My Solution To The Issue of Double Gunning

@zollin2400

Alright first of all, people only say sword doesn't take skill up close, is because they don't have anything to block. All the skill was used to get to the double gunner, and keep up on them.

I agree, the skill from the sword doesn't come from aim, it comes from strafing, positioning, and cutting off people to get closer to them in order to have the range so that you can kill them.

So Double gunners with much less experience and skill has a very similar kill rate to the top performing double gunners. The skill gap is quite low for double gunning.

I'd disagree here, if you are a bad doublegunner and miss your shots you are useless. If you use Sniper/Blunder and miss both shots then it will take you about 5 seconds to reload both guns and be back in the fight, during that time you can be shot and you can't defend yourself besides running away. And the skill gap is very noticable when it becomes a DG vs DG battle, the better DGer and person with better aim / movement will almost always win because DG is so reliant on good aim.

You made the argument that because this game has bigger hitboxes (I don't know if that's true, but at the very least it doesn't have headshots like other games) And because of this, DGing has a lower skill gap. I agree that it does have a lower skill gap because there are no headshots, but you're making it sound like you could be in NAL, or the top PvPer to ever exist, and you will barely be able to beat someone who just started doublegunning. There is definitely a lower skill gap compared to other games because there is no headshotting, but that doesn't mean that the skill gap is insanely low.

"You have plenty of tools to use." Double gunning is the only weapon combo that requires you to have more tools than your weapons. Doesn't that seem off to you?

Not really, with doublegunning you are extremely vulnerable to close ranged attacks, and with sword you are vulnerable to long ranged attacks. They both have their pros and cons, the only difference that I see with doublegunners vs sword users is that their positioning is way better. DGers realize that if they excel at long range, and have developed good positioning because of that. But sword users rarely go up against a good DGer, because there aren't that many to begin with, so their skillset in positioning isn't that good because they haven't had to practice it.

I have tried to use sword vs a good doublegunner, I'm not saying that it's easy to do and the DGer will probably win most of the time, the problem I'm having is that the ONLY way to be good at DG is to spend hours upon hours practicing and getting good at the game. That's why I have a problem with nerfing DG as the only way for you to be good is to practice and grind your way to the top. With sword you don't need to grind hours upon hours in order to be good with it. You definitely need to grind it out in order to be better, but you can start being, "good" and getting kills immediately when using it because sword is very easy to use compared to doublegun and how long it takes to be good at DG.

I truly believe that double gunning wasn't meant to outshine the sword in this game, but the people use it as an exploit. I truly believe that the majority are meant to use the sword in this game. Sure some people would choose double gunning instead of swords, and that would be for the different playstyle. But the fact of the matter is, people use double gunning because it is easier to get kills that way. Those who don't double gun have a much lower chance, and double gunners know it. another reason people double gun, is because they're only used to shooter games, so they refuse to actually learn how to go in depth in engaging sword battles.

I can see it that way, but if sword was, "meant" to be the staple weapon then the developers would have to come out and say it. I don't believe that the sword should be the go to weapon unless the developers come out and say that they are going to start balancing thing around the sword being your weapon pick. As for, "easier to get kills with," It definitely is easier to get single solo kills, but with the sword you can sword dash or just swing at people and hit multiple people at the same time. It's situational about when sword is better than DG. DG is better when everyone is spread out and not all rushing you at the same time, when you can run away and reload without being shot at or sworded at. And sword is better to use when it is a close range battle like on a ship or below deck, and everyone is grouped up trying to kill you because you can sword dash them. You also have the advantage of being able to sword dash off of islands, boats, and ledges to go board another ship silently.

Here's a clip of me killing 2 people, if I had Blunder/Sniper then I would've been able to kill the guy on wheel immediately, and then run to the front of the boat while reloading my blunder so that I can kill the second person. But I'm running Sword/Sniper, and I know my strengths and weaknesses, so I go down below deck and sword dash them to get the cleave damage and hit both of them at the same time.

