Pvp is ruining SOT

@nofears-fun said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

@savagetwinky said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

@personalc0ffee said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

@savagetwinky No they aren't, that's the hardcore PvP'ers who don't want to PvE.

This is not Skull & Bones or Blackwake. There was never a huge emphasis on competitive PvP ever in this game and I don't feel there ever will be.

Because it encourages griefing and bad, disgusting, toxic behavior. (See every competitive esport title here)

This is complete nonsense. I'm not even sure who you are responding to. And aggressive players have been leaving.

The only players that leave are the ones that want something from the game that it is not and never will be. Generally those are the people that want PvP only or PvE only. Their vision is clouded by their own desires for the game rather than embracing what it actually is.

No... people who want fun world pvp also leave.

I generally am a PvE first player that will take part in PvP when it comes to me. But that isn't all there is to my game. There have been plenty of days, especially lately (mostly because I am sick of hearing about how dead PvP is, so I go out and do it to prove that they are wrong, and I have not been disappointed with the results as it very much still exists, you just need to be patient to find it), when I go all PvP and have a blast doing it.

PvP is dead. It doesn't happen naturally... as your sitting here saying you have to go out of your way to find it and just hunt other players down... there are occasionally new players that attack but mostly they are minor annoyances. It's not an optimal experience especially for galleon crews where people avoid you like the plague because most of the ships on any server are sloops.

I see the game for what it is, a sandbox where anything can and usually will happen. As a result I enjoy this game immensely, as do most people I come in contact with.

Right, but that doesn't mean it works well. The sandbox is shallow. The PvE is shallow. Those are facts. The PvP has to be forced and its complete hit or miss on a galleon and you have to force yourself to play an inferior experience with a smaller ship because many people opt for solo/duo sloops.

This OP started as a venting of frustration because of the PVP freedoms in place. It has since been championed by someone who claims to"attack everyone I see". If the irony is not lost there, then are the posts just to complain that the game is not exactly what you would like it to be? It is topics like this one, and the "take cross play out to keep us away from cheating pc players that have K/M advantage" that almost keep me from reading and posting on the forums. Almost...

I will agree that there are some PVE mechanics missing from a purely PVE type game, and that there are some PVP mechanics missing from a purely PVP type game. It is a balancing act that is not easily achieved, as commented on daily here in the forums. Just because the game will never be either, doesn't mean that it is failing at both.

I will agree that there seems to be fewer aggressive players on the seas. And that the ones that are still there, seem to be relentless in the pursuit of a battle, or just looking to sink every ship they can find. I think that if Rare took the PVP angle of "fighting over loot" to make PVP more rewarding for that crowd, that it would only alienate further those like the person who started this thread. It would foster attacking every ship seen by those wanting more PVP, and deepen the feeling of what those looking only to complete voyages/commendations see as "griefing".

Now on to my own survey. Conducted by me. During hundreds of hours of game play. Most people in game, are out there with a goal in mind. Trying to obtain some piece of limited time loot, obtain legend status, complete an Athena's voyage, whatever. At those times, the last thing that those people want, is to lose the supplies/animal crates/loot and start the whole process over. Not all of us have another 2, 3, 4 hours to start that process over again. So they sail carefully. Keep a weathered eye out, so to speak. It doesn't mean that they aren't capable of a fight. It just means that they may not want to risk the work already put in.

Not everyone looking for the ability to complete a voyage, nor anyone looking for constant great battles with others on the seas are going to find what they want. There are hundreds of other games to try that might help them find the experience they are looking for. For me? I like this game. I like the balance it has. I like the, forgive me, all of you that hate this reference to the game play, grind. I like the fighting with other ships. I like the necessity of a good crew working together that makes PVP successful. The tension that exists simply because of the fact that there are aggressive players out there makes it fun for me.

@savagetwinky said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

@cotu42 said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

@savagetwinky said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

People come and go, as someone that has PvP'd from the beginning my experience on the PvP end has become lackluster because mostly anyone good has left the game or is disinterested in playing it. You missed that distinction. Being apart of a galleon crew there just aren't as many galleons's around that can put up a fight. And sloops generally don't want to. However, the vast majority of people do not engage in PvP often enough to get good at it so you end up with a situation where someone can lose hours of progress because of PvP. I think part of my experience is being on a galleon where the majority of ships on any server now are smaller ships.

The game's current implementation of PvP has turned into undermining someone else's progress. There isn't enough focus on loot for PvP... the voyage system just doesn't construct that type of game. Its completely hit or miss if someone has loot... I mean most of my PvP night's nowadays is just us decorating our ship with Athena crates from other ships, getting their crews to join us and getting them killed, or releasing them on an island and hunting them down. This issue only got exasperated with cooperative events because there is nothing to gain for PvP there.

edit: rereading your post again its clear you didn't understand what I've said or it wasn't clear. I didn't say "no one wants to put up a fight". I said willing and CAN are mostly rare. I haven't been sunk off guard in a while. I've been sunk by 4 crews total in 3 months of play. I remember each of the situations. They all held there own in combat where we were the aggressor, except for one crew of try hards that were stream snipers. The vast majority of PvPing I do doesn't feel good. It feels like borderline griefing. I'm salty because the game is not well structured for fun engaging PvP. I don't get chased, we don't run. We killed 4 alliance ships in a row on stock resources at a fort...

So, in short my reading in between the lines is correct: You would like a way that PvP is more rewarding to give an incentive to the community to become better pirates when it comes to PvP, while the whole 'work with other crew' mentality is creating a too peaceful environment. - Just to point out your original post really does not reflect this.

No. That's not at all what I said, which is why it doesn't reflect my original post. You're not reading between lines... your making stuff up.

I am asking you for clarity, as the 'game mechanics don't flow together' does not get conveyed properly, as you are just making the statement but then blame play styles of players and well yeah most people are not going to play purely aggressive all the time. Which is why I am trying to understand what your point is or how the game mechanics are not flowing together.

I did not miss the distinction you had made there at all, as I mentioned: "Though there are clear differences in skill levels and a fun fight can be hard to come by." We have somewhat of an agreement on that and I would love to have like a Bounty system or something to give people a reason to go out on to the sea and PvP. As I too felt so rusty after the three weeks of skeleton ships: "Lets be in an Alliance" event, that I actually told my crew that for a couple of sessions I no longer would be the 'friendly legend' or 'reasonable legend' but the 'blood crazed legend'.

If you didn't miss the distinction then you wouldn't have argued that I was somehow contradicting myself. That distinction makes the two scenarios possible. PvE'rs and solo/duo crews are the ones that seem to stick around the longest and are the most competent while aggressive players don't stay to reach PL and never mature their skills.. so its a lopsided range of players. I also didn't say PvP is the reason that the game is being ruined... that was the OP.

You are making a fundamental flaw to think people play only one way. Maybe the reason why the PvEers are competent. A lot of people change up their styles based on who they are playing with, how many of their friends are online, their mood etc. You are trying to clump everyone into a PvE or PvP camp - why are they exclusive?

Also, again you are making assumptions about groups of people based on what data (your own experience) 'cause mine is clearly different than yours (might be because I change my play style more).

And no, I wouldn't agree a bounty system is worthwhile. I don't want a separate arbitrary reason to pvp. I want the pirate game and world PvP that allows us to fight over loot. I want the voyage mechanics redesigned a little to better facilitate players engaging each other more often in the normal course of PvE. Something that can foster healthy competition over loot instead of it feeling like you just screwing over someone's progress.

The reason I am making a suggestion to add something to the game to enable people that like to go out and hunt a reason - 'cause one of the major aspects of not going out to hunt is due to the fact that it is far more efficient to go out and do voyages? Though you shoot that idea down quite quickly.

You want the games voyage system to be redesigned to create more PvP while making it feel less like screwing someone over: Well... how would that work? That is what I am trying to get you to spell out instead of people having to 'read between the lines' to figure out what it is your are talking about. What feature or adjustment would be required?

How does the current system:

1. Pirate goes on voyages to collect loot. (PvE)
2. Pirate can go and steal loot form other pirates doing voyages. (PvP)
3. Pirate can head to a server event (fort/skeleton ships) to fight for loot and combat other pirates that had the same idea. (PvE / PvP)

Not work together properly?

