Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal

While I completely agree with this post, they developers put in the commendations for each faction with rewards players for various tasks such as having completed a certain number of voyages for each faction. That being said, the amount of reputation rewarded for these comendations is laughable considering the amount of time it takes to complete said number of voyages. Steps need to be taken to reduce the grind. While I can appreciate being a pirate legend isn't somthing the casual SoT player is going to achieve it almost seems like the relentless grind this game requires was purposefully installed to buy the developers more time to add additional content....

@veristepes

And where are your facts refuting it? You admitted earlier you are not a programmer.

1. Item instances exist. We know this because of items in the game. You can have multiple instances of castaway chests... in unique positions on your boat, so there is unique data with a chest.
2. The developer knows at the time of digging up a chest if its associated with a voyage. We know this because when you dig up a chest it produces a chest and completes a voyage target.
3. Voyages are tracked with multiple targets.

Those things exist and are already demonstrated in the game. If you're trying to argue against those you are wrong. Based on that information alone its pretty easy to determine everything in the game is already built, taking the next step of associating a chest with a voyage is trivial. Adding data to an instance of a quest, or instance of an object only requires a new entry on an instance of something. But the tracking of items in game and voyage systems are clearly there.

And the one major issue that you would run into is data migration. For instance, imagine Skyrim if it wanted to associate a generated item with a quest. What happens if you continue playing at a point where you already have that item, and the developer has no way to know where that item in your inventory came from. The context of that item is lost later. But the state of chests isn't saved so migration is a non-issue. Each time you start the game you have to pick up a new voyage, you get new chests, each of those chests could easily be associated with the current quest your on in some way.

Managing data is fundamental to all programming. It doesn't matter if it's a video game. Instances of objects/data are the bases of object-oriented design. We can abstract information out of observation. The details about the implementation might be obscure. But since your not a programmer you wouldn't understand this. How they move forward with making the association matters a lot more though. What are they actually going to do with it? What can they do with it? What happens if someone else turns in a quest chest? Do they want to show that information to the user? Tracking the chests are the easy part.

And another thing... there is no way to know that they aren't already associated. You're basing your opinion based on user level information. It's impossible to determine whether or not the backend already has that association. So how are you using no facts, and no experience to determine they aren't? I'm saying they basically are, there is enough observable mechanics to take a small step to associate two data types. The developer knows when the chest is generated if it's a quest chest. So quest chests effectively exist.

@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak Firstly, could I ask that you don't nit pick my post into 10 quotes or whatever? Our posts are getting quite long I'm sure we can restrict it to a smaller volume and stay on track of the discussion.

I'm just breaking them down and addressing them point by point - that isn't what nitpicking means.

You are not listening. I mean to take your first couple of paragraphs, I never said and do not believe you don't have to deliver loot.... where the hell did I say that?

If you get 10% for digging up the chest or killing the skeletons, that is 10% you got without having to deliver the loot - you progress without having to turn in that loot. That is the byproduct of your suggestion, so yes... that is exactly what you are saying.

Exactly! So Pvp is a far less efficient way to get faction exp anyway, again, different issue. Plus it's irrelevant - if a bonus was implemented which would also support this thread, it would not compromise PvP rewards at all.

I don't follow. It seems like you are saying that so long as they implement something else, then this suggestion would be fine. But, that's why you have to take PvP into consideration - there is no guarantee that some other bonus will be implemented.

It would be very simple to implement this without compromising a PvPers reward.

So, explain how this suggestion works with regard to PvP. Currently, what I'm reading is that, based on what you are suggesting (10/90), that the loot is worth 10% less on the ship than it was on the island. The reputation seems tied to the loot, right? 10% to start and the other 90% on delivery. So, if that loot is stolen once, it is has lost 10% of it's value - that, again, by definition, compromises a PvP'ers reward... it makes it less than what they currently get for stealing loot - which is a fundamental aspect of this game. So, now, a PvPer who has stolen the loot - which is worth less than it would be under the current system, then has that loot stolen from them. They get zero reputation, then? Despite engaging in a core aspect of the game and investing time and effort, they are left out because they couldn't deliver? You keep saying this isn't an issue because the devs could, possibly, introduce some other system that will give a reward for PvP'ers, but there is no guarantee that such a system will be put in place. So, the merit of this suggested system must be weighed with regard to how it will impact PvP'ers in absence of another bonus system.

And diminishes tension depends on QUANTITY, how do you not see that?

