A concise List of Sword combat Problems

What would you recommend as a fix?

@crafek написал в A concise List of Sword combat Problems:

• Ever since "Sword Switching" (or whatever it was called) was introduced, an exploit was born, making for unfair sword combat. (This has to be fixed).

• How thing that anyone can do can be exploit ? Can't you press hide/show button twice ?

• Swords still trade hits inconsistently, this could be due to hit registration issues.

Newer seen this i'm always getting hits with swords coz they melee and never miss so that's what u describe is connection (ping/latency) problem look like

• Pirates still dont get stunned if in Mid-air. (This was the real culprit to previous sword combats problems).

Why should they ? If you getting hit in mid air your body still fly same direction as it should be. Take u Shotgun if u want to kick someone in mid air.

• There is no longer "Environment Comboing", however, you significantly reduce the time to start swinging again if you do still hit a piece of environment, versus missing completely.

For me this one is perfect right now, if you get hit items you get you sword swing back like parry and if you miss one u get a lil bi more time before you getting swing again.
Miss = punish

• The dynamic of being able to move in full speed while swinging your sword against someone who is blocking (Who is then forced to stand still) is creating unbalanced situations.

You can't move on full speed coz "shift" or "run" make you hide any weapon you hold.

• There is an inert Cooldown for Sword-Dodging that can be activated if you are blocking with the sword in moments that dont let you Sword-Dodge. (Examples: Inputting to sword-Dodge in midair wont let you Sword-dodge from the ground until this cooldown has ended, or inputting to sword-dodge while blocking attacks but still not allowed to make the dodge).
• You can still sword-Dodge while crippled or in a heavy body of water to mitigate the slowdown from those effects. (This could be intentional)

Can't say anything about it coz its nonsense to me :)

• You get a full jog speed and the ability to jump while charging your sword if you held BLOCK first. (This is not intentional, but devs dont want to take this ability away. I suggest to normalise this with standard sword charging).

Its how its working since beginning of game - it sword-skill instead of bug. Totally disagree on changing this mechanic.

• When you Charge attack into the environment, you get to block, Sword-Dodge, make an attack, turn around, etc. You only don't get the ability to move normally. This is different from missing completely, which makes you unable to do almost anything for 2 seconds.

Once again if you missed - get penalty, coz charge slice is double edged sword.
You land hit = u won 90%
You miss = ok u deserve it.

All of your complains look to me like unskilled sword player who prefer guns 2 sword.
My suggestion to look for advanced sword fighting tips

There is a lot of useful vids.

P.S. Don't take it personally i just wan't to show Rare staff that there is more then one opinion.

@shurthugal написал в A concise List of Sword combat Problems:

@nefrit-od Hi.
I'll keep this short because it's not really my task to defend @Crafek's statements. Also, it's fine that you have a different opinion on the matter.

But if you disagree with something please take the time to actually read and try to understand what the other person wrote before you post a reply to statements that revolve around completely different things than the things you think they are about.

Cheers!

You think i did post this long without reading it ?
And who's not trying to understand here? :)

@nefrit-od Im gonna try and answer as best I can.

• An exploit is an unintended effect that can be abused to break aspects of the game, does not matter if anyone can do it. Its worse if anyone can do it. In "For Honor", A character could INSTA KILL anyone. And so everyone who plays this character could do it and it was pretty easy. This was a major exploit and broke the spirit of the game. I mean, its an instant kill... The exploit that I mentioned for Sea of Thieves is not that BAD but it allows to lock someone in a constant flurry of cuts. This is pretty game breaking once you get good at it.
• When two swords hit eachother, a trade happens. You have seen this. But, swords trade at odd advantages/disadvantages. Such as after blocking, you attack but still get hit.
• The reason they should stun in mid-air is to be consistent with stunning pirates on ground. With your logic, a pirate should fall to the ground, not be able to move and still jump. That is what happens: Pirate jumps, gets swung at, but still is able to freely move and jump again. I think I even have footage of a pirate jumping through all 3 strikes. This encourages pirates to bunnyhop constantly and I believe is unintended.
• My point is that there is a difference. Again, its Unintended. This results in inconsistencies once again, because you wont know if the opponent has hit an object or not for you to attack him back. Turns out he did hit an object and can swing at you before you react to swing back. It is much harder to differentiate and capitalize on the difference between him having hit an object or not. Resulting in shaky, inconcistent sword play once again.
• I didnt say "sprint". I meant full normal speed while swinging...
• Not sure what you mean by "Nonsense".
• What?! Your english makes me think you dont know what im talking about. I want normal Charge, be the same as Block+Charge. So that you GET full walking speed and jump when charging. Why MUST people hold block first? Just let them charge normally and get everything from this bug instead of having one BAD charge, and one GOOD charge that needs blocking first. Just make it into one GOOD charge. No need to hold block...
• Do not point at my sword skills when you clearly dont even know about what im talking about. Try this: Block+Charge into NOTHING. You wont be able to do anything. Block+Charge into ENVIRONMENT (Not enemies), you will then be able to BLOCK and SWORD DODGE and etc. THAT is what im talking about.

