Feedback and Suggestions, By the Numbers

Really? I thought season 6 or 7 was probably the worst (Whichever one introduced Adventures). That's when I stopped playing, many old players probably quit back then too. Who knows how many players this game retained, starting season 8. I came back, this season to enjoy the new content but also to relive the old ones (Excluding season7 of course) just because i've maxed out most things in the game it doesn't mean I can't find enjoyment in them. Few days ago, I revisited the pirate life tall tales. Note: Thnx wolfman for the season explanation.

@lordqulex said in Feedback and Suggestions, By the Numbers:

Do either of you have empirical evidence to support your anecdotal evidence/personal opinions? Because I gotta say, a 58.9% drop-off of players after two and a half weeks is very hard to argue against with "worst for the organic experience" or "probably the worse". I'm not talking about/from personal experience, I'm looking at the numbers. People left the game long before they could reasonably have unlocked the curse, not en masse.

I feel you have strong observations and strong feelings, but feelings aren't evidence. Anecdotes aren't statistics. By the numbers, Season 8/hourglass has been the most poorly received by the community.

The issue with statistics is that they never paint a full picture. You can't just look at the data and say ah yes! the reason for the significant change in these numbers dropping in this season is because the season simply sucks! Any scientist will tell you what I just mentioned. Statistical analysis and experimentation to reach a working conclusion aka theory requires extensive testing of the variables in a setting that otherwise lacks any other variable. This is where anecdotal evidence, such as the one I provided, becomes important, as it sheds light to confounding or extraneous variables. In my case, it's the possibility that the drop this season may be due to a drop of player retention in the previous season. There are others of course, such as yearly drop offs are not a steady rate of decline, and so on.

@lordqulex said in Feedback and Suggestions, By the Numbers:

@red0demon0

So empirically, we can state that 1) there was a 58.9% drop-off in peak players, and 2) the start of the new season had a lower peak player count than previous seasons. And while you can read into that in many different ways, I don't think "they all earned the curses they want" is realistic and "they were never really going to stay around anyway" would have seen that steep of drop off in previous seasons which we didn't. That means, for one reason or another, this season was an outlier. Fewer people came, and more people left quicker. I feel that can easily be explained by people not being excited by the concept of on-demand PVP and having an overall bad experience with hourglass, but yes those are hypothesis. Do you have any other simple explanations for the numbers?

And (to be perfectly fair) "people I've played with on Discord tell me their quitting" is just as invalid as "worst for the organic experience" or "probably the worse". That's my bad.

Yes, agreed with ur statements (Not that there's a choice, they are the cold hard facts lol) but I don't think I nor anyone else may provide you with simple explanations, all we can do is argue different perspectives or points of views. Psychology and science teaches one that things aren't as simple as they might seem. That which is obvious is not as obvious as it may seem. There is value in disagreement though, for example, I disagree that people aren't excited by on demand pvp. I disagree with this point because of the sheer amount of people I've seen here argue for pvp. The amount of people that also argue about the issues of the pvp is also not proof that players aren't excited for it. It may just be that it's because they are excited by it that they feel so passionately about expressing themselves in hopes of making it better. Personally I don't mind it if it didn't exist, but I appreciate it for its stay none the less (I do mind the unlockable for it though) and take delight from playing through it on most occasions.

Could bad experiences be a cause for the reduced numbers? Sure, but that's a complicated subject, I mean just think about how many variables comprise a "bad experience". A bad experience can either be hourglass wait times being too long, or encountering allied ships, not being rewarded for said allied ship sinking, not enough reward for playing this pvp mode, too much resources grinding, too much time spent within said game mode, etc... the list goes on. Furthermore, bad experiences may be accumulative. The more that negative experiences are encountered over time, the less incentive to continue playing the game mode, and by extension the game. Sure you can test for multiple variables but that's not simple to do either. Point being that ultimately there are many combinations of variables that each one of us can create in order to develop some form of explanation or reasoning.

As an example of the point I made about seasons: There is no doubt the numbers this season are impacted, but other seasons also play a role on how well future seasons do. The past, present, and future are not separate, each one has an effect on one another.

