Fix Red Sea exploit - move the loot back into the play area.

  • SavageTwinky
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    @madfingerer

    If the purpose of the game is to steal and protect loot from each other... going out of bounds is an exploit instead of engaging in the game mechanics. If anything it makes even LESS sense if you think about it in the context of... the player has decided that losing all his loot is acceptable... but still isn't going to play the game the way its intended. I would consider it an exploit based on the information we have about the game unless the developers say otherwise.. he's exploiting an in game mechanic to avoid other in game mechanics.

    Although at this point we'd probably need to understand what the term exploit really means... maybe a specific interpretation doesn't fit, it's a quite literal interpretation in this case.

  • Ledbain21
    Marauder
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    chasing someone for their loot doesn't entitle you to their loot if they choose to lose it rather than hand it over. Take the L.

  • DrunkPunk138
    Master
    Founder

    @savagetwinky said in Fix Red Sea exploit - teleport the loot back into the play area.:

    @madfingerer

    If the purpose of the game is to steal and protect loot from each other... going out of bounds is an exploit instead of engaging in the game mechanics. If anything it makes even LESS sense if you think about it in the context of... the player has decided that losing all his loot is acceptable... but still isn't going to play the game the way its intended. I would consider it an exploit based on the information we have about the game unless the developers say otherwise.. he's exploiting an in game mechanic to avoid other in game mechanics.

    Although at this point we'd probably need to understand what the term exploit really means... maybe a specific interpretation doesn't fit, it's a quite literal interpretation in this case.

    Eh, an exploit is defined by functionality causing unintended consequences or behavior, and often times associated with providing an unintended benefit as a result.

    can you really call this an unintended consequence? it's not like it isn't an obvious activity and outcome. and I'm sure this isn't the first time it's been mentioned on these forums. and the person running out there doesn't really benefit from it, either, outside of satisfaction that nobody wins the loot. taking the intended spirit of the game as the determination of whether it is or is not an exploit doesn't really work, as sandbox styled games may have a vision but that is never set in stone, which is the entire point of the freedom the experience offers.

    Ultimately it's not our place to determine whether this is an exploit or not. At best, we can raise awareness, pointlessly argue with each other and see how Rare responds. You can view it how you wish, as an exploit, but until that day comes that Rare says something, it's nothing more than an opinion because we don't know how Rare intended the red sea to work or if they consider this a valid tactic.

  • Archangel Timmy
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    @savagetwinky said in Fix Red Sea exploit - teleport the loot back into the play area.:

    @madfingerer

    If the purpose of the game is to steal and protect loot from each other... going out of bounds is an exploit instead of engaging in the game mechanics. If anything it makes even LESS sense if you think about it in the context of... the player has decided that losing all his loot is acceptable... but still isn't going to play the game the way its intended. I would consider it an exploit based on the information we have about the game unless the developers say otherwise.. he's exploiting an in game mechanic to avoid other in game mechanics.

    Although at this point we'd probably need to understand what the term exploit really means... maybe a specific interpretation doesn't fit, it's a quite literal interpretation in this case.

    Protecting something from another player also includes simply not letting them have it. It doesn't mean you have to be able to keep it for yourself as well. Honestly, there should be more ways to dispose of loot :)

    Saw a pretty interesting suggestion for a volcanic island, let me know some loot in there!

  • Archangel Timmy
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    Wish we could edit for up to 5 minutes or so after a post...

    Fixed a typo above...

    "Saw a pretty interesting suggestion for a volcanic island, let me throw some loot in there!"

  • UrihamRayne
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    @archangel-timmy

    Allow me to explain this as hard as I can:

    "We've made decisions where all quest rewards are physical"

    Loot is both exp and gold in physical form and can be stolen.

    "all of that stuff is never truly yours"

    None of that belongs to anyone.

    "until you get back to the outpost."

    Unless if especifically delivered to the outpost.

    The vision for the flow of the loot of this game is very clear. You find it in the world and you take it back to the outpost for permanent reward. Making it unretriavable is an anomaly in the flow, it doesn't belong in the natural gameplay cicle, The world is designed in a way you can find treasure anywhere and take it back with you or steal it from others. The barrier is at the end of the world, it is literally alien to the world. The red sea has a clear purpose of guiding players to stay in the play area, it is not a loot dump area, the game doesn't direct players to do such a thing, there is no tip saying "surrounded by chasers? Destroy your loot at the edge of the world", because the game already has a functional system to secure your loot, the outposts. Claiming that I am warping the meaning of the quote is ridiculous, when in reality is you that are warping the purpose of the red sea.