No. How much the tension is diminished depends on quantity. Giving any reward will diminish the tension. And do you seriously think 10% is going to satisfy? It's going to prevent @TouchDown1504 from exploiting the Red Sea? I seriously doubt that.

'Thank goodness there are ways to prevent that happening' Don't act like it will never happen, because it will. To clarify on the purpose of this thread, it's not so much storm/kraken it's PvP. People have mentioned disconnections too but as far as I'm concerned that's bad luck, and a minor issue.. PvP loss is the main theme in the thread..
However, the suggestions in this thread if implemented would function across ANY form of loss, because you would have gained a little progression from solving that riddle, or killing the skeleton captain etc.

First, perhaps the people who are making this suggestion need to get their stories straight. @TouchDown1504 said this before: "Go read post #548. This is the exact reason I blow off your arguments. You will see this argument is not about PvP..." And, in his summary of the reason behind this suggestion... in post 631 - in what he claims is the "easiest way to put it," he never mentions PvP once. You say PvP is the main theme in the thread, he says it isn't the main theme in the thread. Which is it? Can you begin to see why I might be suspicious about the stated reasons for this suggestion? They're all over the place. I mean, I agree with you, I believe this is really not about storms or krakens - it's about loss from PvP. But that loss (or the potential for it) is fundamental to the game.

I have already addressed bugs and disconnects - you don't redesign a core aspect of the game around them, you fix those issues.

I don't believe you can say 'you get stuff stolen all the time' but never come away from a short play session with NOTHING, that doesn't add up. If you get stuff stolen you automatically come away with nothing. Unless you manage to keep 1 chest or something ridiculous but if you get beaten in a fight you are going to have all of your stuff stolen..

No, you're going to have all of the stuff you haven't delivered yet stolen. I plan mid-voyage deliveries to outposts as part of my voyage route. I rarely travel with all the loot from an entire voyage (unless the entire voyage is a single chest - but that's not going to take my entire play session to get one chest and deliver it.) It is perfectly possible to finish a short play session having gained something but still have had loot stolen.

To quote an article you mention later, "We've deliberately said that we don't want to have safe zones – that's why we give you a spyglass – that's why we put the right number of outposts around the world so you've got the choice."

What Rare said is that they wanted you to experience lows, but not CRIPPLING lows. I don't recall where they stated this, it may have been in one of their update vlogs on youtube... anyhow at the moment the losses and lows can feel like crippling lows.... it's too extreme, you can easily get people to experience a low whilst still feeling like they've gained SOMETHING.

I've already addressed this. It's from a Windows Central article that @TouchDown1504 has cited ad nauseum, but he's taking it out of context and twisting it - don't you do that, too. Here's the exact quote:

Can I see masts there? Do I go there? Is there gonna be people there? All that paranoia is what leads to the drama, that "high high." To have that "high high" you've got to have the "low low." One of the things we've strived to do early on strikes the right balance of "loss."

Some of the multiplayer survival games we were looking at previously – such as DayZ and Rust – they had that drama, but the lows were so cripplingly low, you'd play for hours and hours and might lose absolutely everything.

"Absolutely everything." In those games, if you die you go back to the same place a player who just bought the game is... square one, absolute zero. That is the "cripplingly low" low they are referring to. What the devs consider to be a "cripplingly low low" for this game would be to return to 0 reputation, 0 gold, 0 items - like DayZ or Rust. The balance they struck was that, in this game, you may die, sink, and have all the your stuff currently on your ship stolen, but you will always retain everything you have already earned - you will keep the reputation, gold, and cosmetic items you have already earned. That is what they were talking about - they were not saying players should always gain something on a voyage... they want the potential for, not just lows, but "low lows", so let's not build a strawman.

I am not saying strategy wouldn't minimise the loss! I've rarely lost loot, but what I am saying is it would not harm the game in any way, shape or form to implement some sort of system where players still gain SOMETHING for their time.

I've already explained the negative impact of this suggestion. Also, I've explained how it is directly counter to how the devs want to deal with potential for loss:

There's a reason there's no fast travel, there's a reason you have to sail everywhere. It's because a ship isn't just going to come out of nowhere unless you've let it come out of nowhere. You've not paid attention, an enemy ship has literally just snuck up behind you because you've left your lights on at night. That's the kind of thing we'd love players to strategize over.

Now, my basically reiterating this point has led to @TouchDown1504 calling me "elitist." But, those are the devs words, not mine.

