Questionable decisions, inconsistent messaging

@wolfmanbush obligatory ban everyone that cheats post.

I am captain Fob and I approve this message

🫡

@wolfmanbush said in Questionable decisions, inconsistent messaging:

Players aren't really any more consistent than the devs on exploits (it's a lot of cherry picking and dismissing all around) and the ones that are more consistent can be pretty extreme with the "ban everyone" type of stuff.

I just got to a point in SoT where it's not worth being frustrated any more about inconsistency.

We can't do anything about it, they will always be pretty inconsistent, and a lot of us don't agree on it anyway.

The goal should be fast patches, low drama, and more focus on a healthy game than trying to label this group or that group "toxic parts of the community"

Nobody looks good in a SoT twitter/social platform battle (even though many think they do), this good vs bad stuff isn't necessary.

I appreciate that we've gotten to a situation where you've given in to apathy and want to take a low resistance approach to dealing with people who are ruining the game experience. I respectfully hope that Rare listens to others in the community and takes a different approach.

@wolfmanbush said in Questionable decisions, inconsistent messaging:

@habiki said in Questionable decisions, inconsistent messaging:

@wolfmanbush said in Questionable decisions, inconsistent messaging:

Players aren't really any more consistent than the devs on exploits (it's a lot of cherry picking and dismissing all around) and the ones that are more consistent can be pretty extreme with the "ban everyone" type of stuff.

I just got to a point in SoT where it's not worth being frustrated any more about inconsistency.

We can't do anything about it, they will always be pretty inconsistent, and a lot of us don't agree on it anyway.

The goal should be fast patches, low drama, and more focus on a healthy game than trying to label this group or that group "toxic parts of the community"

Nobody looks good in a SoT twitter/social platform battle (even though many think they do), this good vs bad stuff isn't necessary.

I appreciate that we've gotten to a situation where you've given in to apathy and want to take a low resistance approach to dealing with people who are ruining the game experience. I respectfully hope that Rare listens to others in the community and takes a different approach.

I've watched anti-pvp exploiters in this game openly cheese the game for years and then joke about it out in the open. I've seen people say "do whatever till they fix it". On and on. People cherry pick and always think they are the right ones.

The holier than thou approach never works in sot, it just creates more drama.

Should they have reintroduced the exploit? no. Is it inconsistent? yes, but it's what they did.

Multiple times I've seen you point out "toxic parts of the community" and that's a part of the toxicity in the sot community. Rather than just focus on it being a game that needs to be worked on and fixed and balanced it becomes these clubs of people that think they are good and others are bad. It's always been counterproductive.

The game needs improvement, that's all it is.

Remove unintended, intentionally improvement combat. That's all it is.

I don't even know what "toxic parts of the community" means in this context because the entire reason exploits are out of control is that casual players are using them too.

I suppose the best way for me to delineate it is that in this specific context I'm referring to exploits that have direct impacts on PvP scenarios, that one crew uses to gain a discernable advantage over another.

Things like what I've mentioned as examples........supply exploits to artificially attrition a crew. Quick-swapping to gain advantage via a lower than intended TTK. Crud launching to gain valuable positional advantage that's unexpected and in certain situations normally impossible.

I can agree to your point that PvE exploits contribute to and exacerbate the problem. In my experience it's the PvP related exploits that leave one with such a sour taste, though. It why I chose to focus this post on them as well as ask for clarity and improvement on how they're handled through official channels.

I'm also aware that this post is likely to be buried in a few days, with no response from anyone with any authoritative capacity.........but I've been a diehard player of this game for over six years now and I want to push this discussion further in the hopes that things will turn out better.

I have genuinely good memories with this game and it's introduced me to people who have become friends. Not targeting anyone here, but I don't want to be someone who gives in to a feeling of futility regarding the current state of things.

@wolfmanbush said in Questionable decisions, inconsistent messaging:

@habiki said in Questionable decisions, inconsistent messaging:

I'm also aware that this post is likely to be buried in a few days, with no response from anyone with any authoritative capacity.........but I've been a diehard player of this game for over six years now and I want to push this discussion further in the hopes that things will turn out better.

I have genuinely good memories with this game and it's introduced me to people who have become friends. Not targeting anyone here, but I don't want to be someone who gives in to a feeling of futility regarding the current state of things.

Understandable.

I think with quick swap specifically it's too often lumped in with toxicity. It then is used to try to get rid of 2 guns as an option.