Video: https://youtu.be/vY0ZOTRHCC8?t=428

I will definitely agree with you that in a 1v1 situation DG will always have the advantage in a ranged, open area fight. But most of the time when fighting a DGer you will have the numbers advantage because when boarding someone elses boat, you normally can't send all 4 people over to board, you can only send 1 or 2. And doublegun is at a disadvantage when there are multiple people, because while they may be able to kill 1, they now have to reload both guns while the second player can keep attacking them until they've reloaded both weapons. It's about using your skills to your advantage, I've gone up against good DGers when I've boarded and I was still able to kill them by going below deck, using my advantages, waiting for them to shoot before rushing, and sword dashing to get that extra distance. As well as using my secondary weapon when they were too far away for me to hit them. There are a lot of times that sword users will refuse to use their secondary weapon and will only rush with the sword, and they die because of that. If more people used their secondary weapon when the times called for it, I think that sword users would have a much easier time killing DGers.

another reason people double gun, is because they're only used to shooter games, so they refuse to actually learn how to go in depth in engaging sword battles. They give up, and go to what they're used to, and learn that it kills way quicker. You bunny hop, and just keep shooting, without having to fully engage in the battle.

This reminds me of Indiana Jones vs the swordsman.

This game isn't meant to be so dependent on aiming skills. It isn't CoD, or Siege, it's Sea of Thieves; a Pirate game. Some people ask, "Then why is it an option?" Well, the game devs want there to be diversity in the weapons combos that people use. I respect that, but I don't want one combo to be unfair towards the other half of gun combos. I want them to be equal in skill.

I would agree with you if the developers came out and said it was. The developers put doublegun in for a reason, and have kept tweaking it to make it as equal is they can vs all other weapons. I don't believe that this game should be dependent on using a sword or you are at a disadvantage. I think that each weapon combo has their advantages and disadvantages and you can use every combo to great effects provided that you are good at what you do. I could easily use sword and take down a good DGer, as long as I use my range to my advantages. I wouldn't be rushing them down when they have all the range, I would make them come to me by annoying them when I peak out and quickscope snipe them, if I do snipe them, then I could reload my sniper and shoot them again before they have time to heal over 70.

Point being, I believe that Sword users are just as capable to kill DGers as DGers are capable to kill Sword users. If anything Sword users have the advantage because if they're good, they control the pace of the fight. They decide to fight down below in a cramped space, and they decide when to engage. DGers are used to having sword users rush them and never strafe, so it's easy for them to 2 tap people because sword users try to face tank the damage and end up dying because it's too much damage. I use sword pretty often, about as much as I use DG, and I can say that sword is very powerful because of it's ability to hit multiple people at once. DG can't do that, you have 1 shot for 1 person, no more. I think that sword users have an equal if not better chance of killing DGers, but they don't use their advantages to their fullest extent, and either ONLY use sword without swapping to their secondary, or always rush and facetank the damage without waiting for the DGer to get closer.

almost every professional in this game uses double gunning.

Definitely so, but they do it because it allows for sniping and 2 tapping and long ranged fights by killing people in the water, and the ability to kill people when they themselves are on the ladder. Sword is something that you could easily use because of its ability to hit multiple people at one time, but at the cost of range. In NAL and things like that, range is needed at the highest level of play, same with cannonballs, the further away you are and the more accurate, the better chance you have of being able to hit your opponent and not get hit yourself. There have been plenty of times that I've seen top NAL players get boarded and sworded to death because of the chaos that was ensuing. If you watched the Athena trials with all of the streamers, whenever Pace boarded a ship, he was using doublegun. But he died all the time boarding someone elses ship, because he would get outnumbered and slashed to death. Or it would just be 1 person, but he already got sniped so he was low and couldn't fight back, so he got slashed to death by 1 guy.

I think specifically for SOT since it's a CQC game, it is very easy to use sword effectively as long as you are below deck, and make the enemy go below deck.

Many tutorials for sea of thieves online have stated so. Sure the game buffed swords, but the balance isn't quite there yet.

Definitely it is a little better than sword right now, but my thinking for the reason WHY that is is not due to the damage or pros and cons of each weapon, but the people using that weapon. If we had a lot more good sword users who knew every little technique about their weapon and how to exploit every little thing like DGers do, we would have a lot more close fights and a lot more sword kills. Problem being that most people who use sword just slash at the air and rush people when they have a sniper pointed at them, and die.

The sword in my opinion has the same amount of Pros and Cons compared to DG, because what most people forget is that you have a secondary weapon that you can use to do a ranged battle with a DGer. And because of the 1 second delay between gun shots, you easily have enough time to go behind cover before they can shoot their second shot and kill you.