---

Il take it a tiny bit personal, but only because I see that you didnt understand half of what I said.

The first thing I did when "Sword switching" got added was finding this exploit, and abused it on players. It goes to show how little Rare is confident in making good sword combat.

@crafek написал в A concise List of Sword combat Problems:

@nefrit-od Im gonna try and answer as best I can.

• An exploit is an unintended effect that can be abused to break aspects of the game, does not matter if anyone can do it. Its worse if anyone can do it. In "For Honor", A character could INSTA KILL anyone. And so everyone who plays this character could do it and it was pretty easy. This was a major exploit and broke the spirit of the game. I mean, its an instant kill... The exploit that I mentioned for Sea of Thieves is not that BAD but it allows to lock someone in a constant flurry of cuts. This is pretty game breaking once you get good at it.
• When two swords hit eachother, a trade happens. You have seen this. But, swords trade at odd advantages/disadvantages. Such as after blocking, you attack but still get hit.
• The reason they should stun in mid-air is to be consistent with stunning pirates on ground. With your logic, a pirate should fall to the ground, not be able to move and still jump. That is what happens: Pirate jumps, gets swung at, but still is able to freely move and jump again. I think I even have footage of a pirate jumping through all 3 strikes. This encourages pirates to bunnyhop constantly and I believe is unintended.
• My point is that there is a difference. Again, its Unintended. This results in inconsistencies once again, because you wont know if the opponent has hit an object or not for you to attack him back. Turns out he did hit an object and can swing at you before you react to swing back. It is much harder to differentiate and capitalize on the difference between him having hit an object or not. Resulting in shaky, inconcistent sword play once again.
• I didnt say "sprint". I meant full normal speed while swinging...
• Not sure what you mean by "Nonsense".
• What?! Your english makes me think you dont know what im talking about. I want normal Charge, be the same as Block+Charge. So that you GET full walking speed and jump when charging. Why MUST people hold block first? Just let them charge normally and get everything from this bug instead of having one BAD charge, and one GOOD charge that needs blocking first. Just make it into one GOOD charge. No need to hold block...
• Do not point at my sword skills when you clearly dont even know about what im talking about. Try this: Block+Charge into NOTHING. You wont be able to do anything. Block+Charge into ENVIRONMENT (Not enemies), you will then be able to BLOCK and SWORD DODGE and etc. THAT is what im talking about.

---

Il take it a tiny bit personal, but only because I see that you didnt understand half of what I said.

The first thing I did when "Sword switching" got added was finding this exploit, and abused it on players. It goes to show how little Rare is confident in making good sword combat.

Ok i see that you don't reading my answers and keeping on your point so this conversations will not lead us anywhere :)

See ya in seas. :)

@nefrit-od Suuure...

@XxCaptMichaelxX I have recommended for fixes before. If you do want me to go into detail then forgive me if this is getting too long:

I would fix "Sword switching" by removing it completely, but also rebalance the time and animation of when you can switch out of a sword and find a good middle ground that is universal when missing or hitting environment, so those two difference should be equal.

"No enviornment combo"-ing is something that a lot of people asked for during the previous sword version. So I think we should re-introduce the Slowdown effect but only for the 2nd and 3rd swings. That way, the first swing will give full movement and wont accidentally get you to a slow down if you did not hit an enemy. And would play well against blocking opponents again.

The alternative is to make blocking no longer slow you down. This is not my suggestion, but I feel like this wouldnt lend well and we dont know how much movement speed we get while holding block, or while attacks are being blocked. And also, sword dodging gets muddled and watered down with this alternative. Not entierly but would feel less impactful due to the movement difference a blocking person has with the sword-dodge.

I would then Fix the [Sword charging into environment bug] that gives you the ability to do things after a missed but environment hit charge.

Iron out sword-dodging cooldowns and maybe rework it slightly to not activate when it shouldn't.

And then really consider and fix stunlocking mid-air pirates. A pirate is going to be moving and jumping again after the first swing, so the slowdown is going to make you miss the 3rd or maybe even 2nd swing when chasing someone. So, I think this fix would have to be considered while implementing it. For now, I would only assume to make a mid-air pirate stop their horizontal movement if hit by a sword. Maybe not abruptly, what if Rare manages to cause the pirate to slow down? so that the stunlock does not feel like a brick wall. Kind of like how zombies that hit you in Left 4 Dead, stunlock you but dont stop you completely, but stop you to a crawl atleast.

@galactic-geek OMG YES! Ok, so I knew about these but these both are consequences from the changes made and I too miss them. The only non-list issue that I did list was

The dynamic of being able to move in full speed while swinging your sword against someone who is blocking (Who is then forced to stand still) is creating unbalanced situations.

Which is just an oversight or a consequence and not a direct unintended game mechanic. But, I am in the opinion of simplifying these mechanics, OR making them a lot more obvious.