I wouldn't say that "people quitting" is invalid though, I mean if they really are quitting (With no doubt they aren't lying or just being emotional) and the numbers support the statement (Which this part it does), then you can take that to be a fact. However, even though it's valid it doesn't mean we can determine anything from just that. The question still remains, why is it that they quit? Why are they really quitting? Because where as one may say "I quit because that's all they have to offer" another may say "I quit because the game is too salty" Or "I quit because wait times are ridiculous and I don't have the time for that" or "this game mode is an unbalanced mess". Where is the general mindset, and the major reason why people are leaving?

S8 I think 95% of PvP'ers think its the best that SoT has done (Myself included)

Captaincy was huge in hype, but lacked new content (Things to do in the game) which died off I believe.
Captaincy was very good in the sense that it brought a strong base to the game in terms of progression, but as I said, nothing actually new to do in the game. unless grinding for trinkets was your thing.

1. You forgot to take into account when S8 was released to present day. Its Christmas holidays so a lot of folks are taking time off with their family.

2. I want to counter your thoughts in saying why does S8 impact players leaving that much? The PvP is NOT forced down anyone's throats, on the contrary it gives PvE players a LOT of breathing room to be left alone after countless complaints over the months of being sunk just doing PvE.

3. Point 2 countering my own comment, the rewards is what they seek, but if you hate PvP then not much I can say/do apart from it's got nothing to do with me if you always looked at it in a negative light, you could of at least prepared to get somewhat decent in PvP before S8 dropped to at least have a better chance in getting the rewards faster.

4. Why does everything in season 8 according to a lot of people on this forum has to be something they expect to get in a month (rewards)?
   I don't see players complaining how acquiring the 100 chests of grogs and/or getting the barnacle set is to slow.
   Im an ultra sweat, currently 160+ in both factions and im not rushing to get everything done by the end of the year, I want those later rewards to, but I ain't setting unrealistic expectations of time frame to get them. >>> Enjoy the ride, get your skill up in PvP.

Steam Charts is a service that tracks an ongoing analysis of Steam's concurrent players.

and only for Steam, so not all the numbers.

(I'm a professional in the financial sector, I know my chart patterns)

Hmmhmm. and yet you seem to be missing a lot of data for them charts.

Players join when a new season starts, unlock the content, then put the game down until another season comes out.

Like many other games that follow this formula.

Season 8 and by extension hourglass has been the most poorly received content since the inception of the game.

And yet...I see youtubers, Twitch users, Twitter users and ingame players all praising it. Where the numbers for those people?

All data sets can be manipulated to forward an agenda.

So you make a good-bye forum thread that gets insta locked, detailing your grievances about Season 8 and the state of SoT's PvP in your eyes, and then you come back to throw statistics at us expecting to agree with you that "this season sucks because of reasons I already know I don't like".

Give me a break mate, statistics for this game are far from consistent or accurate, and comparing Season 8's PvP-centric season player statistics to Season 3's, the season renowned Disney Characters make a featured appearance in, is beyond petty and a complete manipulation of data to forward a narrative towards your grievances with Season 8, when it's most likely not entirely true. Every Season's beginnings always peak with the playerbase that's interested within the first 2 weeks, and by 1 month later, those number decrease drastically. Just look at Season 3's player statistics from Steam, many people that came to play the game with Jack Sparrow in it peaked the game's player numbers dramatically, but by August, there were less players online than before Season 3's launch.

You can use statistics all you want, but it's just another form of lying in order to forward a narrative, and I simply won't stand for it. You're free to return to your departure from Sea of Thieves if you're going to come back only to stir unrest within the forum's community.

Some improvements absolutely need to be made in the hourglass system to encourage casual and lower skilled PvP'ers to join the mode. This being matchmaking improvements, PvP balancing, maybe some alterations to the mode itself most likely defensive improvements. One thing that shouldn't be adjusted is allowing PvE only to advance these new factions! We already have 6 factions that are progressed mainly through PvE. This is supposed to be end game content, it's supposed to be difficult, it's something you attempt to tackle once you have abit of PvP experience under your belt rather than just stacking FoTD's.

@arch-ideall Nah I'm sorry, but most of those complaints about Season 8, and this is coming from the perspective of someone who is ACTVIELY struggling to progress themselves, are just nothing but actual skill issue that you're denying and treating as a functional issue for the Season's content. The goal in PvP is to win. If you're not winning you should be trying to improve yourself, this isn't a contest where you get a participation trophy, this is a war between two factions where victory is rewarded much more handsomely than coming up second place.

