Perhaps a small bit of xp for a completed voyage, but it is kinda the point. It’s meant to be a “risk for reward” type game. The death penalty they planned on adding before the community bashed it was also a good way to keep people from going after you after a certain amount of times.
Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal
@enpixelate I like the loot idea. It is different and new. I really like the game and I enjoy the race to sell loot. If you get xp from everything you do you will advance regardless if you turn in any loot. Plus it is not personal level it is faction levels. They won't give you credit unless they get what they want. Gold or souls.
@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
@lotrmith said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
If it took you two hours to get four chests and two skulls then I at least understand where you're coming from, because if I were that bad at the game then every PvP encounter would be a total loss.
Fortunately not every player is that bad.
Seriously? That is your answer? I plucked a figure out of the air, whatever the time, it's significant. Not everyone has all their life to spend on a game. And yes, not everyone who plays this will be good. This change will make the game more accessible to EVERYONE, both hardcore players, or good players, and casuals/kids (quite a few people play this with their families too). The game was marketed towards casuals and kids 12+ too. If that is seriously your answer then lets stop this pointless discussion now, you're clearly not mature enough.
The game is perfectly accessible to everyone at the moment. It offers no vertical progression and the horizontal progression is so slow and tedious it's really only there to provide the nudge towards wanting to do quests in the first place, much less turn in the loot at all. That's the whole point: Rep barely moves and gold is mostly meaningless, but the game itself is still fun. You can, and should, be having fun whether you're able to cash in loot or not. Some people play and don't care about the loot at all... they want to roleplay, or strictly pvp, or whatever. Or, they're out sailing and lose their stuff and take it with a grain of salt, because they still enjoyed playing the game.
Pretty much every arcade game ever in existence follows this model, along with a fair share of modern AAA titles, such as Sea of Thieves.
If you are casual, the loot matters even less, because you're basically trying to build a sandcastle one grain at a time.
If you want a game that has an ending, or some sort of meaningful, accessible goal that is tracked and to which you can make meaningful progress towards at even a casual pace, then Sea of Thieves is not for you.
@TouchDown1504 Please refrain from swearing, vulgar language, and name calling on our forums, as these are violations of our Forum rules. Your post has been edited accordingly.
@freeshot60 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
Completely agree :) People are discussing different quantities of progression reward. That's why I don't want too much progression up front personally I feel it would remove all/most of the risk... BUT it is perfectly feasible to add a bit of progression whilst retaining the risk element to the game.
@titanvanguard14 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
They can literally keep that element to it, and if you put time into the game why shouldn't you get progression? We are not suggesting you get a ridiculous amount, just SOMETHING. Yes you will get advancement, but it will be a far smaller amount than you get if you successfully hand in the loot, thus it will not make a difference. (I am aware that some people want 100% exp on voyage completed, but the quantity is also being debated as well. Personally I am against this idea as it will remove too much risk BUT I am for the idea of getting something for your time when completing other tasks!)Yes, it is faction levels, that's fine.. if you kill captain skeletons you get exp towards curse, if you are doing a gold hoarders quest you get exp for completing the riddles, or digging up the chest (i.e. finding the correct location) etc.. the progression gained would go to the relevant faction. If you find loot in shipwrecks etc you don't get bonus progression ofc.
@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
@blam320 If you want PL then why wouldn't you do voyages? You CAN do other things along side, shipwrecks, PvP, etc but voyaging is the most efficient way... this idea won't change that so it's irrelevant..
The devs have made it clear the point of the game isn't to grind to get pirate legend asap, but to actually enjoy the time spent getting there. That's why rep gain was nerfed again, that's also why post-legend content was put on the backburner; people want more things to do to reach PL than just grind voyages.
Why would a Gold Hoarder give you rep for a treasure he never received? Wouldn't you lose rep for taking their map and keeping the treasure for yourself? At least from their point of view.