Since the game has become more stable for me and isn't crashing every 20 minutes, every single loss of loot that I have experienced has been a direct result of a choice I made - it was my fault - a flaw or misstep in my strategy... not the fault of the game design. That's the point. This game is all about choices and strategy. Success or failure depends primarily on the choices you make based on how you play the game - that includes people, like me, who play in shorter sessions. This entire problem can be alleviated via choices and strategy. But, of course, saying that - reiterating what the devs have said - in this thread seems to make one an "elitist."

@touchdown1504 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

The bottom line on your copping out is, you don't have the conviction of your argument. You are obviously an intelligent individual, which means you realize, as well as everyone else that reads this, your argument simply is not the popular one.

Again with the "popularity," as if that means something. You've already said popularity doesn't make a suggestion the correct one, so...

It is not well constructed, it is not well informed, it comes from the appearance of an elitist point of view...

No, you are trying to make it seem ill-constructed and ill-informed by engaging in fallacies - strawmen, ad hominems, etc...

Take the Poker analogy. I refer to a particular example situation in poker as an analogy and you claim it's ridiculous because not every aspect of poker is like this game. Which is a fallacy:

X is false for A. X is false for B. X must, therefore, be false for C. Wrong.

When someone says, "Trying to engage in an intellectually honest debate with some people is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic" - even if A: "some people" is not a ship and B: moving a deck chair is not engaging in debate, the notion that C: both actions are futile... can still be true... because analogies.

Likewise, in Poker, you can choose to go all in with your chips... much like you can choose to carry all the loot for your short play session at one time on your ship. What you shouldn't do in either situation is remove the pot (read: loot) from the table (read: playing area) when it looks like you're going to lose. That's the analogy.

Now, your intent in going to the Red Sea is, by your own admission, to deny PvP'ers the potential rewards for their time and investment... because you might lose yours. So, you can claim that "well, they can still get it." But that's irrelevant. They would be sinking because the game is basically saying, "Get back in the playing area." We both know this. So, you are trying to take your loot out of play... like taking your chips out of the pot in Poker. You made the choice to go all in, pal.... that's on you. You choose to risk everything from that play session, and lose, well, then... you lose.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak is like to chime in here real quick

1. if the xp is rewarded on voyage completion then there is no way a PvP player would ever get that xp in the first place so they would lose nothing.

Currently, it is rewarded based on whoever delivers, so... if this is implemented and XP is rewarded on Voyage Complete, they lose the potential to ever progress via PvP.

2. this is a game and games are meant to be fun. Regardless of reason, disconnections, stolen loot, troll throwing loot overboard, etc... losing all progress on death especially when it could have been over an hr of work is not fun and is a horrible game mechanic for this type of game.

Except that you don't "lose all progress on death." You keep all the progress you've already earned.

This isn’t dark souls, the punishment for death shouldn’t be a reset button.

And it isn't a reset button now. I've died many times, had loot stolen from me many times. I died a couple of days ago. I'm at 29/23/32. How could I, then, be at that level if death is a reset button?

This is designed as a casual fun pirate adventure that some people take way to seriously.

Where did you hear that this game was designed to be a "casual, fun pirate adventure?" Why would the devs talk about achieving the "high highs" of paranoia and the "low lows" of loss if this was a "casual, fun pirate adventure?"

Feel free to give me a short list of bullet points on all negitives you feel implementing this will have on the game.

Read the post you responded to. It may not be in "bullet point" form, but it's there... and in this reply to you.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

Where did you hear that this game was designed to be a "casual, fun pirate adventure?" Why would the devs talk about achieving the "high highs" of paranoia and the "low lows" of loss if this was a "casual, fun pirate adventure?"

Lol I mean have you actually played the game? If you think this is some hardcore mlg PvP pirate game then I guess there really is no point in debating. A majority of the games progress comes from doing voyages. PvP grants little to no reward in the grand scheme of things it’s mostly for the fun with loot as a cherry on top.

If, by playing the game, we see that this game is designed to be a casual, fun, pirate adventure, then why this thread with the suggestion to make it less “punishing” for casual fun players?

“The game is designed to be a casual, fun pirate adventure - please, devs, change the game design to make it fun for casual players!” That is a statement that contradicts itself. Makes zero sense.

@GraiIs part of a chest’s value is reputation.