You do not actually give any information regarding the issue you feel so strongly about.

I also do believe that just playing on a Galleon is not helping your cravings for difficult engaging PvP. It is the strongest PvP vessel out there due to the simple fact that the crew can do 4 things at the same time - especially when coordinated it can feel like an unstoppable force. Not to mention it is the ship that can take the biggest beating before going down.

For that reason also most people do not want to engage in a battle with it. When I personally get engaged by a galleon while on a sloop I only take the battle if I have rocks/shallows around that I can use to my advantage, else I head to such a location to have the battle there (if they are persistent). The other two vessels are far more prone that a mistake leads to your demise. That increases the excitement level and satisfaction level (at least for me) on a PvP difficulty end.

It is also the most fun requiring the most teamwork. Which means maybe there is a problem with matchmaking having too many sloops or maybe too many antisocial people in a teamwork based game on sloops.

People want to play with the people they know and choose smaller ships more often, so therefore you will encounter smaller ships more often. Also, I dabble in the random crews and in my experience it is far nicer to pick a sloop or brigantine in those cases as finding 1 or 2 people that communicate and are kind is far easier than getting a full four man going (especially as a Galleon is far more reliant on the crew actually working together to be any way near decent). This results in that less Galleons are out there on the open seas.

Though to be honest, you cannot make statements like: "mostly anyone good has left the game or is disinterested in playing it." - How do you know? 'cause your friends left? Due to the limited players you have encountered in your sessions that you actually fought?

You could say limited but I fight everyone I encounter. Again 4 crews in total put up a worthwhile fight in 3 months. The vast majority of players we encounter are newish or inexperience in pvp. Which would suggest Good pvpers don't stick around creating an uneven distribution... Combine that with the fact that its harder to get PvP groups as time goes on means there are less people availble that want to PvP on a regular basis + a fairly common opinion in that particular circle...

You are limiting the types of engagements that would actually be challenging to you as you only fight with a pre-made 4 man crew: which is just frankly the strongest type of crew you can have. Sure running a galleon requires the most team work, but is also the least challenging in PvP due to the fact that you are or even in numbers/out numbering the others? The number of people you have in a fight really makes a big difference.

These type of statements are based on anecdotal evidence and have no value and tend to rub people the wrong way as you are implying: You are bad 'cause you still play the game and are interested in playing. Not to mention derails the conversation you want to have to begin with, as you have noticed people are replying to these statements that in reality you also cannot back up in any shape or form - as we do not have the data to analyze this properly, it could be very well true however neither of us can say so definitively one way or the other.

That's not what I implied at all, I didn't even hint at people are bad because they are interested in playing. Half the things you're arguing against are concepts I didn't even speak... where are you coming up with this stuff? Reading part of what I said out of context and making the rest up?

You are the one make extremely hard statements: 'majority of the players are newish or inexperience in pvp', 'suggest good pvpers don't stick around', 'mostly anyone good has left the game or is disinterested in playing it' and I have been reading the comments of other people that are responding to your comments, it seems you are just ignoring those.

Making statements about the many, just rubs people the wrong way as the Many most likely reflects on to them or their friends (as they consider them part of the many / average players) and that is how you are implying that they are bad. If you want to have a meaningful discussion - refraining of these type of statements is advisable as it derails the conversation and makes you seem like a little cocky (as you are kind of stating you are in the exclusive: good pvpers group).

I wouldn't entirely call it anecdotal though. Experience isn't necessarily anecdotal and I've fought many many people, with many people that like to PvP and fight on sight all the time. And I play with random pre made aggressive players often.

This is a pretty common experience I have on a regular basis and a pretty shared experience with everyone I play with as well as the new people that rotate in to replace people that are disinterested and come back less and less.

You might want to understand what anecdotal evidence is:

• Anecdotal evidence is based on hearsay rather than hard facts.
• Anecdotal evidence can be defined as testimony that something is true, false, related, or unrelated based on isolated examples of someone's personal experience.

Therefore your own experience and the experience of others you play with, is the definition of anecdotal evidence. Where are the hard facts?

@letslipthedogs said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

They did sunk us

1. grammer, they did sunk us?
2. you need to be prepared to either fight or run and must watch out in case someone who you've teamed with decides they want everything and kills you.

@cotu42 said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

I am asking you for clarity, as the 'game mechanics don't flow together' does not get conveyed properly, as you are just making the statement but then blame play styles of players and well yeah most people are not going to play purely aggressive all the time. Which is why I am trying to understand what your point is or how the game mechanics are not flowing together.

And I didn't the only state that, I pointed to multiple aspects where PvP is more of a way to undermine progress and less about the fun of contesting and fighting over loot.

You are making a fundamental flaw to think people play only one way. Maybe the reason why the PvEers are competent. A lot of people change up their styles based on who they are playing with, how many of their friends are online, their mood etc. You are trying to clump everyone into a PvE or PvP camp - why are they exclusive?

I never suggested that people play only one way. But people have proclivities and may enjoy one over the other more often.

Also, again you are making assumptions about groups of people based on what data (your own experience) 'cause mine is clearly different than yours (might be because I change my play style more).

And I pointed out I'm viewing this through the lens of a heavy PvPer on a galleon and the general opinion of the people I play with and how often we fight competent players.

The reason I am making a suggestion to add something to the game to enable people that like to go out and hunt a reason - 'cause one of the major aspects of not going out to hunt is due to the fact that it is far more efficient to go out and do voyages? Though you shoot that idea down quite quickly.

Yes, because I think its a bad idea, shifting the focus on voyaging and getting into PvP based on happenstance vs hunting other players down. They are different games or a completely different way of playing.

You want the games voyage system to be redesigned to create more PvP while making it feel less like screwing someone over: Well... how would that work? That is what I am trying to get you to spell out instead of people having to 'read between the lines' to figure out what it is you are talking about. What feature or adjustment would be required?

How does the current system:

1. Pirate goes on voyages to collect loot. (PvE)
2. Pirate can go and steal loot form other pirates doing voyages. (PvP)
3. Pirate can head to a server event (fort/skeleton ships) to fight for loot and combat other pirates that had the same idea. (PvE / PvP)

Not work together properly?

You do not actually give any information regarding the issue you feel so strongly about.

Actually, I did point at specifics already... And you pointing at extremely high-level designs without specifics... for instance how well does point 2 work and how fun or engaging is point 1 if point 2 doesn't entice players to go out of their or completely undermines point 1 or other efforts... Is there a way to restructure 1 and 2 to better weight both components and make them a smoother and more natural experience? Probably!

Athena's / Weekly events don't entirely fit that model. In those particular cases, PvP stops progression. You don't quite get the same feeling on voyages because you don't need to finish them to get loot, but they are still independent so you have to go out of your way for PvP.

I didn't give a design, I provided a design principle. I don't need to propose a design in order to point out a principle I think the devs and the game should aim for.

People want to play with the people they know and choose smaller ships more often, so therefore you will encounter smaller ships more often. Also, I dabble in the random crews and in my experience it is far nicer to pick a sloop or brigantine in those cases as finding 1 or 2 people that communicate and are kind is far easier than getting a full four-man going (especially as a Galleon is far more reliant on the crew actually working together to be anyway near decent). This results in that fewer Galleons are out there on the open seas.

I understand how probability works.

ME: problem with matchmaking having too many sloops or maybe too many antisocial people in a teamwork based game on sloops

You could adjust matchmaking to try to group similar sized ships or find a way to encourage more galleons. Only 1 of those tries to change player behavior.

You are the one make extremely hard statements: 'majority of the players are newish or inexperience in pvp', 'suggest good pvpers don't stick around', 'mostly anyone good has left the game or is disinterested in playing it' and I have been reading the comments of other people that are responding to your comments, it seems you are just ignoring those.

statements aren't "hard". And I ignore them because they aren't really arguing against it... there is nothing to really address... they just say 'nuh uh you can't prove it your evidence is anecdotal'. And I also pointed out its not entirely anecdotal evidence.

Making statements about the many, just rubs people the wrong way as the Many most likely reflects on to them or their friends (as they consider them part of the many / average players) and that is how you are implying that they are bad. If you want to have a meaningful discussion - refraining of these type of statements is advisable as it derails the conversation and makes you seem like a little cocky (as you are kind of stating you are in the exclusive: good pvpers group).