    This is not a stretch in any way, to comprehend that when there is malicious intent, exploits involve griefing, as in using mechanics of the game to cause irritation, it derives a benefit for them because their objective is to grief. I stated this numerous times that I don't care about the runners or the chasers, because the real problem rises from people that would grief other people by purposely going to the worlds end to get items stuck there, they have a purpose that they successfully fulfill, their benefit is the fact that they succeeded in causing dismay. It is not comparable to pvp because in pvp there are battles that involve victories and losses, and losing doesn't feel good for most, however it is still well within the mechanics of the game, it still has fair play. The exploit I mentioned has very little counterplay, once the deed is done its irreversible, and it doesn't require much skill, a solo could do it with ease. Again this is about fair play, it is not fair to have an abusable mechanic that outright removes the loot from the game, it is too easy to perform, it is too difficult to prevent, it doesn't balance out and the game doesn't indicate this mechanic's existance in any way. There is still no excuse to be defending this exploit, and it is still very much an exploit.

  • SavageTwinky
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    @drunkpunk138 said in Fix Red Sea exploit - teleport the loot back into the play area.:

    Eh, an exploit is defined by functionality causing unintended consequences or behavior, and often times associated with providing an unintended benefit as a result.

    @archangel-timmy said in Fix Red Sea exploit - teleport the loot back into the play area.:

    Protecting something from another player also includes simply not letting them have it. It doesn't mean you have to be able to keep it for yourself as well. Honestly, there should be more ways to dispose of loot :)

    Right the red sea serves as a warning before being insta sunk for going out of bounds. It's unintended to be used the way players are using it so I'd still consider this an exploit... while they do not get a benefit... it's clearly being used to spite an attempt to take the loot.. so deny someone else the benefit in this way that is likely unintended and sportsmen like. They exploiting specific rules to keep players in a specific play area to avoid being bested.

  • Archangel Timmy
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    This was built into the game, it has been there since at least the Beta. It causes both sides grief, and doesn't benefit either side.

    In the end, there are arguments to either side and it appears no one will agree. This is such an insignificant thing and such a small group of people are upset by this mechanic that if it does get noticed by Rare, it probably wont change the way you want it to. It would cause more grief than not as it directly negatively affects PVE players and benefits PVP players on a greater scale. This is a PvEvP game, not just PVP and neither side should get shafted.

    The best course of action would be to make it more difficult to hit that barrier. The closer you get, the heavier the waves. The wheel forcibly turns, the sails change direction or the anchor gets jarred lose. To me, all of those are better changes than taking choices away from players that were built into the game.

    Now as to whether or not this was an oversight, only Rare can answer that. I feel there is enough logical reasoning for it to be there as do others, but you also disagree there.

  • Admiral RRRSole

    Okay let's see if I've got this right.
    A person or crew actually sparks a neuron in their brain to solve a riddle or to use a compass to find the "X" marks of a map. They fend off skeletons, sharks and snakes and may even kill a few captains as opposed to just sailing around and stealing from others.

    At first these people are told that having loot stolen from them is perfectly fine because they haven't earned it, or it's not yours until you cash it in at an outpost.

    Now people (possibly the same ones who are opposed to giving a finders fee in way of rep) are complaining about others dropping or wasting the loot that you have ONLY chased a ship for but haven't earned, loot you haven't even seen, yet somehow claim it as an unjust action against you because you chased a boat.

    Really? I mean really?

  • UrihamRayne
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    @admiral-rrrsole there are numerous other ways to hide or run away with your treasure in the world, we don't need an exploit to make items unretriavable to be in the game.

  • Admiral RRRSole

    @urihamrayne Is it really an exploit? People can't have it both ways.

    Perhaps look at it this way.
    PvE: Your goal is to get to the outpost before enemy sinks you.
    PvP: Your goal is to sink them before the red sea.

  • UrihamRayne
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    @admiral-rrrsole the red sea was designed to keep players inside the play area, it is not a loot dump, people can use the red sea to their hearts content in my opinion, but using the out of bounds barrier exploit is not an intended method of the game to make loot unretriavable, its an oversight.

  • Archangel Timmy
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    Another way of looking at is as well is there is no sure fire way to escape. People get chased for hours, which is completely ridiculous. This provides that means of escape in regards to a chase stalemate except everyone loses. The game is set up so they don't have to fight, they can run. They can try to do outpost drive-by's (another exploit to you I am guessing?), but again, that could take hours. They shouldn't be required to rollover and give you that loot to avoid more time wasted. That is rewarding you for wasting their time, the red sea is an even loss.

