aggressive players are to more likely encounter PvE enemies, this could be an issue if players actually want to encounter more PvE enemies and kill people on purpose (hunters of the shrouded ghost). or if they had certain levels applied to their bounty, players will continue to kill other players just to see how high their bounty can get and how long it can be maintained.

    my suggestion is a simple smoke pillar from a ship that had been sunk. other players will know that a crew had been sunk by another in the area. people can respond by either avoiding said area or seeing if they can challenge the victor themselves. the more ships that sink in the area, the more smoke and thus the further one can see it.

    Yea, I think there are some potential areas where people can exploit the mechanics. I kind of address this in the other post, but generally, I don't see this is as a problem. I think it's actually one of the benefits of the system. We don't want to eliminate PVP entirely, just make it something that doesn't so easily veer into griefing. I don't mind if you want to take on a few players so you can start trying to farm megs. But if you fight through megs to keep harassing the same crew, then the world will have to bring you down.

    I like the smoke idea, but I don't think it'll solve the problem. Knowing that someone is griefing on the map doesn't really help when your objectives are in those places. It still doesn't result in anything negative to the campers or provide any meaningful disincentives to their behavior. We need something that clearly dissuades them from trolling AND that can actively impede them if they keep trying to do it anyway. That's my thought anyway.

    But you might be right that more subtle interventions can be effective, too.

  • @cyrribrae honestly I think if someone gets sunk by another Crew a one square radius should be highlighted on everyone's map in the lobby for 30 minutes to let them know someone died to a crew

  • If this particular bounty system were in the game, I’d sink other ships just to increase my chances of finding the shrouded ghost.

  • @fast-bike94 said in In-universe way to disincentivize trolling:

    @cyrribrae honestly I think if someone gets sunk by another Crew a one square radius should be highlighted on everyone's map in the lobby for 30 minutes to let them know someone died to a crew

    Yea, I just read something about sending up smoke from a wreck. The problem with this is that it STILL doesn't disincentivize trolling. So the campers (if they're not just chasing down the other ships) lost the element of surprise, well if they're still where you need to be to complete your Tall Tale or voyage and they're still better PVPers.. no problem has been solved. In fact, it could potentially lead to more trolling, as you can immediately tell where a crew was - and maybe are likely to return.

    @they-sank said in In-universe way to disincentivize trolling:

    If this particular bounty system were in the game, I’d sink other ships just to increase my chances of finding the shrouded ghost.

    Yep. And I think that's a legitimate way to use this system. I have no problem with PVP. If you're going to kill a few more people to increase your PVE world spawns, awesome. There's no reason to go overboard with killing if that's all you want - at a certain point, you WILL die repeatedly and you'll never kill the shrouded ghost.

    Additionally, if you get REALLY high, the only megs that are spawning will be these gnarly aggressive ones (I mean, I treat it like an easter egg on the level of the red sea. Something that everyone tries to check out once or twice, then decides that suiciding isn't the most long term fun.) rather than the ones you want to farm.

    Look if you want to kill some people for the PVE spawn, that's fine with me. If you want to team up with another ship and farm each other for bounty.. I'm personally ok with that. (Of course, the cooldown makes it less effective over time). The world will make it so that your focus is on the PVE, rather than (solely) on other players, so the inconvenience to other ships will be minimal and fleeting. It's still risky to be around those PVP-heavy crews, but you might at least get half an hour of peace to rush through your mission and turn in.

    @Mouse-N-Keybord Haha, I can see that here :p. You enjoy trolling because you know it causes a reaction, if not from the target then from your friends. I don't think trolling in itself should be banned, but when it prevents other people from even having the potential to have fun - that seems silly is all.

  • @cyrribrae said in In-universe way to disincentivize trolling:

    I don't agree with the idea of making worlds PVE or turning off combat. Yes, this is SOT and yes people should be allowed to steal and attack. It's the threat of these and the requirements to avoid it that make some of the highs of this game so good.

    However. Trolling is a problem. It serves no purpose, it is not fun. The act of trolling isn't even fun for the trolls - only the result of denying other people their fun.

    I love trolling! It's the best part in this game! Lost me after you assumed people don't enjoy picking fun at other gamers expense.

  • Rather than turn all pve threats magically against these ships and making pvp inevitably end up with the odds stacked too much against these ships, i would prefer them to do things like prevent sale at the outposts in a region when players are sunk there, and have specific “navy ships” that target thesr players and “navy guards” that would defend outposts from the people barred from sale there.

    I do agree that repercussions for some actions makes sense, just not sure behind the scenes rng favoritism is the way to go, unless its very subtle even at its most biased point.

  • This sounds great! - However I would probably troll/pvp even more because of this, more Megs and maybe Skellyships? Great! I'd go crazy on those players to get free megs and skelly, I mean you need alot of those and they are rather rare

  • Bounties and all other systems that try to regulate PK's are exploitable and do only one thing, incentivice and attract more trolls to declare war.

    I agree that beeing a PK has zero disadvantages in this game and it maybe should have some.
    Stolen loot what you havent obtained by yourself should be worth a little less to incentivice to get loot by yourself.
    On the other Hand loot is worth nothing at all, it's just cosmetics.
    If you are a real PK you arent interested in cosmetics or titles , achievements or whatever, you are interested in PvP and killing and sinking other players!

    As it is part of the Game and how you like it, there is no way to regulate this.
    What you need to do is to make it the most unattractive playstyle like other games also tried, but mostly failed.

    You cannot regulate this, no way or you need to remove PvP at all.

    Edit: a good idea is maybe to be unable to sell stolen loot in the Region you sunk someone.
    Someone above suggested it already, but as i said.
    If i go full PK or want to troll other i couldnt care less for the loot, i'm only here to kill and sink you!

    Nothing can distract me, except the increased PvE you mentioned, but tbh it's session based and nothing should carry overy to another session as this promotes powergaming.
    They will just switch servers and open a new session and thats it.

    If you make Players have a session overarching reputation what causes Ai to spawn on you more often, it would be also something people exploit and farm.
    Kill someone on server x, do it with a friend, switch server to avoid revenge if ever needed cause you can raise your bad rep with an ally, farm increased Ai spawns.

    You can circle around it endlessly, there is no way to regulate peoples behaviour torwards other players except removing PvP entirely.

  • The most efficient way to get rid of trolls is scuttle before they arrive and make them have a bad experience for their intentions.
    If they cannot troll you they loose interest.

  • But wouldn't adding a bounty system in itself promote more trolling? If you are a troll, then you might find it funny to gain a bounty plus once the bounty is placed on said troll it would draw players to him which makes it so they no longer have to hunt players cuz they'd hunt him. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea but I feel like it could back fire and create more trolling.

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