I've been anti-cheesing this game for years here but I don't think cheesing a game is toxicity.

For whatever reason at the very least 20k players thought duping was ok in a live service game and I don't think they were toxic people. I think they cheese in a video game.

The launch exploits are ridiculous imo, especially bigger vs smaller ships/crews. I don't think that means they are toxic, I think it means they cheese pvp.

As frustrating as it can be I think it's important to stick to the substance of it and not fall back on using accusations of toxicity as as a tool to get things done. No matter what the topic is about in gameplay specifically.

People are responsible for their account activity and they might be held accountable for it at some point but I don't think people quick swap to be toxic and I don't think it's negatively impactful enough to justify considering it toxic.

TL:DR of this is:
quickswap on new/unaware player(s) yelling they should quit the game (etc.) = toxic
quickswap on new/unaware player(s) saying nothing = cheesing PvP

I can actually agree with this, because these same new players can eventually google/YT why they got double-tapped to obvlivion and learn how to do that themselves (until Rare decides to remove it, or not). No toxicity involved there.

Should it remain in the game, that's another topic. Imho, there shouldn't be double-standard. If Rare chooses to keep one exploit, they should keep them all. Or remove them all. Anything else equals to having double standards, and will ALWAYS result with a divide in community.

The crud launch hasn't beed reintroduced with crouching, so you can't sink because of it.
Its not in the game (for now).

@wolfmanbush The only difference is that these anti-PvP exploiters youre talking about are not affecting other players, thus not participating in ruining the game for other people.

Thats why using PvP exploits is considered toxic, because players using them are purposefully doing it to gain an advantage, fully aware that it will affect other people and maybe ruin the game for them, yet they keep doing it over and over. That is toxic, and I dont understand why you're defending them.

I believe adding crouching back to the game when it re-introduces an exploit into the sandbox was objectively the wrong call;

I don't think so; I think it was the right call, they assessed it and made the decision that this quickswap effects the game relatively little and thus is fine to be in the game for a few more weeks.
Having crouching back in was the right priority.
Most "sweats" aren't even using this quickswap. I know folk who specifically practised it and then still don't use it; they've gotten too used to playing without quickswap and this iteration of it is still so janky that in reality the advantage it provides doesn't come to much.

their subsequent declaration that players could use the exploit with impunity until another hotfix later this month.

This isn't new youknow.
We had a video quite a while ago when Drew started being in the news videos in his current capacity where Rare declared that exploits such as ladder launching or DPI glitching were specifically not bannable but due to be fixed so we shouldn't get used to them.
This is basically the same thing they've said now.
This is entirely consistent with their past track record.

I was not excited to have my FotD stolen by a galleon crew that I felt we could have beaten if they hadn't been quick-swapping and crud launching.

They fixed crud launching.
If you can't recognize what exploits they were using to beat you then they probably would have beaten you without them as well.

@ghutar Because nobody learn quickswap or crud
launch (or other PvP exploits) just to kill megs faster or to board skelly ships more easily. They learn it with the goal of dunking on players who dont use these exploits, boarding them from impossible angles and killing them so quickly that they dont have any time to react. This forces people to either deal with the frustration, and in some cases quit the game, or learn these exploits themselves, creating more exploiters in the process. Its a vicious circle and I don't think defending exploiters is healthy for the game.

I happened across a twitch streamer using the merchant crate exploit to load up for Hourglass many weeks ago. I reported them with video evidence and it appears they were banned for a bit. Then in the middle of last month, they're back on the seas doing the exact same thing........so I report again with video evidence.

Eww imagine reporting a crew for wanting more resources in a PvP setting. [mod edit]

the inconsistency with which confirmed cheaters are dealt with is extremely frustrating.

Cheaters are here to stay, RARE have lost the battle against them since day 1, get over it. It's not going to magically change 7 years into it. EAC fooled the mass casuals thinking it was going to do something.
But cheaters in their communities laughed at it.

It's a very disheartening and frustrating position to be in. I feel like the decisions that Rare makes aren't logical even when they explain their reasoning.

Refer to the above comment I just made.
They act this way when they have ZERO control over the situation, so they end up picking and choosing what is considered an exploit/ is bannable at the given time.
Quickswapping wasn't deemed an exploit in the past, until enough people complained about it, and then they switched up on players saying it actually is, then they tried removing it several times. Today it's back because of the crouching. (well it was for a brief moment)

@wolfmanbush soft bans for players exploiting the game with ramping punishments would absolutely be consistent. It's inconsistent to take xp and gold from people for one exploit but not allegiance from those crud launching, ladder launching, quick swapping, using God mode, resources duplications, or any other exploits.