For the first issue you addressed, Firearm Quickdraw, is simply lost due to switching to a weapon being increased regardless. The second, Running Sword Slash is also lost as it has muddled with current standard sword swing.

Those two tricks were great, but did not feel obvious. Sort of like Block+charge, where your charge suddenly feels better. It was never intended or obvious for it to be that way. So I would either standardise these mechanics by fixing Block+anything, but making the features work the way we want regardless of blocking first. But, you may have changed my mind into wishing for a workaround where blocking+anything actually has new obvious animations and sounds just so that it gives a tell, for even new players that this is a mechanic and is intended.

And just maybe this could be the better way to suggest things for the sword, im just wishful thinking here :I

@galactic-geek I know, as I said I wanted an Obvious tell, with animation AND sound, so that people discover them on their own.

@Zaannox You disagree with fixing the Exploit? Or the Sword-Dodge cooldown? Or having a shorter window of punishment if you hit environment, or hit environment with charge? I want to see how Hit Reg fix is going to fix THESE issues or the dynamic between a blocking opponent versus an attacking opponent.

@RoosterWacker69 I Agree and would love that. But there are elements that they have added that I now also want it implemented in the old sword combat as well, such as the no environment combo-ing. That aspect would help newer players not accidentally get stuck on being slowed down, which is one of the reasons for removing slowdown... Which is sad, because they added a "1 strike only on miss" AFTER removing the slowdown.

@roosterwacker69 I mean yeah, I agree and would also want that. But this slowdown and how it worked was one of the reasons that it was removed. Rare wants to cater to the casuals, so at least, a mechanic that protects them from themselves could be enough. What Rare did was remove the slowdown all-togheter without thinking of the consequences... Which was really bad.

@sweltering-nick

Thank you! I dont know about you, but if you have played the previous sword iteration, then you may remember that there was depth and strategy when swinging swords caused you to slow down. The only other reason why I would assume them to have the sword be like it currently is, is maybe to make room for new melee weapons?

Im doubtful, because the mechanics just dont work togheter without the slow down. But just about 30 minutes ago, someone yelled at me for using the blunderbuss (I Had blunder+pistol) and he said "Blunderbuss Meta abuser M¨¨F¨¨er". When in reality, the sword is pretty meta right now.

@sweltering-nick Lol, i will not have the time to tell my enemies what is what. I actually think its best to just let them discover it on their own.

Sword play is completely broken right now and really needs looking at.

@Captain-Fet Yupp. I dont know if Rare knows well to fix it or how.

@zaannox

1. It has been dubbed a feature from an exploit, but we might as well turn it into an actual feature in order by not obscure it by holding block first, that was my argument...

2. Try this. Jump, while in midair: Sword-Dodge. Sword dodge again as soon as you land, you wont be able to sword dodge. Normally you would if you didnt do it in midair.

3. How are people misinterpreting what im saying? Try this on your own, go to your ship, hit the side of the ship or a piece of environment, you will have a smaller window of punishment than when missing completely, which is a bigger window of punishment! These things accumulate to make the sword fights feel inconsistent.

4. Negative frames? What? The person can still block, Sword-Dodge etc. Why is there a difference between someone missing completely and hitting environment? These things accumulate to make the sword fights feel inconsistent.

5. Nice claim... I dont know if you did sword infinites before the patch, but thats the first thing I tested out and made videos on when the patch hit. There are better ways to make the sword feel better than to allow for an exploit that locks someone down infinitely. It is possible for sword combat to feel fair and not be janky. How is this possibility not an option? Holy cow. Current sword already is awkward, but in an inconsistent and messy way. This exploit adds to it and really messes up fights.

You dont have to be arrogant. You can try to detail arguments against my claims of how the sword is broken. My only question is, how is this NOT a list of broken mechanics? Are you really defending the exploit that makes sword fights bad, or oversight of details that can be ironed out?

Ive seen this before, arguing against people who argued against my argument on EoR. My claim was, EoR is too strong, being used like a flintlock and is the better weapon of the guns. There was constant back and forths on what makes EoR weak or strong.

The "Reload is longer" was their argument. (By only 24 frames).

And then the EoR got nerfed. and people now have the after-opinion in that "Yes the EoR was strong, and this was a good compromise".

And here, im more curious as to how someone can defend a messy feeling and buggy piece of equipment with an obviously unfair exploit. The next thing someone will say is how I exaggerate calling the exploit unfair...

I am not being unreasonable.

My sword play is definitely not as experienced as some other members here, however, I'm starting to get more skilled. I've been through the many iterations of Rare's tweaks and fixes to sword play, and have found the more recent iteration still somewhat broken (in my very humble opinion).

During my Arena matches, I'll find myself blocking and dodging, however, if one sword swing somehow sneaks through, the "stunning" or cancellation of all movement or reactions is quite frustrating.

This could be due to my mediocre skill at it, but this game is still aimed at all player types. The constant stunning so you cannot escape or react seems a bit imbalanced. I'm sure there is a reason for the design decision, but I miss the older sword play prior to the tweaking and changes.

Just my two cents...