No there is no implication here. You tried to explain probability to me... now let me explain it to you... if we are perceiving a high turn over rate... and expect larger amounts of players to be new or inexperienced with PvP... the probability of running into skilled players become less and less.

So stop it. There is no implication that good/average players are bad... the point I am making is they have become rarer.

You might want to understand what anecdotal evidence is:

• Anecdotal evidence is based on hearsay rather than hard facts.
• Anecdotal evidence can be defined as testimony that something is true, false, related, or unrelated based on isolated examples of someone's personal experience.

Therefore your own experience and the experience of others you play with, is the definition of anecdotal evidence. Where are the hard facts?

No that's not the definition of anecdotal. Otherwise, surveys based on people's opinions would be by definition anecdotal. What my point isn't, is precise. I can't tell you how much of a problem is really there but there is a problem. There has been a lot of turn over of players especially in the groups that enjoy more PvP.

I mean how do you think "hard facts" are gathered when it involves a general opinion? By asking... How can you start to figure out the probability of meeting skilled players... join games and attack people... That would essentially be a blind study. Not to mention the amount of reoccuring complaints... I haven't strictly logged my results or exactly how many people I've collected data on but I haven't heard a different version... apart from people that are on sloops and are more likely to be attacked... which I've already pointed my PoV is coming mostly from a galleon crew. But no real alternative view is being given... everyone just keeps saying it's impossible to say.

@savagetwinky said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

@cotu42 said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

I am asking you for clarity, as the 'game mechanics don't flow together' does not get conveyed properly, as you are just making the statement but then blame play styles of players and well yeah most people are not going to play purely aggressive all the time. Which is why I am trying to understand what your point is or how the game mechanics are not flowing together.

And I didn't the only state that, I pointed to multiple aspects where PvP is more of a way to undermine progress and less about the fun of contesting and fighting over loot.

You are making a fundamental flaw to think people play only one way. Maybe the reason why the PvEers are competent. A lot of people change up their styles based on who they are playing with, how many of their friends are online, their mood etc. You are trying to clump everyone into a PvE or PvP camp - why are they exclusive?

I never suggested that people play only one way. But people have proclivities and may enjoy one over the other more often.

Also, again you are making assumptions about groups of people based on what data (your own experience) 'cause mine is clearly different than yours (might be because I change my play style more).

And I pointed out I'm viewing this through the lens of a heavy PvPer on a galleon and the general opinion of the people I play with and how often we fight competent players.

The reason I am making a suggestion to add something to the game to enable people that like to go out and hunt a reason - 'cause one of the major aspects of not going out to hunt is due to the fact that it is far more efficient to go out and do voyages? Though you shoot that idea down quite quickly.

Yes, because I think its a bad idea, shifting the focus on voyaging and getting into PvP based on happenstance vs hunting other players down. They are different games or a completely different way of playing.

Well, it matters how this is implemented: having a balance based on bounties being PvP stat related; having a cool down on the killing the same players over and over again; etc. can all have influence on the effect of such a system. It creates a feedback loop to ensure that people attack and move on to avoid the non-stop attack on the same players and give people a reason to go out and attack that ship that is doing a voyage right next to you other than 'maybe he has loot'.

Also, this doesn't change the way of playing as there already people going out into the sea to hunt players. Having a system like this has the benefit of awarding those players for their play style ('cause aren't these your hard-core PvP friend that are leaving the game?) while also awarding the defending team if they manage to fend off the attack. Resulting in less people feeling bad about being forced into a PvP situation.

That is my point of view on a system like that, though by all means would require testing to not just be the main means of gaining gold. Maybe people on the server are set into a ladder based on the other people on the server, lowest stated player: 50 gold and moving up 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000, 1100, 1200, 1300, 1400, 1500 or maybe have it go up over time and everyone starts at 50 gold with a max of 1500 after accomplishing things in the game, so the longer on a server the more worth you become (compensating for the fact that your ship is better stocked with CBB or what not) there a couple of things that one could think of on how to limit the rewards (which would be required for the balance of the economy).

You want the games voyage system to be redesigned to create more PvP while making it feel less like screwing someone over: Well... how would that work? That is what I am trying to get you to spell out instead of people having to 'read between the lines' to figure out what it is you are talking about. What feature or adjustment would be required?

How does the current system:

1. Pirate goes on voyages to collect loot. (PvE)
2. Pirate can go and steal loot form other pirates doing voyages. (PvP)
3. Pirate can head to a server event (fort/skeleton ships) to fight for loot and combat other pirates that had the same idea. (PvE / PvP)

Not work together properly?

You do not actually give any information regarding the issue you feel so strongly about.

Actually, I did point at specifics already... And you pointing at extremely high-level designs without specifics... for instance how well does point 2 work and how fun or engaging is point 1 if point 2 doesn't entice players to go out of their or completely undermines point 1 or other efforts... Is there a way to restructure 1 and 2 to better weight both components and make them a smoother and more natural experience? Probably!

Well, I personally think point 2 could really use some work. With the development of cargo missions I already believe there is some improvements being made to point 1 to make it more engaging.

Athena's / Weekly events don't entirely fit that model. In those particular cases, PvP stops progression. You don't quite get the same feeling on voyages because you don't need to finish them to get loot, but they are still independent so you have to go out of your way for PvP.

Athena's are voyages, just longer ones. Weekly events well, can be anything but tend to be more friendly than not. With point three I was more referring to Skull Forts and the new Skeleton Ships that appear.

I didn't give a design, I provided a design principle. I don't need to propose a design in order to point out a principle I think the devs and the game should aim for.

Well, could you provide more insight of what this principle, as to me it seems they already have that in the form of Skull Forts and Skeleton Ships. How would you apply your principle in a fashion to regular voyages? I have been really trying to get a grasp of your principle would come to volition in the game other than 'more fight', 'less making people feel like loss of progression' ... wait a minute doesn't my idea sort of meet those check boxes? You claim no.. so maybe elaborating and give people some insight to what you are talking about. - I have asked you 'cause I am trying to understand your point and you claim I am describing the game at a high level while you are even like 3 levels higher than that as it is a principle, not even an idea or anything tangible.

People want to play with the people they know and choose smaller ships more often, so therefore you will encounter smaller ships more often. Also, I dabble in the random crews and in my experience it is far nicer to pick a sloop or brigantine in those cases as finding 1 or 2 people that communicate and are kind is far easier than getting a full four-man going (especially as a Galleon is far more reliant on the crew actually working together to be anyway near decent). This results in that fewer Galleons are out there on the open seas.

I understand how probability works.

ME: problem with matchmaking having too many sloops or maybe too many antisocial people in a teamwork based game on sloops

You could adjust matchmaking to try to group similar sized ships or find a way to encourage more galleons. Only 1 of those tries to change player behavior.

Similar sizes for matchmaking would make it that all ships on the server are the same, I personally love that we have variety and wouldn't want to always be clumped up with the same size ships (even though that would balance PvP a bit) - as that would also take away the excitement, threat and challenge of taking on bigger ships.

Encourage more galleons, I never mind encouragement if done properly. Would not be against this - I personally am more bound by my mates being online than a specific ship type for the size ship I ride on the waves.

You are the one make extremely hard statements: 'majority of the players are newish or inexperience in pvp', 'suggest good pvpers don't stick around', 'mostly anyone good has left the game or is disinterested in playing it' and I have been reading the comments of other people that are responding to your comments, it seems you are just ignoring those.

statements aren't "hard". And I ignore them because they aren't really arguing against it... there is nothing to really address... they just say 'nuh uh you can't prove it your evidence is anecdotal'. And I also pointed out its not entirely anecdotal evidence.

Making statements about the many, just rubs people the wrong way as the Many most likely reflects on to them or their friends (as they consider them part of the many / average players) and that is how you are implying that they are bad. If you want to have a meaningful discussion - refraining of these type of statements is advisable as it derails the conversation and makes you seem like a little cocky (as you are kind of stating you are in the exclusive: good pvpers group).