Guard your boards with a blunderbuss or a blunderbomb, hit your cannon and gun shots as best as you can, win the broadsides you get into against another crew, and don't lose your active cannoning angle while your enemy has an angle on you or you're in big trouble. If you settle for less, you get less out of this specific type of content, that's just how PvP works in most games, and it's no different in the chaotic world of Sea of Thieves

@arch-ideall
"Season 8 also feels like filler but instead of boring, it's just tedious grind that requires you to play the worst part of the game over and over again for endless days - the worst part being the pirate to pirate combat. PvP hasn't been fun since streamers made "two"-tap boarding meta popular - reworking that to something fun would be an actually great pvp update."

PvP is the best part of the game.

PvE feels like "tedious grind that requires you to play the worst part of the game over and over again for endless days" to me.

These are your personal opinions, which you are entitled to, but they provide little to no real feedback other than "I dont like PvP".

And blaming "streamers" on anything is just silly... You can do better than that.

@nex-stargaze i don't think the progression is necessarily bad, but the matchmaking is. Thats really whats doing it. The top players are still being matched with the bottom and its consistent. I know give it time and it should fix itself but that is probably the biggest issue, and hey maybe waiting is where everyone went in the 58 percent. They just want to wait for mmr to sort itself out.

@bronzeinquiztor It depends on you free time available for SoT mostly. I can play between 10 and 16 hours a week, so I will obviously have a different grinding experience to someone that can play twice this amount.

The SBMM has already all the data it needs, a hundred games is sufficient for most of them to have a very low RD. The problem is player population, without an evenly representation of each skill rating (or the second best mostly average skilled players) the best SBMM cannot work. Hopefully it will be fixed in January when they get rid of the stamps but if it doesn't then it won't ever be able to work.

@grog-minto that and people dropping mmr on purpose to vet easy matches. No system will fix that though. The mmr might not be working right either its always a possibility. Looking at you dbd lol

@bronzeinquiztor Oh yeah ofc that will always be an issue. But that isn't what is happening atm.

@lordqulex said in Feedback and Suggestions, By the Numbers:

I can't believe the sheer lack of empathy of anyone whose position is "improve yourself", surely there is something you are not good at but wish you were. I did not think that being inclusive of any and everyone who wants to play to improve the Sea of Thieves would be such a difficult concept. The more players there are the better it is for everyone. But instead, people are falling back atop their little soap box giving the "git gud" pep talk. What a complete and utter lack of compassion and understanding of community building. The game will not survive as long as people with that attitude are catered to.

Every time someone says get good, my response will be "I look forward to the day life kicks you in the @#$% for not being able to participate meaningfully as a mature adult." Soft-skills are no longer optional in the real world, and one day you will be due for quite a rude awakening.

I personally dislike the phrase "git gud" as well, it's a lack of better words to say over how exactly you're meant to improve. What I'm beginning to learn is that improvement really does take some time, some introspection, and some genuine practice. Getting better at a game is something that needs to be earned in the only way viable: the hard way.

Trying to expect a game to have a hand out for you because you don't want to tackle the challenge set by the game itself is where I think the empathy begins to shrivel. I've said before, we have had 7 previous seasons of content that is currently replayable and can be completed at one's pace. This one season is necessary for those that enjoy PvP and want to experience the nitty gritty of the combat, from the naval, to the deck fighting. Yes, you will have to deal with "double gunning bunny hoppers", but eventually, you will learn to outplay them after enough times.

The only reason you're even remotely attached to the grievances you have with this season's content, is because you want to be a Skeleton, or a Ghost. You can't seem to handle the grind set by the game because it is simply too hard for you, and that's okay! You don't have to play it right away, you can earn this passively by doing some PvE and then going for a dive when you feel like you've gathered a ton of supplies and have finished selling your treasure. Not all of the content is meant to be completed in a few sittings like the tougher, more dedicated players have been showing, you're going to be earning this curse in another 3 months from now, no need to rush it, and you can slowly learn to become a little better at the game you think you're enjoying.

I'm only coming at some of you lot with "skill issue" because you lack the patience to self reflect that maybe you could improve in an area or two. Learning the harder part of the game is a reasonable end-game activity to partake in, no point in complaining about it and asking desperately to reduce a grind just because you're casual, because you can become better as a casual and succeed in your goals. Now, you can take my words or leave them where they are, but if you want your funny cosmetics so badly, you best start learning how to earn them.