If I gave my roomate $10 to pick me up some chicken nuggets and he never came back with chicken nuggets, he looses standing with me.
@blam320 Fine, so they can increase the total rep required or something. The primary reason of this thread isn't to reduce the grind (although it has the potential to be a by product. The primary purpose of this suggestion is to give players a feeling of progression for completing additional tasks, to reduce the negativity and frustration surrounding the loss of loot. This could be implemented without reducing the grind too. (For instance, if bonuses were added, also slightly increase the total rep needed for 50. Grind would be the same, but the benefit would be the player is rewarded with progression for doing the earlier components of a voyage, not purely for the transporting of the loot.)
Ah, I didn't realise that to be fair - my next comment was going to be post-legend content but it makes sense if they're not going to bother, or at least wait until more people get there..
@nullvaluepoint said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
Why would a Gold Hoarder give you rep for a treasure he never received? Wouldn't you lose rep for taking their map and keeping the treasure for yourself? At least from their point of view.
If I gave my roomate $10 to pick me up some chicken nuggets and he never came back with chicken nuggets, he looses standing with me.
No one is keeping the treasure for them self, it is very unlikely that any loot WON'T be handed in. The people who hand it in would still get their reward, but the people who put in the time and elbow grease to solve the riddle dig up the loot etc will be rewarded for their portion of the journey. To be quite frank it makes no difference what the NPCs 'think' from their perspective. Would they not be suspicious that a different face turned up with what they had asked for? Someone who hadn't purchased the map from them in the first place...
It doesn't matter how realistic the game is. Some how some magic gods know that you have sailed X distance and gives you a commendation for it... Lets just say it's this X that awards you the progression early too. Heck, why would an NPC even give you exp at all? No such thing as exp IRL. Because it's a game...
And before you say 'well because it's rep not exp', rep is just a glorified term for exp. It does not function as reputation, if it did you would be able to lose it, you would gain it by killing the kraken and you would gain it when killing a tough pirate. You would also automatically hear of people who had a high reputation, and potentially that reputation would be associated with a good reason, or being infamous, none of this is the case. Reputation is purely progression/exp that is it, and it is far healthier for games to reward players for the time they put into the game and it would greatly improve the general mood of people in this game... The challenge and risk of defending your own loot would still exist, just you would be rewarded for successfully solving all stages of your riddle, or killing all 4 skeleton captains for the soul voyage etc.
@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
@blam320 Fine, so they can increase the total rep required or something. The primary reason of this thread isn't to reduce the grind (although it has the potential to be a by product. The primary purpose of this suggestion is to give players a feeling of progression for completing additional tasks, to reduce the negativity and frustration surrounding the loss of loot. This could be implemented without reducing the grind too. (For instance, if bonuses were added, also slightly increase the total rep needed for 50. Grind would be the same, but the benefit would be the player is rewarded with progression for doing the earlier components of a voyage, not purely for the transporting of the loot.)
Ah, I didn't realise that to be fair - my next comment was going to be post-legend content but it makes sense if they're not going to bother, or at least wait until more people get there..
I can understand a rep bonus for following through with a voyage; right now the meta is just pick up a voyage, complete it halfway then cancel, or just keep cancelling until you hit one that's worth it.
As for post-legend content, it's not even about waiting for more people to achieve it. Most feedback has been regarding how barebones the world is, and how activity diversity needs to be improved, since there currently isn't much and no content is ever restricted to legends or beginners only.
The more I have read the thoughts, opinions and ideas in this insanely long thread the more I have pondered my own thoughts and ideas.