The cqc exploits hurt the community far more than anything else, gold doesn't actually effect others, players pubstomping new players absolutely does.

@veronik5682 said in Questionable decisions, inconsistent messaging:

I happened across a twitch streamer using the merchant crate exploit to load up for Hourglass many weeks ago. I reported them with video evidence and it appears they were banned for a bit. Then in the middle of last month, they're back on the seas doing the exact same thing........so I report again with video evidence.

Eww imagine reporting a crew for wanting more resources in a PvP setting. [mod edit]

the inconsistency with which confirmed cheaters are dealt with is extremely frustrating.

Cheaters are here to stay, RARE have lost the battle against them since day 1, get over it. It's not going to magically change 7 years into it. EAC fooled the mass casuals thinking it was going to do something.
But cheaters in their communities laughed at it.

It's a very disheartening and frustrating position to be in. I feel like the decisions that Rare makes aren't logical even when they explain their reasoning.

Refer to the above comment I just made.
They act this way when they have ZERO control over the situation, so they end up picking and choosing what is considered an exploit/ is bannable at the given time.
Quickswapping wasn't deemed an exploit in the past, until enough people complained about it, and then they switched up on players saying it actually is, then they tried removing it several times. Today it's back because of the crouching. (well it was for a brief moment)

@WolfManbush
This is the kind of mentality that needs to be removed from the seas. This actively hurts the community. Plain and simple if you lack the integrity to not cheat small things you will find the justification to cheat in larger things.

@ghutar You're right, thats my bad. I edited my post.

A big part of disagreeing and misunderstanding comes from what people perceive as "toxic". The narrative in this scenario (at least how I perceived it from replies) looks like:

You kill a player using quick swap + they got offended/irritated by it = toxic
You kill a player using quick swap + they spend time to research how they got killed so fast, and learn how they can do it = not toxic/part of the skill gap.

And then, Rare comes into the picture with, whether THEY perceive it as toxic or not. But how is this measured/decided?

The only variable here that I can never figure out is when and why Rare decides what is a "toxic" exploit or not. There are no player polls, like ever, or at least I haven't seen any so far.

So I gotta ask, why have we never seen polls regarding features across all the (social) platforms? If they generally care about what their player base thinks on a large scope, why they never organize them, at least for sensitive stuff like this one, or any feature/change that could make a big impact? They could even use the game itself to advertise it, once you log in, in case someone may miss it out.

When you add on top of that how many insiders are complaining they are rarely being listened to, this kinda raises a question if Rare actually cares about feedback from their own playerbase. Whether positive or negative.

If they had a clear stance and if they were transparent and consistent with what's an "exploit" and what's a "feature", debates like this one would probably never happen. At the end of the day, I will always blame them, and never players for having different views on this topic.

@wolfmanbush I respectfully disagree.

Someone cheesing PvE stuff doesnt affect you directly, but indirectly. Someone getting billions of gold and getting easy commendations doesnt affect you directly.

Sure, they remove a lot of grinding time, making them spend less time on the seas, but PvP exploits directly affects players: they either make some people leave the game completely, making them spend no time at all on the seas, or turn them into new exploiters, who will make even more people leave the game, and I would say that is way worse than the first option.

@wolfmanbush You're definitely right about long term players, its just an accumulation of issues that make them leave. I was thinking more about the new players who get absolutely destroyed without the possibility of even reacting. If that happened to me when I started I probably wouldnt have played for so long.

I also agree that quickswap is the least damaging exploit among the "PvP exploits", but it still needs to go.

PvE exploits never led to people quitting the game, but players using PvP exploits are actively participating in making people leave, wether its their main reason for leaving or just the last straw. Thats why in my opinion they are way more damaging to the game, and should be the top priority when it comes to patching exploits.

@ghutar Yes we can definitely agree about the fact that any kind of exploit is not good for the game. (Except for the dig animation cancel, I want that back ! Jk =P)

@ghutar I mainly play on sloop, so I didnt even know that was a thing 😅

This kind of little details is what make Sea of Thieves truly unique, there is no other game like it. I kinda get why they changed it, but this made a lot of sense and was logical when you think about it ^^