No there is no implication here. You tried to explain probability to me... now let me explain it to you... if we are perceiving a high turn over rate... and expect larger amounts of players to be new or inexperienced with PvP... the probability of running into skilled players become less and less.

So stop it. There is no implication that good/average players are bad... the point I am making is they have become rarer.

Unless you are monitoring the sales and active player accounts and have that data you cannot state anything about the Turn Over Rate of this game. Stop making assumptions based on your own experience. Try backing up your statements with facts or data points instead of your own point of view. You aren't convincing people and is not what they are experiencing. Though when they point out that they disagree with you or that your claims have no foundation - you ignore them or claim that you do have merit 'cause ... who knows you talked to people and played the game.

You might want to understand what anecdotal evidence is:

• Anecdotal evidence is based on hearsay rather than hard facts.
• Anecdotal evidence can be defined as testimony that something is true, false, related, or unrelated based on isolated examples of someone's personal experience.

Therefore your own experience and the experience of others you play with, is the definition of anecdotal evidence. Where are the hard facts?

No that's not the definition of anecdotal. Otherwise, surveys based on people's opinions would be by definition anecdotal. What my point isn't, is precise. I can't tell you how much of a problem is really there but there is a problem. There has been a lot of turn over of players especially in the groups that enjoy more PvP.

I mean how do you think "hard facts" are gathered when it involves a general opinion? By asking... How can you start to figure out the probability of meeting skilled players... join games and attack people... That would essentially be a blind study. Not to mention the amount of reoccuring complaints... I haven't strictly logged my results or exactly how many people I've collected data on but I haven't heard a different version... apart from people that are on sloops and are more likely to be attacked... which I've already pointed my PoV is coming mostly from a galleon crew. But no real alternative view is being given... everyone just keeps saying it's impossible to say.

There is a big difference between anecdotal evidence as you are providing and surveys. How I believe facts are gathered regarding opinions (which btw are never Hard Facts as they can change over time, but do have merit if done properly) is through a Survey. Btw. you might want to google the definition before stating that I am wrong.

However surveys are setup with care, have a decent sample size, have a specific scope, record their finding in order to provide data points and can find correlations between them which they report on - usually after which it goes through a peer review to validate any of these findings. In other words, they have records, include information regarding the parameters in order to be trust worthy and have merit. These are key differences between your anecdotal evidence is 'I play the game' and 'I talk to people' so what I am stating has merit. You even point out yourself: that you have no logs or recorded data and that this is your point of view which has a very narrow scope; 4-man pre-made galleon crews.

I even state above that my view is different than yours, however I am not going to claim that my perspective of the game is fact.

@cotu42 said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

Well, it matters how this is implemented: having a balance based on bounties being PvP stat related; having a cool down on the killing the same players over and over again; etc. can all have influence on the effect of such a system. It creates a feedback loop to ensure that people attack and move on to avoid the non-stop attack on the same players and give people a reason to go out and attack that ship that is doing a voyage right next to you other than 'maybe he has loot'.

Also, this doesn't change the way of playing as there already people going out into the sea to hunt players. Having a system like this has the benefit of awarding those players for their play style ('cause aren't these your hard-core PvP friend that are leaving the game?) while also awarding the defending team if they manage to fend off the attack. Resulting in less people feeling bad about being forced into a PvP situation.

That is my point of view on a system like that, though by all means would require testing to not just be the main means of gaining gold. Maybe people on the server are set into a ladder based on the other people on the server, lowest stated player: 50 gold and moving up 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000, 1100, 1200, 1300, 1400, 1500 or maybe have it go up over time and everyone starts at 50 gold with a max of 1500 after accomplishing things in the game, so the longer on a server the more worth you become (compensating for the fact that your ship is better stocked with CBB or what not) there a couple of things that one could think of on how to limit the rewards (which would be required for the balance of the economy).

I'm suggesting that play style isn't necessarily good. Bounty systems are a bandaid because the PvP failed to center around loot properly. I see that as a failing of the game design. I'm not looking for an incentive to go out of the way to gank someone... I'm suggesting they should build a design to create contested loot more often. If there is a Rank it should be based on loot somehow to make sure that is the focus.

And I never said my hardcore pvp friends have been leaving. I'm not speaking of people that only pvp exclusively. I don't' think many of them are left. They just want more PvP to happen without having to go out of your way constantly for it...

Athena's are voyages, just longer ones. Weekly events well, can be anything but tend to be more friendly than not. With point three I was more referring to Skull Forts and the new Skeleton Ships that appear.

Athena's are voyages but you can essentially fail them if you lose the animal crates... and you need to finish the Athena's to get the chest for credit. So PvP can directly affect your ability to finish a long task. It's unlike normal voyaging where you can gather chests a lose them. The reason why voyaging feels like your losing progress is because your not gathering chests in a competitive way... you just gathering chests to rank up, so when they are stolen... someone went out of the way to sail to you, kill you, take your loot... this puts their voyages on hold so there is an opportunity cost, its not exactly a straight benefit to doing so. It's not something that is inherent to the design of voyages.

Same with events, events generally don't center around loot and people are trying to accomplish a goal not gather loot.

I ignored point 3 because I'm fine with forts/ships... but they aren't the core game loop, they don't happen often. Unfortunetly since loot seems to drop off in value so do forts and ships.

Well, could you provide more insight of what this principle, as to me it seems they already have that in the form of Skull Forts and Skeleton Ships. How would you apply your principle in a fashion to regular voyages? I have been really trying to get a grasp of your principle would come to volition in the game other than 'more fight', 'less making people feel like loss of progression' ... wait a minute doesn't my idea sort of meet those check boxes? You claim no.. so maybe elaborating and give people some insight to what you are talking about. - I have asked you 'cause I am trying to understand your point and you claim I am describing the game at a high level while you are even like 3 levels higher than that as it is a principle, not even an idea or anything tangible.

The design principle is bringing PvP to voyaging. Which doesn't include an external incentive system to go out of your way to fight players... like bounties which are distinctly separate from voyages. And avoiding long/complex tasks that have to be completed before you log off so PvP can't deprive you of progress.

Similar sizes for matchmaking would make it that all ships on the server are the same, I personally love that we have variety and wouldn't want to always be clumped up with the same size ships (even though that would balance PvP a bit) - as that would also take away the excitement, threat, and challenge of taking on bigger ships.

Since when does similar = same? Brigs/Galleons or Sloops/Brigs.

Balance matters.. especially with PvP. Variety isn't fun if you bored killing ships that can't fight back with equally skilled opponents or you can't fight back against equally skilled opponents.

Encourage more galleons, I never mind encouragement if done properly. Would not be against this - I personally am more bound by my mates being online than a specific ship type for the size ship I ride on the waves.

Right, but encouraging 4 people to invest lots of time into the game to need a galleon is the hard part. Part of that is the poorly designed PvPvE system and lack of engaging moment to moment gamplay. Many people just opt for lets see what I can get done quickly to progress.

Unless you are monitoring the sales and active player accounts and have that data you cannot state anything about the Turn Over Rate of this game. Stop making assumptions based on your own experience. Try backing up your statements with facts or data points instead of your own point of view. You aren't convincing people and is not what they are experiencing. Though when they point out that they disagree with you or that your claims have no foundation - you ignore them or claim that you do have merit 'cause ... who knows you talked to people and played the game.

Ughh... have you seen the discords? Or how rapidly twitch streamers dropped this game? Or the fact that they aren't releasing new figures to show how well the game is doing.

There is NO evidence to suggest there isn't a high turn over rate. Even the forum activity has slowed to a crawl and generally and I consistently talk to the same few people... with new faces coming and going... and 2/3 opinions restated over and over again..

1. PvP issues
2. Crossplay issues
3. Lack of loot from kraken/meg

There is a big difference between anecdotal evidence as you are providing and surveys. How I believe facts are gathered regarding opinions (which btw are never Hard Facts as they can change over time, but do have merit if done properly) is through a Survey. Btw. you might want to Google the definition before stating that I am wrong.

I've never stated as fact though. I've only stated my perspective and belief of the state of the game based on my experience playing it and the communities reoccurring issues, popularity on media like twitch, and several now-defunct discords that I've been a part of.

There are real issues, and I believe it's from a poorly designed game with an identity crisis, and lack of engaging moment to moment gameplay.