I am just spit ballin' here, so bear with me... The game was designed to be anything but traditional in the sense of how a game is played. In that sense they have done a fine job, that is, it is different (not saying a fine game). Not exactly re-inventing the wheel, more like rearranging the spokes. What is being done here with the rewards is not unique, it is simply rearranged. The current system works, there is no denying that. Works does not mean it is a good system. Windows 10 works too, but I miss 7. Anyone can earn their experience and/or gold, and no one will always log out with zero (unless they are doing it intentionally). The design is nothing more than simply attaching the rewards to the physical object. You are carrying the rewards in your inventory (or the ship inventory in this case) From a game design perspective this makes perfect sense. Especially if the game is something of a Battle Royale style, or survival style game. To a point there is a survival aspect to SoT. The collection of resources, the avoidance of other players and environmental effects (storms, Kraken, etc.). All of this on the surface lines up as expected. I will not ever deny that. Nor will I deny that I enjoy the game, although much less than I did, I have already gone back to other things and rarely boot up SoT.
The issue, or I should say "my" issue, is the implementation of the systems in the game. To be honest I wonder if reputation should exist at all? Perhaps it should have just been gold. You choose to purchase goodies, or promotions. Silly example, but the point is, all though the system is simple, it is also quite complex. The design was obviously going for player interaction, and as the Developers created the game and made their fun whimsical and silly videos, they were playing among their known friends and coworkers. They were in a bubble not exposed to the reality of truly open world, anything goes, toxic behavior. Same goes for the Alpha testing. It was laid back for the most part. Beta, another story entirely. So, it stands to reason that the developers honestly believed people would behave like rational human beings having a goofy and silly fun time. They did not account for the "hardcore" gamers that simply need a new CoD Battle Royale mode. Because if they had, I would bet my bottom dollar that a system similar to what is being discussed now would have already been in place. If the developers themselves had felt the disappointment of logging in a zero state, the feeling of time completely wasted, they would have already had a system in place to compensate. I believe they will...taking a look at these forums, Reddit, the latest reviews, YouTube, Twitch, and a number of other social media outlets that cover games...SoT is already yesterday's news. Its not because the game sucks, because it doesn't. it has its moments. It is because I can't think of any other game I have EVER played that actually made me feel like I just wasted an hour of my life. I am not the only one...go read on some of those sites I just mentioned. With that said...I am shelving SoT for awhile. Better things to play that actually feel rewarding when I hit the quit to desktop button.
@blam320 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
@blam320 Fine, so they can increase the total rep required or something. The primary reason of this thread isn't to reduce the grind (although it has the potential to be a by product. The primary purpose of this suggestion is to give players a feeling of progression for completing additional tasks, to reduce the negativity and frustration surrounding the loss of loot. This could be implemented without reducing the grind too. (For instance, if bonuses were added, also slightly increase the total rep needed for 50. Grind would be the same, but the benefit would be the player is rewarded with progression for doing the earlier components of a voyage, not purely for the transporting of the loot.)
Ah, I didn't realise that to be fair - my next comment was going to be post-legend content but it makes sense if they're not going to bother, or at least wait until more people get there..
I can understand a rep bonus for following through with a voyage; right now the meta is just pick up a voyage, complete it halfway then cancel, or just keep cancelling until you hit one that's worth it.
Yeah exactly, I'm not here advocating OPs thing about split the loot. I want incentive to do the content we have, instead of no one finishing voyages or doing fun riddles. I think the change would make people think twice before dumping riddles, and thus will be out on the islands more, which in turn makes PvP more rewarding as well as there's a larger window to find the loot heavy ships. Perception is a huge factor in someone's motivation to play. Even if they doubled the rep you need, if I feel like I'm accomplishing more, I'm more jazzed to login. It's all in the feedback. That's why the cannon hitting a ship feels so good, that victory trill plays. That's why the stupid Mysterious stranger p****s me off, he gives you literally nothing but lip service till 50, but acts like he has rewards
@graiis said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
@blam320 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
@blam320 Fine, so they can increase the total rep required or something. The primary reason of this thread isn't to reduce the grind (although it has the potential to be a by product. The primary purpose of this suggestion is to give players a feeling of progression for completing additional tasks, to reduce the negativity and frustration surrounding the loss of loot. This could be implemented without reducing the grind too. (For instance, if bonuses were added, also slightly increase the total rep needed for 50. Grind would be the same, but the benefit would be the player is rewarded with progression for doing the earlier components of a voyage, not purely for the transporting of the loot.)
