A possible solution to Sea of Thieves biggest problems...

  • PERSEVERENCE
    Castaway

    Watching YouTube videos and reading posts, you keep seeing the same argument. People saying this is a PVP game and everyone should expect it/play that way. The other side says let me play PVE and stop attacking me. The core problem here is that both sides have their personal way they prefer to play the game and they are in direct conflict with each other. This also connects to another problem of really skilled pirates absolutely dominating other less skilled players. I have experienced this like many players have where you can immediately see your opponent is on a whole different level then you. Skilled pirates don't want to be crushing new/low skill pirates and low skill pirates don't want to get crushed by the most savage pirates.

    The solution I think lies in a hidden PVP ranking system, also known in other games as MMR. The system would be hidden from all players and would keep track of what each player does regarding PVP specific events. You sink a player ship your MMR increases. You kill another player it increases. The opposite happens and you die/sink due to other players and you lose some MMR. Your current MMR level will come into play the next time to log into the game/ switch servers. The game will try to place you on servers with players with similar MMR. If on a crew, the crews MMR can be based on an average of all the players MMR or on just the crew member with the highest MMR or some better equation based on game data. If a player with much higher MMR kills/sinks a player with lower MMR they get a small percent of MMR gained and in the opposite case they gain a higher percent of MMR for defeated players with a higher MMR. Over time it would balance out the community.

    PVP savage sweat lords would get matched on the same servers with each other and proceed to have epic battles due to their high skill levels, no longer just walking through the competition. New players would land on servers with other players with low MMR and would have a much smaller chance of getting squashed like a bug. They would also have epic battles as they are both learning how to PVP and sink/kill enemy players. It would allow all players to play their way (which in the long term is what will actually grow the games player base), instead of each side trying to force the other side to play their way. If a mostly PVE player gets a taste for PVP because they successfully defended their ship against other players, they might start to add more PVP to their game time and grow their MMR. One day they might become the most savage of pirates. The point is an MMR system would match players on servers that will allow them to play the game their way against players around their level/play style.

    This is not a silver bullet solution, just like no MMR system currently is in any game. It is much better then having no skill system in place. Smurfing is a problem in games with MMR as cruel players create new accounts so they can beat up on new players. If players do that, then everyone will clearly know what they are and possibly report them. The devs can look at the reports and see if crew reported sinks/kills a lot of players on a new account and can adjust that accounts MMR accordingly, forcing these bad actors to constantly make new accounts. It would make them work for their cruelty and not just let them do it with no effort, everyday, with their favorite cosmetics on. Overtime I believe a hidden MMR system would allow players to play SOT the way that brings them back to the game the next day.

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  • WolfManbush
    Lord

    the harsh reality is that the success of the game's foundation isn't based on fair fights it's based on a food chain where the food is treasure and commendations

    Tdm is consensual and competition based but most of the rest is random piratical feedings. Sometimes we are the big fish and sometimes we are the little fish. That ultimately never changes. Thousands of hours and people are still a part of a random server's food chain where they may be the piratical predator or piratical prey.

    It's an effective system and one that helps longevity exist. It's always going to have some level of input from people that do not enjoy some or all of it but it works.

    A ranking system would not be accurate as stats don't tell the entire story it just tells pieces of results. It will lump people where they don't belong.

    This is a game of hunting and surviving not fair or similar interest fights. Nobody is ever stuck at the bottom, with some dedication and strategy they will move up to a manageable position that allows personal success in the game.

  • Ghostfire1981
    Champion
    Insider

    There are sooooo many issues with this. One is, how do you rank people? Sunken ships, killed pirates, stolen flags?

    An example:
    We have a peaceful nice pirate crew that does mostly PvE stuff, and never attacks anyone. They get attacked by PvP crews, and sink the attacking crews, now the peaceful PvE crew have several ships sunk, and lots of kills. Should this peaceful crew now be combined with aggressive PvP players with high ships sunk/pirates skilled scores?

    A system for classifying pirates or pirate crews, will ALWAYS have big flaws, and it can and will be exploited. We have discussed this topic many times before, and we always come (more or less) to the same conclusion, that it would be (more or less) impossible to implement such a system in a PvPvE game like SoT.

  • KommodoreYenser
    Lord
    Insider

    So you want to punish PvE players who successfully defend their ship against aggressors by making them matched with even tougher, more PvP oriented crews the next game?

    No?

    So your system would allow for the person who did damage first to another crew instead of who sank who? So I could just bait my prey into damaging me first and then I sink them so my MM doesn't increase?

    Vicious cycle I am afraid and no way to properly MM it as you envision to help those you want to aid.

  • P3tey Pan
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    Im sure they will get to designing a working MMR as soon as they hammer out some of the tougher issues, like login server uptime.

    Seriously though, the arena had no MMR and every match was like a roll of the dice if the server was going to drop you. I doubt there is anyone there that could implement this idea.

    #BleedingEdgeModernTechnology

  • Captain Coel
    Commander
    Insider

    @perseverence no just no. Matchmaking in this game should be random. There are just so many things wrong with a system like this.

  • Minhoca SoT
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    @perseverence The point here is simple, whoever says that everyone should play PvP is right, as the game clearly has PvP. PvP players don't complain about PvE, but the opposite always happens.

    However, I believe that a system that separates players would be interesting. But I would make a different system, separate PL from beginners.

    The idea of ​​the game is for everyone to experience both types of game, after all, SoT is a PvPvE and that will never change.

  • SweetSandMan
    Commander
    Insider

    I've yet to see anyone come up with the right combination of metrics that would allow for PvP and PvE to co-exist properly in the PvPvE environment SOT was intended to be.