However surveys are setup with care, have a decent sample size, have a specific scope, record their finding in order to provide data points and can find correlations between them which they report on - usually after which it goes through a peer review to validate any of these findings. In other words, they have records, include information regarding the parameters in order to be trust worthy and have merit. These are key differences between your anecdotal evidence is 'I play the game' and 'I talk to people' so what I am stating has merit. You even point out yourself: that you have no logs or recorded data and that this is your point of view which has a very narrow scope; 4-man pre-made galleon crews

And I pointed out that my gage the community wouldn't be as precise as a real survey. But to say its innacurate or anectdotal isn't entirely true either. I've played since day 1, the experience the game provides has completely changed, difficulties finding more like minding aggressive players, fairly common opinions with many people I've met trying to get groups going,

I even state above that my view is different than yours, however I am not going to claim that my perspective of the game is fact.

The fact that you still seem to think I've stated anything as fact even after stating it is a perceived pattern based on multiple communities, common stated issues. Everyone keeps telling me it's not true... well based on what? Where is rare pointing out how healthy their game is?

I'm not sure if I was originally talking to you but the comparison to a survey is because in order to get an accurate view of the community doesn't require thousands of people... that was the point of comparing it to a survey... I'm still waiting for a response to tell me why joining and being apart of MANY communities and interacting with MANY crews, and watching them mostly have a high turn over rate / die out doesn't represent the game to some extent. And how fighting MANY people since day 1 and seeing the makeup of server go from many galleons to galleons are rare, and PvP slowing down significantly from game to game lower competency of the majority of people faced, also are not a representation of the player distribution in any way...

If you mostly solo sloop it will be hard to see because you won't be apart of a larger community as often.. you don't need to rely on finding 2-3 other people to play with on a regular basis. Another benefit of being on a galleon crew most of the time... you gain that perspective on the wider community and play with a lot of different people. Your assuming I lost a few friends when in fact I have to make new ones all the time. That is indictive a high turn over rate.

@savagetwinky actually. It has come to us just as much as we have gone to it. Just tonight a galleon came at our galleon and sunk us so to a couple of mistakes we made. So we got our new ship, found them and sunk them. And got a huge payday from them. And no we didn’t use CCB. We used a bording party and excellent cannoneering.

@savagetwinky guess I will just say, think of all the fun you could have had the past couple of weeks instead of stomping your feet because you dont like something. I am really sorry you can’t give it a try. Just being honest when I say I have taken your comments to heart and fully tested everyone of them to see how badly they impact the game and my conclusion is that they have not for the vast majority of the time. Only a couple of times have they made any kind of an impact. I didn’t like the new UI and other than using them on skellies am not a fan of the CCB’s. But I can honestly say I have not seen a major impact. At least not one that is game ending as you keep declaring.

@trickrtreat01 said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

@personalc0ffee said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

@savagetwinky Why do you think they aren't? Because you said so? Because your friends said so?

Well I said they are. So what do you think of that?

Fact: ONLY Rare knows, so you and me, we're speculating.

3 different mega threads about broken barrel UI say so . Hard to pvp when you are stuck looking at a barrel inventory screen.

It's kind of sad that, that thread is on part three... And the only portion patched is the barrels now show 'empty'. Facepalm. Gosh I hope they give us a patch this week for the weekend.

@nofears-fun said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

@savagetwinky guess I will just say, think of all the fun you could have had the past couple of weeks instead of stomping your feet because you dont like something. I am really sorry you can’t give it a try. Just being honest when I say I have taken your comments to heart and fully tested everyone of them to see how badly they impact the game and my conclusion is that they have not for the vast majority of the time. Only a couple of times have they made any kind of an impact. I didn’t like the new UI and other than using them on skellies am not a fan of the CCB’s. But I can honestly say I have not seen a major impact. At least not one that is game ending as you keep declaring.

How long do you think it takes to type this stuff? Past couple of weeks?

I play the game on a regular basis, for me and a lot of people, including PvE players... the game is just missing the mark. 95% of the time is boring monotonous grind and that other 5% is glorious fun.

And I didn't play last night, the reddit community/my communities were basically dead.

@letslipthedogs Well...
This is embarrassing, but to be fair, his mistake was more noticeable

@savagetwinky said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

@cotu42 said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

Well, it matters how this is implemented: having a balance based on bounties being PvP stat related; having a cool down on the killing the same players over and over again; etc. can all have influence on the effect of such a system. It creates a feedback loop to ensure that people attack and move on to avoid the non-stop attack on the same players and give people a reason to go out and attack that ship that is doing a voyage right next to you other than 'maybe he has loot'.

Also, this doesn't change the way of playing as there already people going out into the sea to hunt players. Having a system like this has the benefit of awarding those players for their play style ('cause aren't these your hard-core PvP friend that are leaving the game?) while also awarding the defending team if they manage to fend off the attack. Resulting in less people feeling bad about being forced into a PvP situation.

That is my point of view on a system like that, though by all means would require testing to not just be the main means of gaining gold. Maybe people on the server are set into a ladder based on the other people on the server, lowest stated player: 50 gold and moving up 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000, 1100, 1200, 1300, 1400, 1500 or maybe have it go up over time and everyone starts at 50 gold with a max of 1500 after accomplishing things in the game, so the longer on a server the more worth you become (compensating for the fact that your ship is better stocked with CBB or what not) there a couple of things that one could think of on how to limit the rewards (which would be required for the balance of the economy).

I'm suggesting that play style isn't necessarily good. Bounty systems are a bandaid because the PvP failed to center around loot properly. I see that as a failing of the game design. I'm not looking for an incentive to go out of the way to gank someone... I'm suggesting they should build a design to create contested loot more often. If there is a Rank it should be based on loot somehow to make sure that is the focus.

And I never said my hardcore pvp friends have been leaving. I'm not speaking of people that only pvp exclusively. I don't' think many of them are left. They just want more PvP to happen without having to go out of your way constantly for it...

Athena's are voyages, just longer ones. Weekly events well, can be anything but tend to be more friendly than not. With point three I was more referring to Skull Forts and the new Skeleton Ships that appear.

Athena's are voyages but you can essentially fail them if you lose the animal crates... and you need to finish the Athena's to get the chest for credit. So PvP can directly affect your ability to finish a long task. It's unlike normal voyaging where you can gather chests a lose them. The reason why voyaging feels like your losing progress is because your not gathering chests in a competitive way... you just gathering chests to rank up, so when they are stolen... someone went out of the way to sail to you, kill you, take your loot... this puts their voyages on hold so there is an opportunity cost, its not exactly a straight benefit to doing so. It's not something that is inherent to the design of voyages.

That is why Athena voyages are exactly how you make contested loot and I would love more variety in these. There are ways around the crate issue and builds a safeguard for if you get defeated at sea and lots of people use them (merchant quests gather 8 crates of all and never pick up the Athena quest ones). Though I personally never do it as that what makes an Athena's quests carry value, as you have something to lose (well a lot).

It is actually the only real voyage that encourages PvP in the principle you describe, centering the PvP on loot. As people try to do these as quickly as possible, if they are not speed running, means they have a lot of loot to lose. However, the one type of loot they are carrying that they want the most is pretty much worthless for the attackers namely the crates.

This encourages people to go out of their way to engage with another crew, for the sole purpose of the fact they are carrying a lot of loot or maybe even the Legendary Chest! So, centered around their possible Bounty. Now, I have been sunk while on an Athena's. This one time is a prime example of why this is actual a great way of voyages encouraging PvP for the purpose of treasure.

One of those times the Merchant quests were at the very end of the quest line and I am a sucker for efficiency, so we had all the Athena's loot on the ship and were busy with the last Gold Hoarder's x marks the spot maps.

Now, we hadn't seen anyone in like 30 mins and became too relaxed. So, instead of leaving one guy on the ship, we both went out to dig up treasure (were 2 man sloop). Guess what, another sloop passed by while we were at the other end of the island and we hear cannon fire... So, we rush to the ship, manage to get on and kill one of the dudes that was on board. Though, we were being bombarded by cannon fire and my buddy got hit in the face.... so, we sunk.