Ah, I didn't realise that to be fair - my next comment was going to be post-legend content but it makes sense if they're not going to bother, or at least wait until more people get there..
I can understand a rep bonus for following through with a voyage; right now the meta is just pick up a voyage, complete it halfway then cancel, or just keep cancelling until you hit one that's worth it.
Yeah exactly, I'm not here advocating OPs thing about split the loot. I want incentive to do the content we have, instead of no one finishing voyages or doing fun riddles. I think the change would make people think twice before dumping riddles, and thus will be out on the islands more, which in turn makes PvP more rewarding as well as there's a larger window to find the loot heavy ships. Perception is a huge factor in someone's motivation to play. Even if they doubled the rep you need, if I feel like I'm accomplishing more, I'm more jazzed to login. It's all in the feedback. That's why the cannon hitting a ship feels so good, that victory trill plays. That's why the stupid Mysterious stranger p****s me off, he gives you literally nothing but lip service till 50, but acts like he has rewards
I would personally also change riddle quests to reward multiple chests; right now the time investment needed to complete one, just to get a single seafarer's chest is the big turn-off.
@graiis said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
@blam320 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
if I feel like I'm accomplishing more, I'm more jazzed to login.
Exactly! That is what some people just don't get. At one point, many pages ago @entspeak even said it doesn't matter how I feel. Really? then why play games?
@terron29 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
@lars-von-laser I played with a rare developer yesterday and mentioned this exact thing which he agreed with and said he would pass it up. I also mentioned the loot bug where if left in water too long you sometimes cant pick it up. He said he would send that up too.
Well hopefully they take this idea into consideration :)
@frank3nst31n-69 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
If i could get just rp from diggiging up or killing captains the server would lag from the amount of treasure aboard my ship wouldnt even need to outpost just fire 1-3 people in the general direction to refill on voyages
Personally I don’t like this idea. I believe it should be on voyage completion. Also the treasure should still have a it’s current value. This idea is just bonus xp
@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
@entspeak said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
As I have said many times, the game already rewards PvE over PvP, so yes, essentially screw it.
The game rewards PvP and PvE equally in both of the factions being discussed here. The game sees zero difference between a chest/skull taken via PvP and one taken via PvE. While, one path may be more difficult, that is about skill, choice, and strategy - which can be learned and evolve through experience - and not about game design. In terms of reward, it is balanced. If a player turns in a Captain's Chest, they get the same reward for their time and effort whether they got it via PvP or PvE. Your suggestion would add a PvE bonus on top of this. That is, essentially, a penalty for getting loot via PvP - which we already acknowledge is more difficult to do than PvE. That is a penalty for choosing to play an open world game in the manner the devs have offered as a legitimate way to progress - albeit a potentially more challenging one. That's a negative. Penalty = bad.
The only faction that gives a greater reward for PvE is the Merchant faction... and your suggestion would make that an even bigger difference in reward.
This thread is not here to worry about making PvP profitable... if you are concerned about that, make a new thread.
I'm not saying that PvP should become more profitable. I'm saying that both ways of progression should be equal in terms of reward with regard to the two factions that don't require delivery to a particular outpost at a particular time. If you turn in a Captain's Chest or Villainous Skull, the reward should be the same regardless of how you got it. That is the vision for the game, it should remain that way. There's no need to give a PvE bonus - as you have been saying, it's already more profitable.
Fine, they can have the 100% loot and 100% gold, all they will be doing is handing in, they still make a nice sum, without profiting off of other peoples time and work.
But, profiting off other people's time is part of the vision for the game! It's called Sea of Thieves and the devs have explicitly stated that none of the quest rewards are truly yours until you turn it in. That is a core part of the game!