If I was going to fight a DGer, I would use my Pros to my advantage. I would stay below deck and take pop shots with my sniper until I annoy them enough to come down. They have to come down eventually because the ammo and food are down belowdeck. I can keep reloading and healing all I want, they can't do anything about it. I wouldn't rush with the sword until they are close enough, I would make sure that I keep taking 1 shot, then running down below and healing if I need to, or just to reload. The DGers don't have the luxury of running down belowdeck to get food, ammo, or cover when I shoot them, so they are forced to stay up top with food and ammo dwindling with little to no cover while I stay down below and am perfectly safe. Obviously if I were to stay above deck I would have trouble killing them because DG excels at long ranged open area battles, I strip that away from them and now I am the victor.

Your reasoning for why doublegun should only have 5 shots total instead of 10 is because sword should be the favored weapon. Sword should be the weapon that is predicted to win vs doublegun because this is a CQC game where close range is a huge factor in fighting. If that's your reasoning that sword should be favored to win, changing the ammo from 10 to 5 won't do anything. People would still be able to doubletap you in a 1v1 scenario, provided that you stay out in the open and try to kill them that way, you will lose. If you play up top and just rush a DGer, then you will lose.

@galactic-geek sagte in My Solution To The Issue of Double Gunning:

@dformdduckx0 said:

With hit reg being at it's worst right now

What are you talking about!? It's better than ever right now! The last few updates have fixed so many hit-reg issues! On ladders, on interactables, in the water, under the water, with swords in water, on rowboats, on the Arena turn-in ship, and now with no more wallbanging! It's consistently getting better!

Worst ever? Jeez... 🙄

Sorry to infrom you but it didn't get better at all. Still every second or third shot hitregs. At least every other game I have to shoot someone 5-6 times till he's dead because he hitregs.

@zollin2400 sagte in My Solution To The Issue of Double Gunning:

@insaiity Being a sword user against a double gunner feels like someone is shooting sharks out of a cannon at you, each one dealing huge damage, as you have to heal so they don't use their second gun to quickly kill you from a distance. Having to deal with doublegunners running away almost forces you to use double gunning. Fighting a double gunner with one gun almost never works. And getting close is almost impossible if they just keep shooting you every time you run towards them.

How is it then that a lot of sword players seem to be able to kill double gunners? Learn to dodge shots and you'll be fine. And on a ship the option to run away is so limited that you can easily catch them.

@zollin2400 sagte in My Solution To The Issue of Double Gunning:

@insaiity You ignore almost every point I have, but lets try this again. There is much more to the killing in 6 seconds, if the double gunner is shooting you while you get close, and are close. Also all double gunners bunny hop and run away everytime they reload, therefore that 6 seconds becomes 2.

No it is still 6 seconds. And you only have to hit them once to stop all of their movement completely. If you can't manage to do that, you'll just have to get better.

You can't kill fast enough with a sword.

Shoot them once and then 2 slahes is pretty fast. 4 slaches are also done pretty fast. Still they are a bit slower than 2 shots but that's good because YOU HAVE UNLIMITED AMMO.

You are referring to when a double gunner is cornered or very inexperienced, when you say that you kill them while they reload.

No that's the easiest way to kill any double gunner. If you can't get to them in time then your movement is lacking.

It is extremely difficult to out gun a double gunner, they have twice the fire power,

Yes it is difficult to outgun a double gunner if you only have 1 gun but that also means that your mobility is a lot higher than his and you have a mweapon that functions everywhere wihtout the limitation of ammo. That is the tradeoff you accept if you don't use another gun.

and you have the same amount of food. If double gunners had the same amount of ammo as single gunners it would make gunning more fair.

No it give the sword + gun user a major advantage. Let's say both of you shoot all your bullets and you both outheal everything. Then the DG is left with nothing left to defend himself why you still have the better mobility and a weapon that can continue to kill him easily. That's OP my man.

"guns are supported more" That has got to be the weakest claim you've made so far.

No really since there are 3 of them and only 1 sword

This is a pirate game where you use your sword, and you would have multiple options for you secondary.

This is a game where Rare said themselves that you have the tools, play how you want. Nowhere it say that sword is mandatory.

The reason the guns were secondaries, was because their had limited ammo.

No they have limited ammo to balance them. If they didn't have that the sword would be absolutely pointless.

Also it's a pirate game. People use guns to get quick kills where sword users can't defend themselves. Sword users are almost forced to switch to their gun, but uf the sword user and the double gunner are equal in skill, then the sword user is out gunned with is single gun, further forcing them to double gun.

That's just false. Sorry. If they are equally skilled the winner could be anyone of them. Most likely the one with better food and better positioning.

If a sword user has equal skill to the double gunner, the double gunner will win unless they mess up. That is the base definition of unfair.

Wrong. Sorry.