  • Archangel Timmy
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    @urihamrayne said in Fix Red Sea exploit - teleport the loot back into the play area.:

    @admiral-rrrsole the red sea was designed to keep players inside the play area, it is not a loot dump, people can use the red sea to their hearts content in my opinion, but using the out of bounds barrier exploit is not an intended method of the game to make loot unretriavable, its an oversight.
    In your opinion it is an oversight. It has completely legitimate and balanced reasons for existing, and you are simply dissatisfied that you cannot get free loot from other players.

  • Archangel Timmy
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    @urihamrayne said in Fix Red Sea exploit - teleport the loot back into the play area.:

    @admiral-rrrsole the red sea was designed to keep players inside the play area, it is not a loot dump, people can use the red sea to their hearts content in my opinion, but using the out of bounds barrier exploit is not an intended method of the game to make loot unretriavable, its an oversight.

    In your opinion it is an oversight. It has completely legitimate and balanced reasons for existing, and you are simply dissatisfied that you cannot get free loot from other players.

    *Quote got botched, re-posting for legibility.

  • TouchDown1504
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    Founder

    So I have been in forum jail for a few days...seems I missed a lot.

    We are calling dumping loot in the red Sea "griefing" now? Awesome total SJW play there, turning around the narrative to make the aggressor appear to be the victim. Well played...weak, snowflake like and spineless, not to mention so 2015, but well played none the less. Please continue....

    #notanexploit

  • UrihamRayne
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    @archangel-timmy outpost drive bys are not exploits since outposts are the intended way of delivering loot, how you deliver it to them is entirely up to the player.

    In no way I have said that players should give up on running away, I have stated many times that you can use any means you deem necessary to outplay your opponents, except the out of bounds barrier exploit. It is clear its an oversight, due to how loot floats like it normally does everywhere in the map, if the intent was that it could no longer be retrieved it wouldn't float up and would imidiately despawn from the game, however it behaves like it does in the rest of the ocean because there is no intended design for dumping loot in the out of bounds area beyond the red sea, it is an exploit, how many times do I need to make it clear that this position is not a baseless claim? how long are you going to continue to ignore the gigantic heaps of evidence that support my point of view?

  • Admiral RRRSole

    @urihamrayne Granted some may use it to deprive you of simply taking their hard earned loot but running into the red sea is not always a deliberate act.

    Sometimes people have abandon ship in an attempt to board your vessel but miss the ladders.
    Other times they might be busy focused on repairs and bailing or even briefly afk to not notice how close they are to the map edge.

    At the end of the chase does it bother you when there isn't any loot floating in the red sea or is it only a pain when there is loot that you still can't get your hands on?

  • TouchDown1504
    Insider
    Founder

    Soooo...Can someone explain to me how Dumping loot in the red sea became "griefing"? Anyone?

  • UrihamRayne
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    @admiral-rrrsole what are you talking about? Getting items stuck in the out of bounds barrier is almost always deliberate, there is a ton of room to avoid hitting the barrier marked as a red line as you can see in the pic below. All I asked was for the loot that floats in the yellow to float in the blue instead, I don't care about teleporting it anywhere else to my convenience or anyone's, its just a simple patch to avoid items to become unretriavable.

  • Admiral RRRSole

    @urihamrayne said

    All I asked was for the loot that floats in the yellow to float in the blue instead, I don't care about teleporting it anywhere else to my convenience or anyone's, its just a simple patch to avoid items to become unretriavable.

    But you do want it to teleport to where you've given up the chase, at the edge of the blue sea.

    Just like loot that neither sinks to the bottom nor floats to the surface.
    Our sloop has been sunk by a galleon when we had 7 chests and a couple of skulls on board. We came back with a new ship where we sunk and killed them.
    Our chest and skulls were visible in the water but we swam straight through all of them, only able to actually grab the skulls.
    The replaced galleon and crew returned so we fended them off again in between trying to grab our chests.
    I think that doing the quests, discovering the chests and our repeated fights over that same loot would be more reason to be upset about, but thems the breaks. We all fail at somethings.
    Just shrug it off and move on.

    The loot will de-spawn in time.