And yes, it is safe to assume that PvP players do it largely out of fun, even if not totally. It is a less efficient way to obtain progression, and like you said yourself it is more difficult to make it profitable. So what else must they be getting for it? Either fun, or perhaps they enjoy the challenge? I am of course describing someone who hunts for PvP not someone who is an opportunist PvE player who has noticed a chance to attack a player.
Open world game. The devs clearly don't want to actively dictate how the game is played. You can choose to progress - via PvE or PvP... or not. You can simply sail around and never progress... they don't care. But, should you choose to progress, it makes no difference which route you choose... they aren't going to dictate which you should choose. Just because one is more difficult, doesn't mean someone can't improve in doing it over time and become a dread pirate of the seas. It's about the journey. And, with the right strategy and a good crew, I can see how ship hunting could be incredibly profitable.
We get 100% of their loot progression BUT those victims have their 25% or whatever bonus, so they still obtained some progression.
Why? To quote the devs here: "...a ship isn't just going to come out of nowhere unless you've let it come out of nowhere. You've not paid attention, an enemy ship has literally just snuck up behind you because you've left your lights on at night. That's the kind of thing we'd love players to strategize over."
So, if a PvE player screws up and loses their loot... they get this bonus for their time and effort prior to the encounter. A PvP player screws up and fails to get loot, but they get a big fat goose-egg for their time and effort. If a ship hunter has spent hours on the seas looking for ships in particular spots because those spots are indicators that the the target likely has loot. They strategize about how to take out that ship. How best to approach, how to get in a "cross the T" position to sink them and minimize damage to themselves. That's not just as much a part of progressing as strategizing how to kill a skeleton, solve a riddle, or find an X on a map?
You've asked for a negative impact on the PvP element of the game... well, that's it. The problem is you are actively choosing to ignore it, because you assume (and we all know what that does) that people aren't playing as ship hunters - despite the fact that it is an open world game where the choice to do that clearly exists and, if a player chooses it, and gains more experience in it, they could be profitable.
Your suggestion is a disincentive to PvP. Why risk wasting time and resources engaging another ship when there is already a chance you may not gain anything even if you succeed and you gain a 25% bonus by simply sticking to PvE voyages? Your suggestion is a PvE bonus. That seriously throws things out of whack.
PvP is a means of progression in the game - the devs intentionally set it up that way. It should be treated equally when it comes to the rewards.
They engage in a fallacy by claiming they are being reset to zero and that the devs don’t want that - when that, clearly isn’t happening. No, they are upset because they lose sometimes when they don’t have a lot of time to play the game... not all the time, but sometimes and they feel they should win in some way shape or form every time because it would make them feel better. No.
They are reset to 0, yes. Not their whole account, not their current faction rating, but that gaming session, they are set to 0 if they lose their loot, yes.
First, you can't lose what you don't have yet. They aren't losing progression, they are losing loot. Just like if, in another game, I have a bonus item, but die before I get to a save station, I lose that bonus item. There are tons of games that work this way. If you don't make it to a checkpoint or a save station, you lose all the progress you gained and are reset back to the previous checkpoint.
But the point I was making in the section you quote was that they are engaging in a fallacy. They are building a strawman. The devs have never said that they don't want people to end a one hour play session having gained nothing. What the devs mean by losing "absolutely everything" is being truly reset to zero - like what happens in DayZ and Rust... being forced to respawn and start over in the same place as someone who just installed the game... 0 reputation, 0 gold, 0 items. Despite what these people have repeatedly tried to say, the devs aren't talking about what they are. So, it is a fallacy to try to use those quotes from the devs in support of the notion that gaining nothing in a one hour session is something the devs never intended.
... if I have spent a significant amount of time completing some tasks, why should I need to walk away with nothing?
Because you didn't make it to the save station with the stuff... that's why. You didn't clear the checkpoint.
The game can still hold true to it's principle of defending loot in the form of physical objects WHILE relieving this feeling of loss and negativity.