This isn't some team deathmatch game mode where you respawn instantly, and there's nothing waiting for you while you're dead; that's why blunderbusses are unfair as an instant kill.

I don't get what you are saying. What do you mean with "there is nothing waiting for you"?

Double gunning is meant to be limiting.

It is. Ammo is limited and high relode times.

People are supposed to play as a different playstyle.

Yes, and people do.

The sword is meant to outrule double gunning.

No it is not? How did you come to that conclusion?

It's a pirate game where the sword is the main weapon.

The sword is a weapon, a choice you can make or not make to take it with you. Definitely not the main weapon.

Even the tutorial shows that the sword is the main weapon.

It shows the basic combat with the easiest weapon in that scenario. Overall the tutorial leaves out almost all important stuff, so it really is not a good reference point.

Also if you are far away, use your long range weapon, you're a double gunner so you aren't limited to close range. Also if you bunny hop and reload/heal, you wont die while reloading, because that's what double gunners do.

1 sword swing and they are glued to the ground. No more hopping and running.

Not once did you refer to any situations that actually occur often, only random scenarios that benefit your argument.

All I mentioned happens all the time while I play.

@bugaboo-bill

unfortunately they fear the s**+tstorm or like it by themself idk.

Thing is this shooter focussed PvP combat thing is in no way piratish.

A shot here and there yes, of course, doublegunning? lame!

I had some good cutlass duels back in the time.

Even now a cutlass duel is way more piratish and entertaining than this fps crab especially with hitreg being that worse.

If i would have made it.

Flintlock only, 2 shots only.

No shooting underwater, no lit kegs under water!

If someone says this is limited freedom, nit fun, then this is him or her, not true for me.

No.

@bugaboo-bill

yes, my opinion

No says nothing, but you disagree for the sake if it.

I got it.

Yes.

Sword spamming and double gunning are both equally annoying, so they balance out. If double guns got nerfed, the sword definitely needs a nerf as well.

@bugaboo-bill sagte in My Solution To The Issue of Double Gunning:

@insaiity sagte in My Solution To The Issue of Double Gunning:

@galactic-geek sagte in My Solution To The Issue of Double Gunning:

@dformdduckx0 said:

With hit reg being at it's worst right now

What are you talking about!? It's better than ever right now! The last few updates have fixed so many hit-reg issues! On ladders, on interactables, in the water, under the water, with swords in water, on rowboats, on the Arena turn-in ship, and now with no more wallbanging! It's consistently getting better!

Worst ever? Jeez... 🙄

Sorry to infrom you but it didn't get better at all. Still every second or third shot hitregs. At least every other game I have to shoot someone 5-6 times till he's dead because he hitregs.

If the hitreg is that worse, why do people use guns at all and why does the "competetive scene" exist TDM'ing in Arena?

Either they are mas0chist, stubborn or they are all fine and exagerating.

Because they love the idea of what the combat could be like if it was fixed. They hold on to that hope and therefore still play, because they love the game. But the tdm community is losing more and more players, day by day more and more are quitting because it just doens't get better at all.

Also tdm'ing is literally the only fun thing left in this game for all those people, me inculded. Stealing loot is boring because no one can put up a fight and/or always scuttles if you even get close to them. And only shooting cannonballs is fine for a couple of rounds but gets also pretty boring after a while.

And we use guns because the sword just feels absolutely awful atm.

I dont play Arena for the way PvP is in this game.
I like to PvP here and there in Adventure to spice it up, i like the threat beeing around or be the threat by myself, but dont understand why people play this for the sole reason of pvp alone and focus on PvP, focus on gunning when all about this is so bad.
I dont get it.

It's okay you don't have to get it. I personally would never be able to almost only do PvE. One day of mostly PvE is enouch for me to get me through weeks wihtout doing it again, because it bores me to death.

TDM'ing is the only fun thing left because you play against equally good players and the combat/movement is a lot more advanced than in any other situation. It challenges you to get better.

Everything below a good gunplay and accurate hit registration isnt worth to be played competitively or more serious.
The only thing i can imagine is that these so called "competetive scene" is too bad to play real competetive games with proper gunplay.

No, actually most of these guys are very good in CoD, CSGO aswell, but we love SoT and love the idea of the combat, sadly we have to deal with hitreg in order to play. But many started to leave. If it actually gets fixed tho, a lot should come back.