Also, for the record, there are players that 40+ years old and can play relatively proficiently over the everyday casual, so I would suggest not limiting yourself based on your age.

@lordqulex
Im not one to make excuses, but yeh if you got a legitimate handicap IRL that is impairing yourself to use the mouse & keyboard then yeah, valid.
They are literally 40 year olds and even granpas that stream the PvP side of the game that are pretty damn decent in the PvP aspect, just by putting the hours in.
Like you said, if your not a double gunning sweat, you can excel on what is helming, bilging, timing in battle, shooting cannons. Don't board let your other teammates do that role.

Im 26, so by genetic standards my peak reflexes is gone compared to teens, was dog at bilging on the gally, and in the span of 7 months went from being in one of the worst comp teams, to being in the one of the best currently. Met a lot of players/friends on the way that take me into their crew because of skill level/vibe alone.
There is no magic formula outside of being conscious of what you have to improve on, and actually working on it > You can also ask for advice, VoD reviews etc etc. The info is out there.

If you spent 1k hours on PvE out of your 1.1k total game hours, then yeah don't expect that skill to transition over. Because PvP takes hundreds of hours to know the small details.

AS for PvP I think its rather balanced, the only negative is honestly the server performance that literally can hinder an outcome, teleporting, hitreg, blackscreens etc.

@pteth said in Feedback and Suggestions, By the Numbers:

@lordqulex its simple. they just dont care. if they cared there are many issues they would handle. instead they dont listen and just keep plodding forward to the point that half the remainder of their population only plays because their game is free on gamepass lol. such potential thrown in the trash bin because they are obstinate about their game instead of listening to what the community wants. a classic example is people asking for a pve version requiring them to do NOTHING but set up a server and turn off pvp. but they refuse and instead act like giving us NONPROGRESSION private/custom servers is doing us a favor. what a joke.

i will never understand why a company wouldnt listen when their avg player base according to steam charts is around 11k with a peak in the last 30 days of around 28k when theres 24 MILLION average players on steam playing games every month. why would you ignore the players that WANT to play your game?

Please, just stop, get it in your head already, this game will never become just pve. You keep pushing this dumb agenda on deaf ears. Stop whining about it, take responsibility and learn the game, or don't, and quit the game altogether. Devs do listen, it's just that they, like the majority of players, aren't listening to you. You're not that important to take your voice into account, nor do you have the support of the majority of the community. This game has been around for a while and has become one of the top pirate games, people aren't leaving because of the pvp, it's been there for years, since thee beginning, get over it. You've been warned on multiple situations by the community managers, and they have been nice to link you to videos and documents where devs literally state their main vision for the game.They don't need to do this, it's your job to research a game before you buy it (It's your job to research a game period). Ultimately, there have been countless resources showing gameplay by now. The first and main trailers of the game literally focus and show pvp, you have a bunch of streamers showing pvp gameplay, so if you didn't know what you were getting into, then that's on you. Instead of learning the mechanics of the game you come here to argue a moot point. If you loose in the game, 75% of the time, it's on you, sorry but that's usually how it goes. Stop making excuses and being entitled, the only joke here is your statement about pve only servers. You are not owed anything for being less skilled than others, yes loosing sucks, but that's the way it should feel. You cry it's unjust and it's unfair yet your over here wanting to be rewarded with progression and gold for dealing with significantly less challenge, to the point the game becomes an easy grind, how is that fair to everyone else? You have a rude awakening if you think things should just be handed down to you, I hope one day you learn to be better, not just game wise, but overall, when that day comes, we will be here to provide you with tips, suggestions, and useful recommendations.

I'm sorry that you've had so many negative experiences, the game is a lot more forgiving to those who are patient and learn its hidden intricacies, wee all started the same way as you, and we all got better by playing. I can't tell you how many times I've been trolled by my own crew, called racist slurs, taken advantage of as a new player, spawn camped/ spawn killed, blown up, lied to, etc... but now I also can't tell you the times I've managed to work well with other crews, shared drinks/ songs with an entire server defeating world events together, or the amount of times I've taken down whole crews by myself. It takes time to get there, but that's what ends up happening when one admits defeat/ mistake, and aims to improve and become a better player.