But, they invested all of the quest rewards in physical because they want this feeling of loss.
"All that paranoia is what leads to the drama, that "high high." To have that "high high" you've got to have the "low low." One of the things we've strived to do early on strikes the right balance of "loss.""
It needs to be, not just a low, but a low low. It has to hurt.
Of course players will still experience it a bit, that's fine, but being set completely to 0? A bit extreme.
You can't claim to have received something you haven't earned yet. So, how can you be reset when there is nothing to reset? Progression is not reset to zero, because you haven't earned any progression, yet. And, what you have earned in by turning in loot... you keep. So, no... you are not reset to 0. DayZ is a bit extreme. Life is Feudal is a bit extreme... heck, more than a bit. This is not extreme. This game works the same way as every other game that has a checkpoint or save station system. Play Alien Isolation and die... you go back to the last save station you were at.
@skyewauker said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
@entspeak Uh what?
We have to defend the reasoning? This thread is NOTHING but defending the reasoning for this change. How can you make this comment with a straight face? Its page after page of defending it.
I'm never said that people aren't trying to defend the suggestion. I'm saying that fallacies are not a valid defense and if you're going to make a suggestion, you need to be able to defend it.
My cousin quit playing over this very thing. We played 2-3 hours, had a streak of bad luck with galleons (even hopped server twice). We lost probably 80% of our progress. I didn't mind is as much... well actually I did.
"...a ship isn't just going to come out of nowhere unless you've let it come out of nowhere. You've not paid attention, an enemy ship has literally just snuck up behind you because you've left your lights on at night..." - the devs.
A good bit of the reason is that the grind is just too =/. They need to adjust it some. Im 39/41/37 and its just too much. The real grind hasn't even started yet.
That's a different issue. The devs seem to be more interested in the slow game rather than focusing so much on progressing. There is fun to be had whether you progress or not.
@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
@lotrmith Right. I've read it, again what is your point? The game actively discourages PvP - when a player has loot they are not going to want to fight are they?
As others have said, you are confusing game design with player choice. By migrating people to ensure that they are definitely going to see another crew, the game design encourages crew-crew interaction. Of course, players may choose not to act on that encouragement depending on their situation, but the game design puts it out there. It's an open world game. You can choose to engage what they put in front of you... or not, it's your choice.
Like, with regard to making choices that can mitigate potential losses in a short play session: "that's why we put the right number of outposts around the world so you've got the choice." The game design puts outposts in front of you and gives you a choice. You want to take a moment and drop off some portion of your loot at one of these lovely outposts spread fairly evenly around the map - ensure some gains in reputation? Would you like to save your progress up to this point? No? Your choice - it's an open world game, after all. If you gain 0 in a play session because you had ALL your loot from that session stolen, odds are it was your choice that led to that. Choice and strategy. The underlying problem that prompted this suggestion (I lose all my loot from my one, two, or three hour play session) can be solved via gameplay... the game design doesn't need to change in order to remedy it.
@entspeak just keep skipping all the good arguments that don't have anything to do with saving people from losing loot and everything with encouraging all players to do more in the game. I'm definitely not ignoring people who want to exclusively PvP. If more people are out running around on an island trying to finish that one last riddle to end their voyage for that bonus xp instead of just dropping cause it'll probably be a castaway anyway, then they probably have more treasure onboard and you have more opportunities to cross your T for more loot.
@blam320 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
I would personally also change riddle quests to reward multiple chests; right now the time investment needed to complete one, just to get a single seafarer's chest is the big turn-off.
True, ESPECIALLY when you unlock higher GH levels, I mean come on... the riddles tend to become more time consuming but for equal reward what?? You should be guaranteed a better chest...@GraiIs Very well said, it's about a players experience and how they feel about the game and introducing a bit more positivity to it. It's about getting people a bit more excited to play... I will admit there have been a few times where I have wanted to play but decided to play something else on the basis that I don't really want to risk spending my evening to get 0. It isn't likely, I turn in voyages a lot more than I've been sunk but it HAS happened and you obviously can't predict it. The potential for that to happen is a bit of a downer for me. I love the game but yea....