We spawn on the ship and B line it to Cannon Cove! I see the other ship is heading straight at us, with all our loot on board and the only thing I shout at them through the horn is: "DID YOU GRAB THE CRATES?" while passing them at full speed heading to where we sunk. Guess what... they took everything, but the crates. So, we placed them on the ship, dug up the remaining 3 chests, caught us some animals and got ourselves an Athena's chest.

Now, this is one of the few failures I had that had a good outcome, I also had a couple that a cage went missing... which sucks. Though I thankfully have more stories where we see them coming, defeat them or get the hell out 'cause we are done here and s**t we have a ton of stuff on board.

PvP around loot always ends up that someone has to lose, though by having the most precious cargo at the end, the cargo that is most important to achieving it is the least attractive to your competitors is a great design. Sadly it is the only one of its type and I wish they would add more of this for Legends, that have mastered the basic voyages. I wouldn't even mind if it would be less time consuming but harder to do making a more efficient way is balanced properly with difficulty level / risk of engaging with other pirates.

Same with events, events generally don't center around loot and people are trying to accomplish a goal not gather loot.

I ignored point 3 because I'm fine with forts/ships... but they aren't the core game loop, they don't happen often. Unfortunetly since loot seems to drop off in value so do forts and ships.

Well, my experience is that people lay low on Forts at the start of the event, they have something new to do and steadily people start doing them again.

Now, the fact that they don't spawn at the same time, as less people are interested in fighting over as crews have the tendency to share the loot (Alliances) reduces the PvP aspect of it, even for Forts and this affects it more in my opinion than the loot value. Time spend is reduced so less time for people to show up, on top of they aren't fighting each other - extending the time frame.

Well, could you provide more insight of what this principle, as to me it seems they already have that in the form of Skull Forts and Skeleton Ships. How would you apply your principle in a fashion to regular voyages? I have been really trying to get a grasp of your principle would come to volition in the game other than 'more fight', 'less making people feel like loss of progression' ... wait a minute doesn't my idea sort of meet those check boxes? You claim no.. so maybe elaborating and give people some insight to what you are talking about. - I have asked you 'cause I am trying to understand your point and you claim I am describing the game at a high level while you are even like 3 levels higher than that as it is a principle, not even an idea or anything tangible.

The design principle is bringing PvP to voyaging. Which doesn't include an external incentive system to go out of your way to fight players... like bounties which are distinctly separate from voyages. And avoiding long/complex tasks that have to be completed before you log off so PvP can't deprive you of progress.

Now I disagree with not promoting a style some people enjoy, I just think it should never be the most profitable for your time invested and give a reward to the people that are forced in that situation 'cause they meet people that enjoy the sinking for practice or I don't really know, 'cause I honestly don't get it reasoning. Though you don't want it to be a way to make a quick buck, as that would drive people to it - it should never be the best way to farm gold or anything else really. Reset it each session, make it based on what you have done / how long you are playing during that session even, which can be viewed in the taverns, so people can have a 'score' at the end of their session to see how much they achieved. While also giving them a small reward if they fend of the pirates that were out for their bounty.

Don't know that idea has always appealed to me, as I believe bounties should be a thing in a pirate game.

Similar sizes for matchmaking would make it that all ships on the server are the same, I personally love that we have variety and wouldn't want to always be clumped up with the same size ships (even though that would balance PvP a bit) - as that would also take away the excitement, threat, and challenge of taking on bigger ships.

Since when does similar = same? Brigs/Galleons or Sloops/Brigs.

Well, if you aren't talking about ship sizes, aka number of pirates on a ship, what do you mean?

I actually wouldn't be surprised if their matchmaking pushes for an even distribution of ship types on a server, but just simply enough there so many Brigs / Sloops around that servers are filled up with them quicker than the supply of Galleons that are joining. I believe is they push for a different balance than that it will just make the chances of finding a good server more volatile and less consistent.

Balance matters.. especially with PvP. Variety isn't fun if you bored killing ships that can't fight back with equally skilled opponents or you can't fight back against equally skilled opponents.

Encourage more galleons, I never mind encouragement if done properly. Would not be against this - I personally am more bound by my mates being online than a specific ship type for the size ship I ride on the waves.

Right, but encouraging 4 people to invest lots of time into the game to need a galleon is the hard part. Part of that is the poorly designed PvPvE system and lack of engaging moment to moment gamplay. Many people just opt for lets see what I can get done quickly to progress.

Which is why I wouldn't mind more team play voyages that are just as rewarding (different type of Legendary voyages), but less time intensive. As long as you actually make it possible to lose (like possible, but hard and time intensive if done alone) and that working with a crew actually makes it easier and quicker to do (emphasize team play on the island).

This would encourage larger crews and smaller crews if you are up for a PvE challenge.
Therefore promote people to play with more people in their crew (more player interaction, as your crew is a large part of that). That is why I like their current philosophy of player interaction, as long as they remember promoting galleons is not a bad thing as currently they could use a bit of a boost in value - This balance is hard to achieve as people tend to try and min/max their playtime. Requesting people to invest more time is just something one cannot do, 'cause they most likely would love to play more but you know life.

Unless you are monitoring the sales and active player accounts and have that data you cannot state anything about the Turn Over Rate of this game. Stop making assumptions based on your own experience. Try backing up your statements with facts or data points instead of your own point of view. You aren't convincing people and is not what they are experiencing. Though when they point out that they disagree with you or that your claims have no foundation - you ignore them or claim that you do have merit 'cause ... who knows you talked to people and played the game.

Ughh... have you seen the discords? Or how rapidly twitch streamers dropped this game? Or the fact that they aren't releasing new figures to show how well the game is doing.

This game is not really great for twitch, as people want entertaining, usually quicker game-play (action) when viewing twitch. It is the reason why in like Fortnite and other battle royal games the streamers push, play aggressive and go for the meme plays. That is how they attract viewers, just playing safe reaching end game with 0 or 1 kills is just not that entertaining. Sea of Thieves is a too slow and casual game in comparison.

So, for streamers, unlike YouTubers, the consistency in which one can provide high action game play and entertainment is important. YouTubers like Captain Falcore are growing, while their main content is Sea of Thieves. This has all to do with how the content is created. YouTubers can take a couple of hours of game play and make a 20 min video out of it. How many Streaming views is not the only factor in determining the player base and the stability of it.

There is NO evidence to suggest there isn't a high turn over rate. Even the forum activity has slowed to a crawl and generally and I consistently talk to the same few people... with new faces coming and going... and 2/3 opinions restated over and over again..

1. PvP issues
2. Crossplay issues
3. Lack of loot from kraken/meg

1. There are some tweaks to be made regarding balance, we both agree on that - just my views differ slightly from yours.
2. I personally disagree on this point, now I am not saying there isn't any difference. Though this game is doing a good job of implementing it (and I believe it is the way forward for the game industry) and they are consistently working on making the gap as small as possible. I play with people on both platforms and some of my best crew members play on the xBox. The platform gap is small enough to overcome, does it make it easier on pc in some regards - yes - however it is also just different (a console player will most likely out perform themselves on their own platform compared to a PC) and console players might not realize the benefit of hap-tic feedback (though the impact is smaller) the other way around. Thankfully this is not a competitive game, as at that point the smallest gap makes a world of difference as we are talking about the best players in the world, usually with more on the line than some treasure.
3. It would be nice if you would get something, at the moment they are more annoying (kraken) or pretty and occasionally take a bite out of your ship.

There is a big difference between anecdotal evidence as you are providing and surveys. How I believe facts are gathered regarding opinions (which btw are never Hard Facts as they can change over time, but do have merit if done properly) is through a Survey. Btw. you might want to Google the definition before stating that I am wrong.

I've never stated as fact though. I've only stated my perspective and belief of the state of the game based on my experience playing it and the communities reoccurring issues, popularity on media like twitch, and several now-defunct discords that I've been a part of.

There are real issues, and I believe it's from a poorly designed game with an identity crisis, and lack of engaging moment to moment gameplay.