  • UrihamRayne
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    @admiral-rrrsole "at the edge of the blue sea."

    do I have to draw an arrow? The blue line is inside the red sea, I don't want loot to be in the safe sea if the ship sunk in the red sea, just because I dislike the exploit doesn't meann I want to dumb down the decision of sinking yourself in the red sea, it still should be a pain to get the items, just not impossible.

  • MarlonnGrando

    Using a lack of a statement by Rare either way on this issue as confirmation of this being an exploit is just bad logic. In a game where very little of the mechanics are explained directly outright it leans more to the idea that if this is how it works then that is by design, much more so than taking quotes regarding loot in general and extrapolating.

    I'd also say that if the Red Sea was merely an artificial boundary intended to keep players in then there were myriad ways they could have returned the player to the zone without the sinking effect that occurs That would lead me to believe that current behaviour is intended which is my opinion, and that's all anybody really has here is their opinion without direct statements from developers regarding this specific issue. The insistence of this being an exploit by some posters as a hard fact, when it doesn't even meet the base definition of the word (no advantage or benefit is gained) is what seems to cause umbrage with others.

  • Archangel Timmy
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    @urihamrayne said in Fix Red Sea exploit - teleport the loot back into the play area.:

    How many times do I need to make it clear that this position is not a baseless claim? how long are you going to continue to ignore the gigantic heaps of evidence that support my point of view?

    Because beyond the fact that it simply ruffles your feathers, your claims are baseless and driven on conjecture. The loot stays the way it does because other than the barrier, the conditions are the same as far as the ocean is concerned. That does not mean the barrier is not doing exactly what it was designed to do. There isn't a need to spend the development time to make it immediately disappear when the two separate pieces acting on their own do what is expected and a few people shed a tear because they don't get freebies.

    If this was not the desired outcome, they would have forcibly sank your ship at some point before the barrier regardless of the condition of your boat, similar to when the boat is completely stuck but in tact. They have the functionality already, but didn't use it. This was not an oversight, but a deliberate action.

  • UrihamRayne
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    @archangel-timmy The barrier does what it is supposed to do which is prevent players from continuing to move beyond a certain point, this purpose is not connected to loot, because the red sea is not a loot dumpster, I said it numerous times but it doesn't seem to be understood that the red sea is a tool for keeping players inside the play area, continuing on inside the red sea leads to an insta sink whenever the ship passes the barrier and a deterrent for players to move foward. This has nothing to do with loot, it is merely colateral, it is being used to purposely get items stuck beyond the barrier that couldn't be further from the purpose of these systems, it is still an exploit.

  • Archangel Timmy
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    @urihamrayne said in Fix Red Sea exploit - teleport the loot back into the play area.:

    @archangel-timmy The barrier does what it is supposed to do which is prevent players from continuing to move beyond a certain point, this purpose is not connected to loot,

    Okay, you admit it is working as designed. Interacting with players and keeping them from moving beyond a certain point.

    I said it numerous times but it doesn't seem to be understood that the red sea is a tool for keeping players inside the play area, continuing on inside the red sea leads to an insta sink whenever the ship passes the barrier and a deterrent for players to move foward.

    And it does exactly that in multiple ways. It deters people from going out there, and it keeps you from staying out. You are trying to go out there to get loot in an area the game doesn't want you. Beyond a certain point it purposefully prevents you from even attempting it. Sounds like it is working exactly as expected. There is no way they designed this and didn't expect a very small insignificant number of people would purposefully sail out to it. It provides a break even way of ending things, which is why it was created this way and will likely stay this way.

    This has nothing to do with loot

    If this were the case, you wouldn't be on here crying about losing that loot.

    The only fair way to alleviate this is to make the red more difficult to navigate.

  • UrihamRayne
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    @archangel-timmy

    My sentences have context, don't quote them the way you did, that is intellectual dishonesty.

    If I'm going to the red sea to get loot its not so much me making an incorrect play rather someone that wants to use a system to their advantage already made the call to use the red sea. Everything in the red sea except the loot getting stuck behind an impassable wall is working as intended. Rare devs have done several blunders over the course of the game they later corrected, you can't cross out the possibility that this isn't an oversight as well. There is noo even take once people start to grief the world from its items, the more things get introduced in the future the more dangerous the barrier exploit becomes, there will be more opportunities for abuse.

    The red sea doesn't need to be made harder to navigate, the only fix that is needed is what I presented, it takes nothing away from the game it only prevents abuse.

  • thealcani

    @entspeak i think its legit. if u are not able to catch someone in time he can go off the map, both lose no one wins... whats the issue?