@TouchDown1504 An interesting post, I read something on another thread too which said something similar - the game itself could easily work among a group of friends, or people who are a bit more like-minded, but if you throw in an ACTUAL gaming community, it simply is not like that and will result in chaos. This is why although I'm looking forward to the first proper update, Hungering Deeps in May, I am also worried about it. They said they are going to introduce a new AI threat, awesome! But they want players to work together to defeat it... I really REALLY hope they won't just add in a threat, expect pirates to work together to kill it and then let them fight over the loot. That is only going to increase the negativity and result in chaos... I can literally imagine all of the threads popping up now... 'Three of us defeated X boss then two of them back stabbed me and split the rewards between them' etc etc.. There has GOT to be a system in place so that people get a baseline reward! I don't care if we all get an equal reward, then fight over the REMAINDER, that's fine! And if you lose, it doesn't hurt as much, you got something! Sometimes you will get that extra stuff, sometimes you won't... that's cool. But to have the potential to spend a significant amount of time and get nothing.. especially when the game is advertised to people 12+.. I can only imagine how hard some kids must be finding it.
I think there's another important point to make. The game was marketed as something which could be enjoyed a bit more casually and socially too. The PvP was clearly advertised, and I enjoy it and it should never be removed BUT this is not dark souls! It's not like it has a reputation for being a hard game or was marketed as something very challenging or unrewarding...! This game was advertised towards casual players who wanted to experience an awesome pirate adventure, yet sometimes I feel like it simply isn't set up properly for casuals.
As I have said many times in this thread, it is easy to keep that feeling of risk, paranoia and fighting over loot, i.e. the 'thieves' element of the game WHILE ALSO introducing a bit more positivity to EVERYONE in the form of 'baseline' rewards, if you want to call it that, in other words progression for completing certain things (such as defeating the new AI threat) and then extra loot to fight over, or to sail to the outpost and protect.
@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
@frank3nst31n-69 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
If i could get just rp from diggiging up or killing captains the server would lag from the amount of treasure aboard my ship wouldnt even need to outpost just fire 1-3 people in the general direction to refill on voyages
Personally I don’t like this idea. I believe it should be on voyage completion. Also the treasure should still have a it’s current value. This idea is just bonus xp
To address both of your points. We are not suggesting people don't need to hand in at an outpost, that is a question of quantity not a reason against this idea. If the progression isn't ridiculously excessive then no, players won't be able to stay out at sea + just spam chests. (or well they could in theory, but the progression reward would not be sufficient to make it a more efficient route, heck it would be far more inefficient to do it like that!)
Otherwise I 100% agree, Rare should NEVER introduce 100% progression on voyage complete, that is ridiculous because of the exact reason you stated. Heck, if people weren't into the gold and just wanted to grind they would NEVER NEED TO PORT! Like you say they can just fire someone to an outpost, oh 3 more quests, lets collect the chests! When you get too many chests, throw them over board... whatever. Rinse and repeat. This change should never remove the need to visit an outpost otherwise it is defeating the current basis of the game.
@I-Am-Lost-77 I know where some people stand on the exact rewards I can't remember where you stand (and forgive me but this is a very long thread it's much easier to ask you rather than going back page after page after page trying to find a place where you stated it..) Are you saying that when the voyage complete appears, THAT is when you get your bonus progression? Then you get the current progression reward like normal when you hand in at an outpost? Because I really like the sound of that. My idea was to get the exp when you actually do the act, kill skeletons, or dig up the chest, or solve each riddle, but it would probably be much easier to implement like you are suggesting and get it on voyage complete.