However surveys are setup with care, have a decent sample size, have a specific scope, record their finding in order to provide data points and can find correlations between them which they report on - usually after which it goes through a peer review to validate any of these findings. In other words, they have records, include information regarding the parameters in order to be trust worthy and have merit. These are key differences between your anecdotal evidence is 'I play the game' and 'I talk to people' so what I am stating has merit. You even point out yourself: that you have no logs or recorded data and that this is your point of view which has a very narrow scope; 4-man pre-made galleon crews

And I pointed out that my gage the community wouldn't be as precise as a real survey. But to say its innacurate or anectdotal isn't entirely true either. I've played since day 1, the experience the game provides has completely changed, difficulties finding more like minding aggressive players, fairly common opinions with many people I've met trying to get groups going,

I am not even stating it is not true, what I am stating is that it is your point of view and that point of view might be 100% true, 80% true or less. However it doesn't change the fact that evidence is something else than speaking the truth. Therefore I advise not to make such statements - which I have explained why, as people feel you are forcing your point of view on to them while they might see it from a different perspective without the evidence to back it up. Changing someones view point based on what we call anecdotal evidence which is what it is is extremely hard, regardless of how accurate you are. As my experience, though I agree on aspects you are talking about - we have a different perspective on others and I would hate a useful conversation to understand your point of view gets derailed due to those type of statements and resulting in another: You don't know what you are talking about, Go Away, Get Gut and what not conversations.

I even state above that my view is different than yours, however I am not going to claim that my perspective of the game is fact.

The fact that you still seem to think I've stated anything as fact even after stating it is a perceived pattern based on multiple communities, common stated issues. Everyone keeps telling me it's not true... well based on what? Where is rare pointing out how healthy their game is?

Game Companies almost never share publicly their data regarding players. Which is why these type of discussions are common. Why people are telling you that it isn't true - is because that is their point of view, they are using different data points than you.

Why I am stating that you are claiming this are fact due to the way you formulate it and keep trying to back it up with anecdotal evidence and claiming that that evidence is not anecdotal but based on a survey like point of view without any data to back it up.

I'm not sure if I was originally talking to you but the comparison to a survey is because in order to get an accurate view of the community doesn't require thousands of people... that was the point of comparing it to a survey... I'm still waiting for a response to tell me why joining and being apart of MANY communities and interacting with MANY crews, and watching them mostly have a high turn over rate / die out doesn't represent the game to some extent. And how fighting MANY people since day 1 and seeing the makeup of server go from many galleons to galleons are rare, and PvP slowing down significantly from game to game lower competency of the majority of people faced, also are not a representation of the player distribution in any way...

If you mostly solo sloop it will be hard to see because you won't be apart of a larger community as often.. you don't need to rely on finding 2-3 other people to play with on a regular basis. Another benefit of being on a galleon crew most of the time... you gain that perspective on the wider community and play with a lot of different people. Your assuming I lost a few friends when in fact I have to make new ones all the time. That is indictive a high turn over rate.

Now, here is the thing. I have also been playing since day one, I play almost daily, I am part of discord communities, I tend to play in different sized crews and when I don't have friends or just feel like it I actually join the open crew system (mainly to see how other people play and their experiences and experiencing it for myself - I hop around crews till I find someone with a mic and tend to start up a conversation about the game). So, yes I understand your point of view, I even think parts of it are actual issues in the game and is why I am engaged in this conversation.

I do not believe your view is wrong or based on fiction, there is truth to what you say, however based on my own experience I also do not agree with it completely. Based on the people I have talked to, the people I play with and my sessions in the game, as well as just my background and knowledge of game design. We have different views, 'cause we have different experiences and conversations due to when, how we play and who we are as humans. Your experience is not worth less than mine, but I cannot accept yours as fact/irrefutable truth if my experience tells me different and you do not show me what you base your conclusion on so I can evaluate it for myself.

My ideas and view may be flawed or might push the game in the wrong direction according to your views. Though unless you have actual evidence we do not have the same facts in front of us and all we can do is share these views - hopefully without making those type of statements as they cause people to post things like: That's not true, GET GUT, just another hardcore PvPer saying PvP is dead while we just got sunk and what not. Which just aren't benefiting the conversation (risk of being locked).

@trickrtreat01 said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

@personalc0ffee said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

@savagetwinky Why do you think they aren't? Because you said so? Because your friends said so?

Well I said they are. So what do you think of that?

Fact: ONLY Rare knows, so you and me, we're speculating.

3 different mega threads about broken barrel UI say so . Hard to pvp when you are stuck looking at a barrel inventory screen.

It is just a different meta, as everyone has to deal with it. It is more difficult to resupply on bananas, so preparation, position, speed of looting and line of sight become more important. Learn the new limitations, disadvantages and play around them - the ones that benefit from this are the Skeletons they still have an endless supply in their bones not the other pirates.

The reason there 3 Mega Threads, is due to the fact that it frankly due to it having some big issues which should be addressed, so hopefully it is a short lived PvP meta on this aspect.

@cotu42 said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

That is why Athena voyages are exactly how you make contested loot and I would love more variety in these. There are ways around the crate issue and builds a safeguard for if you get defeated at sea and lots of people use them (merchant quests gather 8 crates of all and never pick up the Athena quest ones). Though I personally never do it as that what makes an Athena's quests carry value, as you have something to lose (well a lot).

Athena voyages are factually not contested loot. They can just be broken and having to jump through a hoop pre-farming crates isn't good design. It's stupid.

It is actually the only real voyage that encourages PvP in the principle you describe, centering the PvP on loot. As people try to do these as quickly as possible, if they are not speed running, means they have a lot of loot to lose. However, the one type of loot they are carrying that they want the most is pretty much worthless for the attackers namely the crates.

This encourages people to go out of their way to engage with another crew, for the sole purpose of the fact they are carrying a lot of loot or maybe even the Legendary Chest! So, centered around their possible Bounty. Now, I have been sunk while on an Athena's. This one time is a prime example of why this is actual a great way of voyages encouraging PvP for the purpose of treasure.

No.. how does it center around loot when half the people leave the loot behind and its just a by-product of voyages? They aren't necessary, Athena actually does the exact opposite, it throws tons of loot at you while also making them the least important aspect of the task. And the more people that do athena's the fewer people that need that loot, and it takes so long there is very little incentive to go out of your way while you're committed to doing an athena's.

And as an aggressor, you probably want someone just farming high level GH's or something.. and its still the same problem that the PvP doesn't happen naturally and you have to go out of your way for it.

• snip * dumb story about something interesting that happened.

Nobody is suggesting interesting things don't happen....

Well, my experience is that people lay low on Forts at the start of the event, they have something new to do and steadily people start doing them again.

Now, the fact that they don't spawn at the same time, as less people are interested in fighting over as crews have the tendency to share the loot (Alliances) reduces the PvP aspect of it, even for Forts and this affects it more in my opinion than the loot value. Time spend is reduced so less time for people to show up, on top of they aren't fighting each other - extending the time frame.

We camp forts on a regular basis, mostly Friday nights... we role play the skeleton protection agency. Forts are not as active as they were in the beginning. We had to chase people to the fort just to kill them.

Now I disagree with not promoting a style some people enjoy, I just think it should never be the most profitable for your time invested and give a reward to the people that are forced in that situation 'cause they meet people that enjoy the sinking for practice or I don't really know, 'cause I honestly don't get it reasoning. Though you don't want it to be a way to make a quick buck, as that would drive people to it - it should never be the best way to farm gold or anything else really. Reset it each session, make it based on what you have done / how long you are playing during that session even, which can be viewed in the taverns, so people can have a 'score' at the end of their session to see how much they achieved. While also giving them a small reward if they fend of the pirates that were out for their bounty.

Don't know that idea has always appealed to me, as I believe bounties should be a thing in a pirate game.

Why? Thematically it might fit but mechanically your just decreasing the importance of piracy and loot further. Where the PvP should center around piracy and loot... A deathmatch or battle royale mode would be a better idea than bounties... bounties is just death match where only a couple people know they are playing it. It's a terrible idea.

Well, if you aren't talking about ship sizes, aka number of pirates on a ship, what do you mean?

Similar... doesn't mean identical.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if their matchmaking pushes for an even distribution of ship types on a server, but just simply enough there so many Brigs / Sloops around that servers are filled up with them quicker than the supply of Galleons that are joining. I believe is they push for a different balance than that it will just make the chances of finding a good server more volatile and less consistent.