    I see 2 problems with the game today.

    1. PvP has been made way too easy for those that are looking for it. Most fights last less than 5 minutes, with the majority of those being under one minute. It's just a meta execution exercise against players that don't know how to defend against the metas. PvP needs to be made harder. PvP needs a meta shakeup.

    2. PvE has been made to be an ultra grind-fest. There's SO much content and SO many commendations that are forever active that players get overwhelmed and feel like they need to complete every quest and every event that they begin in order to get anywhere in this game and gain access to anything they can be proud of that doesn't come from the emporium. They should have focused on making way more content time limited and not such a neverending grind fest. But, I get it, the emporium makes Rare money and completing 100 Vaults, for example, doesn't make them anything.

  • GreatFailure82
    Marauder

    people are pointing out how insane it is to accurately design a MMR system in this game, and they are 100% correct. but id like to add on that this would make the game 10x worse. your idea would effectively make pve servers and pvp servers at the opposite spectrum of the MMR rankings which the game isn't intended to have. people who pvp all day dont want to pvp against other pvpers, the arena showed this. also pvers (apart from the vocal minority) dont want to remove the only threat in the game that makes this game even a little bit challenging, the fact you have to be aware of other hostile players. now is this harsh to new players ? in a minority of circumstances yes when they get attacked repeatidly by toxic players sure. but your trying to break the game to fix an insignificant problem.

  • FallnFenix5
    Seafarer
    Insider

    It's a Pirate game. It's that simple. As in life, it's a roll of the dice. Sometimes you get a dead server sometimes it's a sweaty server. The type of game it is literally is stated in the title, "Sea of Thieves" period. To become a better Pirate people need to play like one, which means increasing PVP skills. Some are wins and some are losses. What is a Pirate? Don't want to play a game that has Pirates. Don't play this game.

  • JR00STER
    Sailor

    Again, this all falls into the usual pvp vs pve debate.

    Pve crews are sick of being constantly devoured by crews who thrive on pvp. Hours of pve content wasted or denied to them because of pvp crews that sink on sight. Very often a game session is ended before it even began because of the frustration of being sunk constantly. There is a wealth of pve content that is often walled off behind the pvp aspect of the game.

    Alternately, Crews who thrive on pvp are sick of pve crews crying about their place on the food chain. This is a pirate game, pvp is a core mechanic so why cry about such an important part of the game. Pvp is where the fun is for them, so why alter the part of the game that they enjoy the most just because casuals can’t pvp?

    Personally, I fall into the former opinion. I suck at pvp, the guys I play with and crew up with suck at pvp and it is a constant source of frustration to have time and effort be wasted just to provide a pvp crew with a moment of fun as they sink our ship. Content of the game is unreachable because every game session we bump into sink-on-sight pvp crews who will sink even empty ships and realizing they are attacking a crew that is no match for them makes it all the better.
    The crew I played with have quit the game because of this and honestly, I’m sick of just existing in the game to provide a fleeting moment of “lulz” to pvp crews.

    I get it. It’s a pvp game. It’s a pirate game. Ultimately the pve content is just window dressing, gussying up what is ultimately a pvp game. Myself and many other players thought it was the other way around, we were wrong. That is where the pvp / pve tension comes from.
    I don’t have time to ‘git gud’ at the pvp, so, like the guys I used to crew up with I have moved on from the game. Pity really, because it is a beautiful game with some awesome content but the pvp crews are right on this one. It’s their game. It would be like us complaining about getting killed in Call of Duty (a comment I hear a lot in-game).

    This pvp / pve debate will never end and it will never get ‘fixed’ until Rare and Microsoft are honest about their game.

  • wagstr
    Master
    Insider

    Another possible solution is to try to remember it's a multiplayer game where you need to learn to walk before you can run..

    When I first started playing I would often join in on my son, sometimes with his mates, all of us completely useless. First thing we would do is put an emissary up even before we got on the ship. No real lookouts, everybody off ship at an island, ship facing inland with both anchor and sails down and then wonder why we were getting ganked all the time.

    Don't go the high risk, high reward route unless you're confident you have a decent chance of hanging on to your loot if things go south or you are the type of player who can accept loss without having a meltdown..

  • GrumpyW01f
    Lord
    Insider

    @perseverence
    Even if your suggestion could be implemented perfectly, in the end it's a glorified PvE server system. It wouldn't be as bad, sure, but the highest MMR players would be PvPing each other over nothing, while the newer players wouldn't face any danger, or reduced danger at least. Even putting new players in easy servers for the first few sessions may alienate them from the chance to meet a helpful veteran.

  • BruvHandles
    Ship Mate

    I would love this xD I already don’t pvp so this would solve everything I find annoying about the same. Sailing my loot into the Red Sea so pvp players can’t have it is fun and all but turning it in myself because the other ships are my skill level sounds way more fun. At least way more fun than whatever is happening now. I might actually play the game for more than 3-4 sessions before I take another 6 months break

  • Greengrimz
    Marauder

    @perseverence

    Diagonally red "MMR" in your post. Hard pass from me.

  • j0toro
    Captain
    Rare Employee

    Ahoy!

    We have semi-recently given our thoughts on the topic of PvPvE and discussed it in an official Podcast here.

    Sea of Thieves will always be a shared world adventure game, with elements of both PvP and PvE where you will never know if those sails on teh horizon are friend or foe. We have no intentions of splitting up our player base and something at the very heart of our game design would have to change for this to happen.

    Dropping anchor on this now.

    Thanks,
    j0toro

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