  • TwilaDerp
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    @omega-131313 Yay, someone who know the lore. Wish it was fog though like in the comics and other books.

  • ByF8thThruGrace

    like 3 people in this thread have single handily changed the salt content of the red sea by their tears. so now the loot floats easier than ever and should be back in the blue in no time!

  • TwilaDerp
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    @nightmare247365 The game is like D and D. The DM (Rare) has a plan for a session and the players go out of their way to make sure the plan does not go the way that was expected. Like a boss that was not supposed to be beaten and you were supposed to run away from. A few lucky roles and all of a sudden the boss is dead and the DM is not prepared for it and has to spend time rewriting his outcomes to give them something or winning. Players will not follow the predetermined path or linear storyline and will exploit anything to get what they want. This is how things work for every game with an open world setup.

  • themuckypaw

    A red sea tale that might amuse ...

    My friend was on Shipwreck Bay doing a riddle when a solo player in a sloop decides to try and sink our sloop. Rather than make my friend come back to the ship I decided to play 'chase me', so I dropped sail and took the attacker on a wild goose chase. As he was chasing me I told him there is no point chasing as I had no treasure but he insisted on chasing me anyway, saying "I have nothing to lose". I tried boarding him a couple of times but he was alert enough to stop me each time, so I headed for the edge of the map. As we got to the red sea I slowed down enough for him to catch me and as he drew along side he grabbed a gunpowder barrel and tried to jump on my ship but his timing was bad as it was the same moment I chose to turn my wheel full turn to stop from entering the red sea. He missed my ship and was left in the water holding a gunpowder barrel as I sailed off waving to him laughing my head off as I watched his ship sail out to the red sea and quickly sink.

    I'm guessing he probably rage quit as we never saw him again. :D

  • Archangel Timmy
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    @urihamrayne said in Fix Red Sea exploit - teleport the loot back into the play area.:

    @archangel-timmy

    My sentences have context, don't quote them the way you did, that is intellectual dishonesty.

    I broke your rambling up into sections to make my reply line up with those specific pieces and it did not change the overall context of your original message. In the first section, I did removed your dumpster remark, but again, that had no bearing on your original message. Kudos for attempting to discredit me while completely ignoring my last statement.

    So far throughout this entire discussion you have flip flopped on whether or not this is a mechanic of the game (which it is), and now you say it isn't about the loot when that is the entire basis for your complaint.

    rather someone that wants to use a system to their advantage already made the call to use the red sea.

    This isn't an advantage, there is equally no benefit here which has been pointed out countless times. Nobody wins in this scenario, which is as intended.

    Everything in the red sea except the loot getting stuck behind an impassable wall is working as intended.

    It is how it works, and it is as intended. If it weren't they would have scuttled your ship before the barrier as if it were impossibly stuck which is existing functionality. This would actually be a better solution to your non-problem.

    Rare devs have done several blunders over the course of the game they later corrected, you can't cross out the possibility that this isn't an oversight as well.

    Mistakes have been made on their part, but with the other existing functionality that could be used and isn't, I don't believe this is an oversight.

    There is noo even take once people start to grief the world from its items, the more things get introduced in the future the more dangerous the barrier exploit becomes, there will be more opportunities for abuse.

    This isn't abuse or grieving, it is a balanced end result for all involved.

    The red sea doesn't need to be made harder to navigate, the only fix that is needed is what I presented, it takes nothing away from the game it only prevents abuse.

    There is no abuse to prevent, this will only negatively impact the person being endlessly chased.

  • UrihamRayne
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    @archangel-timmy

    I have been very consistent in my posts, you are again warping my words to your whim which is what I complained when you quoted my line on loot which was in reference to the functionality of the wall, it doesn't have anything to do with loot in its purpose, but it is affecting it.

    You can keep on this apologistic trite of saying that there is no oversight, but I saw the issue that you can't, there is absolutely no purpose to items being made unretriavable, this is still an exploit that can be used to grief items of the world. There is no defense against this, there is no reason to defend this, this doesn't affect only the runners, it affects the entire environment of players that have each their different playstyles, there is no balance because there is very little counter play, this mechanic throws fair play out of the window.

    Nothing about the barrier getting items permanently stuck is intended, it will never be for as long as I am here.

  • CardShark 360
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    @madfingerer @URIHAMRAYNE As per the Forum Rules we all must remain respectful towards all other community members when posting on the forums. Failure to remain respectful of all community members will result in a temporary ban from the forums.

    Please read and abide by the forum rules going forward.

    Thanks!

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