@xxbrytexx said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

So I have passed by this thread due to the whiny nature of it (stop complaining about being attacked it's sad). But I can get behind separating reputation from gold. The system is being abused to farm rep, and separating the 2 would stop that.

I do think that if the 2 are separated a new faction needs to be added that is directly tied to PvP.

If you’re referring to players joining crews at the end of a voyage simply to get rep - in instances where this doesn’t happen by mere coincidence, the devs celebrated the player who got to Pirate Legend by doing this. Don’t expect them to change it for that reason.

Game is perfct the way it is, the only thing you should get xp for that uou dont is fighting The regulars that interrupt youre missions. Other then that everything should also be worth more since the items you buy cost way to much. Besides why wouldnt we just keep the chests we find instead of selling them. We already had to pay for the maps, and its not like they get better at higher levels.

@touchdown1504 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak Good Lord man! You sure are passionate about keeping the rewards system as is. Surely there are people that support you in this? A thread my friend, a counter thread is what you need. Lets see some conviction behind that argument.

Goading me to do something unnecessary simply to attempt to illustrate the popularity of this suggestion won’t work. As you have conceded, popularity is not the measure of an idea.

"Low, Low"...."Cripplingly Low". So, you are interpreting the developers intentions now?You are also defining for the rest of us what a "low, low" and a "cripplingly low" is?

No. I’m quoting the devs in context. The devs have defined what “low low” and “crippling my low” is... because words.

This is typical of an elitist tough guy.

Ad hominems are unnecessary and the sign of a weak position.

@entspeak do you believe the devs want people logging out unhappy with the game experience?

Do they want people to enjoy the experience of paranoia and the potential for “low lows”? Yes. That’s why they designed the game the way it is. Can they control how someone plays this open world game and the choices they make - even if those choices result in a player not enjoying the game? No. An open world game can’t be designed to make all choices successful.

As mentioned a hundred or more times by now, you are here just to argue. As evidenced by your post nit picking. Your line by line arguing. I get it, you are bored at work, so instead of doing your job, you are trying to rip apart posts (So you know, if I have to scroll to read your post, I ain't reading it).

You don’t know me. I don’t post at work (unless I’m on the pot - and those responses are short), because I have no time. When I’m at work it’s for 9 to 10 hours and it’s wall-to-wall working lunch kind of work. So, don’t presume to know or insult my personal and professional life.

So, I have a last question for you...I have asked before, you never answer.

@entspeak if you logged in right now, and suddenly you were awarded reputation on the "VC" screen, would you then jump back on these forums and complain about it?

Whether or not a bad idea would benefit me as well doesn’t make it a good idea. I’m able to make that distinction and think about the game overall.

You are passionate @entspeak about your position on this. That is respectable.

Says the guy making personal attacks.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

Where did you hear that this game was designed to be a "casual, fun pirate adventure?" Why would the devs talk about achieving the "high highs" of paranoia and the "low lows" of loss if this was a "casual, fun pirate adventure?"

Lol I mean have you actually played the game? If you think this is some hardcore mlg PvP pirate game then I guess there really is no point in debating. A majority of the games progress comes from doing voyages. PvP grants little to no reward in the grand scheme of things it’s mostly for the fun with loot as a cherry on top.

If, by playing the game, we see that this game is designed to be a casual, fun, pirate adventure, then why this thread with the suggestion to make it less “punishing” for casual fun players?

“The game is designed to be a casual, fun pirate adventure - please, devs, change the game design to make it fun for casual players!” That is a statement that contradicts itself. Makes zero sense.

It’s not about making it fun it’s about making a reward system that makes sense for all types of players. Right now the system is very punishing to casuals or players who can only play a few hours a week who get their loot stolen. This game is very grindy and these players who lose hours of work over and over with nothing to show will eventually stop playing.

Maybe you don’t care but I prefer everyone have an enjoyable time playing how they want regardless if they are casual or competitive.

What if they didn’t change loot values at all and instead just gave a massive xp boost at the end of a voyage regardless of the loot found. This system has no negative consequences on pvp at all. Literally nothing changes from a PvP perspective. Are you against that?

Wait, wait, wait... so, this suggestion is now not about making the game fun for casual players - it’s about making it enjoyable for casual players?! The argument throughout this thread has been that “it’s not fun” to log off with nothing to show for a session. Or, the incorrect and more extreme, “it’s not fun” to log off and lose “everything” - which is not what happens. Aren’t you just using enjoyable as a synonym for fun?