What's your point? If there are 300 people playing with galleons it just means you'll have a lot of familiar faces when playing galleons.

This game is not really great for twitch, as people want entertaining, usually quicker game-play (action) when viewing twitch. It is the reason why in like Fortnite and other battle royal games the streamers push, play aggressive and go for the meme plays. That is how they attract viewers, just playing safe reaching end game with 0 or 1 kills is just not that entertaining. Sea of Thieves is a too slow and casual game in comparison.

So, for streamers, unlike YouTubers, the consistency in which one can provide high action game play and entertainment is important. YouTubers like Captain Falcore are growing, while their main content is Sea of Thieves. This has all to do with how the content is created. YouTubers can take a couple of hours of game play and make a 20 min video out of it. How many Streaming views is not the only factor in determining the player base and the stability of it.

Fortnite doesn't always have that much action. But streamers actually liked playing it... which helped... a lot. I'd be really surprised if YouTubers could use 2 hours of general gameplay footage... there is some leeway with planning on specifically creating a specialized video showing off the sandbox... but YouTubers are probably cutting well over 2 hours worth of gameplay footage to get to interesting points if they are just capturing awesome emergent chaos.

I am not even stating it is not true, what I am stating is that it is your point of view and that point of view might be 100% true, 80% true or less. However it doesn't change the fact that evidence is something else than speaking the truth. Therefore I advise not to make such statements - which I have explained why, as people feel you are forcing your point of view on to them while they might see it from a different perspective without the evidence to back it up. Changing someones view point based on what we call anecdotal evidence which is what it is is extremely hard, regardless of how accurate you are. As my experience, though I agree on aspects you are talking about - we have a different perspective on others and I would hate a useful conversation to understand your point of view gets derailed due to those type of statements and resulting in another: You don't know what you are talking about, Go Away, Get Gut and what not conversations.

I'm not forcing my point of view on everyone. People just keep saying its anecdotal even though I have a ton of time on the game, a ton of time in different communities, a ton of time on a galleon... or outright denying there is any issue... because the game fills the design requirements...

The biggest response I keep geting is restating what the game is supposed to be... which doesn't really counter anything I've said.

Why I am stating that you are claiming this are fact due to the way you formulate it and keep trying to back it up with anecdotal evidence and claiming that that evidence is not anecdotal but based on a survey like point of view without any data to back it up.

No that doesn't mean I'm stating it as fact. But since you don't have any reasonable counter-argument other than no, this is where all of these conversations go. I've pointed to game mechanics, common responses by players, shrinking discord communities, personal experience... multiple points to build a solid perspective.

Now, here is the thing. I have also been playing since day one, I play almost daily, I am part of discord communities, I tend to play in different sized crews and when I don't have friends or just feel like it I actually join the open crew system (mainly to see how other people play and their experiences and experiencing it for myself - I hop around crews till I find someone with a mic and tend to start up a conversation about the game). So, yes I understand your point of view, I even think parts of it are actual issues in the game and is why I am engaged in this conversation.

I do not believe your view is wrong or based on fiction, there is truth to what you say, however based on my own experience I also do not agree with it completely.

Based on the people I have talked to, the people I play with and my sessions in the game, as well as just my background and knowledge of game design. We have different views, 'cause we have different experiences and conversations due to when, how we play and who we are as humans. Your experience is not worth less than mine, but I cannot accept yours as fact/irrefutable truth if my experience tells me different and you do not show me what you base your conclusion on so I can evaluate it for myself.

My ideas and view may be flawed or might push the game in the wrong direction according to your views. Though unless you have actual evidence we do not have the same facts in front of us and all we can do is share these views - hopefully without making those type of statements as they cause people to post things like: That's not true, GET GUT, just another hardcore PvPer saying PvP is dead while we just got sunk and what not. Which just aren't benefiting the conversation (risk of being locked).

Great, so you concede there is a problem! You may disagree exactly the way I describe it or with my solution... but there is a design flaw in the current game design...

Facts have nothing to do with proposed solutions... but we'd probably have to agree on the problem, which I think like most people you're stopping before you hit the source. People complain there is no reason to hunt or go out of their way to engage in PvP... there isn't enough incentive to do so. So bounties are a solution!

But I see the voyaging failing to create a situation that the loot fight happens more naturally. Most people don't take the time to think about why they are bored, they just start hunting other players for the thrill. Then they complain about not having reasons for the hunt, and it being unrewarding. It's pretty clear that bounties are trying to fix a symptom, a behavior being fostered out of boredom over the normal course of the game...

Not sure if you hold this view, people think the potential of PvP is an important part of the PvE... We both proposing a similar solution, some way to push players together. Yours an explicit incentive to gank people while I just want a way to up the probability of crossing paths based on Loot/Voyages.

I play merchant pve but it would be rather boring gathering coops and chickens and selling them without pvp pirates hunting me and try to board me. The pirates make it awesome if i succeed alone to sell everything even if it means sometimes i get boarded and waste 3 hours playtime gathering chickens. So i think its ok to have thieves in a sea of chickens.

Sunk 3 galleons, 4 brigs and 4 sloops, all shot back, in a span of three hours tonight. Couple were return sinks that tried to be get revenge. My ship came close to sinking a couple of times but we prevailed in our sloop. PVP is alive and well in the game. Even with the bugs we managed to have fun. Still a pain to access barrels on a sloop with the bugs.

Situational awareness is a skill,the other ship didnt appear from nowhere you just were oblivious to its presence and paid the price for your lack of vigilance.

@captain-pyrite said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

It's called Sea of Thieves not Sea of Friends and is literally a pirate game.

That's true, but we're not actually pirates. Some folks seem to forget that there are human beings on the other side of the screen. I've heard many people use, "but we're pirates," as an excuse for simply being jerks. Besides, real life pirates didn't just wander the seas randomly sinking ships and murdering people. They were in it for the gold, and the freedom of living beyond the reach of the law.

Of course, things are a little different in Sea of Thieves. We're all pirates here, and cursed pirates at that. There are no merchant vessels to prey upon, so we have only each other to plunder. We must always be leery of our fellow pirates.

@treefittymonsta said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

Sunk 3 galleons, 4 brigs and 4 sloops, all shot back, in a span of three hours tonight. Couple were return sinks that tried to be get revenge. My ship came close to sinking a couple of times but we prevailed in our sloop. PVP is alive and well in the game. Even with the bugs we managed to have fun. Still a pain to access barrels on a sloop with the bugs.

And what were you doing while PvPing?

@enf0rcer said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

@genuine-heather said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

@captain-pyrite said in Pvp is ruining SOT:

It's called Sea of Thieves not Sea of Friends and is literally a pirate game.

That's true, but we're not actually pirates. Some folks seem to forget that there are human beings on the other side of the screen. I've heard many people use, "but we're pirates," as an excuse for simply being jerks. Besides, real life pirates didn't just wander the seas randomly sinking ships and murdering people. They were in it for the gold, and the freedom of living beyond the reach of the law.

Of course, things are a little different in Sea of Thieves. We're all pirates here, and cursed pirates at that. There are no merchant vessels to prey upon, so we have only each other to plunder. We must always be leery of our fellow pirates.

@Genuine-Heather is correct here. Your abilty to chase down, sink and murder random crews over and over agian for no monitary gain does not make you a skilled pirate. Your ability to Find, Steal and Defend Loot does. Saying your a pirate doesn't excuse indiscriminate attacking of ships. But this is what S.O.T has degraded to. Cause the loot has been rendered meaningless. Espically for the merchant ships which is the role takin up by fellow players which should be the core conflict. We now have a cat and mouse style PvP conflict where all the fun of PvP comes from catching the mouse. This is most harmful to the reciving players. Priates are supposed to treaten merchants to give up some of their loot and let them go so they can collect more. Force is only used if merchants refuse to comply in other words, they have to choose to fight.

If there were really merchant ships vs pirate ships than that really needs to be encapsulated into something functional.

What we have now is a race for loot with too many objectives making PvP a nonessential part of that gameplay loop. And because PvP becomes nonessential then the PvE is being played like it should stand on it's on... when people reach the top there is nothing to do... because people weren't playing a game about fighting over loot, but reaching PL.