@zollin2400 i mean saying pirates historically used swords and guns isn’t really an argument, even though some used multiple guns. Double gunning isn’t a problem, it is how you have to get smart with a sword to counter it in that situation so here are some tips:
-lead them around a corner and when they follow use the sword to stun them
-try and get behind them when you hit so they can’t blunder you as fast
-only sword lung at a closer distance when you have a 100% chance of hitting them
-They can no longer shoot through walls so hide behind everything except the stairs and railings that can still be shot through
-block jumping with the sword is incredibly useful, you can hop through a person if they are super close and get behind them
-sword has incredible mobility and can get you out of rough places

There are some tips to help. Just because people get good with something doesn’t mean it needs a nerf, double gunners have a heard time fighting double gunners and there are plenty of insane sword users who make me think the sword is overpowered.

@bugaboo-bill sagte in My Solution To The Issue of Double Gunning:

@insaiity i fully get you.
I dont say you play another game, but tbh and with respect you play like pve server dudes a different game.
And many complains about the game come from people not having a pirate adventure but problems to establish their specific (unintended?) gameplay style.

I agree to all you said and therefore i dont play this game
A. seriously
B. competitively

Ok i'm also to old for this kind of aproach at all, but the games PvP gives zero to no challenge except you do things like TDM.

Isn't it sad and also fortbidden to do so? Because others cannot play regular then also you need to hop servers to no end like pve only server creators to find your Lobby?

Sorry to say, i wished Arena would never have happened and the game would have another epic storyline instead.
Or some sort of nemesis system for PvP or whatever.

PvE only is dull, but there is always other ships and you dont know about them.
I like diversity.

If i want shooter PvP i play Valorant, Rouge Company or older games what have still active playerbase.

SoT is in no way the game for that.
Even Pirates vs Vikings vs Cowboys or Blackwake is better for serious PvP than SoT.

Yes I agree right now I'm just on the other end of the spectrum as PvE Server players. But to be fair, I really liked the normal PvPvE concept. I loved getting some loot and then fight other for their loot, sadly nowadays it takes forever to find a server that has more than 3 boats in it and they never do something that is worth stealing for me. They also don't put up a good fight and only sinking bad players is not fun. I want an exciting fight, but I can not get that anymore.
Either they are too bad, they only run, they never do someting worthwhile for me to try to steal or I can't find anyone.
Only because of that I shifted my attention towards Arena and then TDM.
Sometimes I still play Adventure and I enjoy it but I can only do this in small doses. It gets boring too fast. At least for me.

Sometimes I also try to find new people and talk to them on the sea and have ana dventure together, but that is only possible sometimes.

I'm sorry but I disagree, this game doesn't need more nerfs to weapons. I would like better mobility buffs too sword.

@zollin2400 said in My Solution To The Issue of Double Gunning:

• People have complained about their being a very small skill gap to sea of thieves, but I truly believe that these changes would increase the skill gap, and further balance the game.

I see this as the biggest problem of people who are complaining. The only difference between players in this game is knowledge and translating that knowledge into skill. The skill gap is actually astronomic when it comes to a new player and someone who has truly mastered the game.

Ever seen a solo sloop sink a galleon? Ever seen someone win a 1v4 against people who actually know what they are doing? While in theory it's just "make sure you hit your cannonballs/shots and hit your sword slashes" there is so much fine print in the combat system to make someone truly good at the game. The problem is that the skill gap is not gradual. The curve from a new player to an above-average player is quite linear and mostly involves knowing the mechanics of the game in an out. From then on, the skill gap makes a huge leap to actually become that master of SoT.

You'll never here someone who is a true master of the combat say that. The only people saying that there is "no skill gap" are the first ones to scream cheater when someone utterly destroys them.

If people would finally realize that there is so much more to being a truly good player in this game... (that does not mean in any way that the current systems are perfect or can't be improved anymore. Far from that)

But in the end, people complaining are normally the ones on the losing side who are just not willing to practise and improve. No one has become a legend of the Sea of Thieves overnight.

@galactic-geek ye it is ut also its movement isn't that great the hops don't reg sometimes and the cooldown on it feels too long. if there were ways that sword users would have better movement options it would help them close the gap. sword has a low skill ceiling and I think that adding movement tech would be great for it. DG needs to stay how it is.

@bugaboo-bill

i hate FPS in general

Interesting.

@bugaboo-bill I definitely feel like this would improve the pirate feel of the world.

@pvekilla420 That's how doublegunning has harmed the game. It forces many people to learn double gunning.

@mikehit00 All I gotta say is: True. I just said it so it could appeal to those who say it.