@nex-stargaze

Also, for the record, there are players that 40+ years old and can play relatively proficiently over the everyday casual, so I would suggest not limiting yourself based on your age.

Yes 1000%. Two of my main crewmates are over 40 and over 50 respectively, and the first is great in naval and boarding (they even double gun often). The second is admittedly not amazing at hand-to-hand combat but is an amazing helmsman and cannoneer.

Age can be a detriment, but I don't think it's a large one. Even if your reflexes are bad, you can still be a master of strategy and naval combat. The hourglass PvP is won by cannons, not weapons.

@dragotech123 said in Feedback and Suggestions, By the Numbers:

@nex-stargaze said in Feedback and Suggestions, By the Numbers:

@lordqulex said in Feedback and Suggestions, By the Numbers:

I can't believe the sheer lack of empathy of anyone whose position is "improve yourself", surely there is something you are not good at but wish you were. I did not think that being inclusive of any and everyone who wants to play to improve the Sea of Thieves would be such a difficult concept. The more players there are the better it is for everyone. But instead, people are falling back atop their little soap box giving the "git gud" pep talk. What a complete and utter lack of compassion and understanding of community building. The game will not survive as long as people with that attitude are catered to.

Every time someone says get good, my response will be "I look forward to the day life kicks you in the @#$% for not being able to participate meaningfully as a mature adult." Soft-skills are no longer optional in the real world, and one day you will be due for quite a rude awakening.

I personally dislike the phrase "git gud" as well, it's a lack of better words to say over how exactly you're meant to improve. What I'm beginning to learn is that improvement really does take some time, some introspection, and some genuine practice. Getting better at a game is something that needs to be earned in the only way viable: the hard way.

Trying to expect a game to have a hand out for you because you don't want to tackle the challenge set by the game itself is where I think the empathy begins to shrivel. I've said before, we have had 7 previous seasons of content that is currently replayable and can be completed at one's pace. This one season is necessary for those that enjoy PvP and want to experience the nitty gritty of the combat, from the naval, to the deck fighting. Yes, you will have to deal with "double gunning bunny hoppers", but eventually, you will learn to outplay them after enough times.

The only reason you're even remotely attached to the grievances you have with this season's content, is because you want to be a Skeleton, or a Ghost. You can't seem to handle the grind set by the game because it is simply too hard for you, and that's okay! You don't have to play it right away, you can earn this passively by doing some PvE and then going for a dive when you feel like you've gathered a ton of supplies and have finished selling your treasure. Not all of the content is meant to be completed in a few sittings like the tougher, more dedicated players have been showing, you're going to be earning this curse in another 3 months from now, no need to rush it, and you can slowly learn to become a little better at the game you think you're enjoying.

I'm only coming at some of you lot with "skill issue" because you lack the patience to self reflect that maybe you could improve in an area or two. Learning the harder part of the game is a reasonable end-game activity to partake in, no point in complaining about it and asking desperately to reduce a grind just because you're casual, because you can become better as a casual and succeed in your goals. Now, you can take my words or leave them where they are, but if you want your funny cosmetics so badly, you best start learning how to earn them.

Also, for the record, there are players that 40+ years old and can play relatively proficiently over the everyday casual, so I would suggest not limiting yourself based on your age.

I agree with what you said here. And I want to take that into consideration. The only thing that worries me is that in the future the gamemode will be empty and queue times would be extremely long. I hope the mode is not abandoned in the future before any of us can reach our goals.

This has been my biggest concern as well. Will there still be an active player base in the future to accomplish this grind? I see all of these posts about how players shouldn't expect instant gratification. I think it's more of a FOMO situation than anything else. Before anyone comments... "Hey, Rare can fix this mode and bring back the player base". Let me point out that Rare could have improved arena, but we all saw how that played out. People have been asking for hitreg fixes for years and that still hasn't been fixed. Based on that track record, what makes you think they're going to maintain this mode to keep a steady player base? Even with the proposed matchmaking solutions on the horizon, I don't see it fixing the core issue of retention. Rare is going to move on and focus on next season's content. We're just going to see participation numbers continue to dwindle and that's how the cookie crumbles. Merry Christmas by the way!!! Hope you all are having a great day!