@entspeak
I will however reply to your first point as I just completely disagree. If someone focuses on PvP, and someone else on PvE, the game does NOT reward them equally. PvP is not just more difficult, it is less efficient, so how can the game reward it equally? It doesn't. You don't know who has a chest, where ships are, what faction the chest rewards, how much they have... plus it is harder to kill players than it is to kill skeletons on a voyage... just no, they don't. PvP and PvE is not balanced, but then don't forget the game is supposed to be PvPvE anyway, if you are doing PvE, see a ship, and decide to fight, and win, that is a far more efficient way of doing it. However the vast majority of people are fightened to do that because they don't want to lose their time investment in the game. This suggestion would also relieve that and make people more ballsy, thus more willing to take on a hard fight as if they lose it all, at least they have their basic reward for completing the voyage.PvP is not an efficient way to progress, it already has penalties! The game is NOT designed for people to focus purely on PvP and gain the same level of progression as people focusing purely on voyages. Players who focus more on PvE do get more profit, I completely agree, it is more efficient, that is NOT what this thread is trying to discuss. I don't care about quantity of reward. No one here does.
What we care about is the time investment we get into the game and the massive low people get if they are sunk and lose their loot. Quite simply, the game goes from something being fun, to not fun and making you reluctant to log back on for a while.. it's not the same as simply losing a game, it just feels awful, and there is nothing wrong with being beaten and having loot stolen but for all the work and time you did put in completing the other tasks you have nothing to show for it.
It is easy to fix this while still keeping the core aspect of the game. I am not interested in what people who only PvP experience, because everyone should be encouraged to participate in PvPvE, and yes, I am also for PvE enjoying PvP more (which this suggestion would encourage!) If people ONLY PvP that is THEIR choice but they will earn less. That is their choice if they choose to ignore PvE and voyaging altogether. Both ways of progression would not be equal but they aren't currently anyway, yes the actual physical reward values are the same, but the efficiency just isn't, in short, PvP is already far less rewarding. It is not the concern of this thread either. If you keep arguing for the PvP I am not going to address that point because it is not relevant and has already been dealt with.
Yes, and people can still be rewarded for defeating other people, but at the SAME time the original people can be rewarded for their time investment too. They CAN BOTH WORK TOGETHER. How can you not see that? It can still be Sea of thieves!
Ships catch up to you, or they ambush you, or they catch you unawares (which is arguably our own fault, however the successful crew can still get their reward whilst also rewarding us for our time if we have completed most of the voyage). Ok, I see what you mean with PvP strategising, but I don't see why people would waste their time it is already less efficient... that's the decision they've made 'lets choose the more difficult and less efficient route to getting progression'. If this change was implemented it would make focusing on PvP less efficient again, but it's not like we're turning a no-problem into a problem. This is already an issue and if you think PvP and PvE are equal you are sorely mistaken. Plus, as has been said many times, by giving people some progression earlier people are more likely to take risks, to stay out longer, or to engage in that PvP fight etc.. so it will be healthy for PvP more than unhealthy.
I just don't have the time to keep repeating myself. And your posts are ridiculous. Every time I reply to you, you take each and every sentence I write and comment on it, your posts are ridiculously large. If you choose to respond that's fine but please keep your next response a bit more concise, otherwise I will not waste my time reading it, there is no need for it -.- Even this post is a bit longer than I wanted to make it.. There is no need to create a wall of text in every post you make.
@ttargetpractice said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
I'm not going to read a thousand posts, but I don't see why we can't keep the current reward system and also gain some points on voyage completion based upon the purchased faction level of the player who is receiving the xp. I hope it's that.
Correct, that is essentially what we are trying to achieve, and like you said, BOTH are perfectly achievable. The core aspect of the game is having valuable cargo which you need to defend, which people can steal. I don't want to remove that! But at the same time it will do nothing negative and increase peoples moods if they are also rewarded for their portion of the voyage, like you say, receiving some progression on 'voyage complete'. It doesn't need to be an excessive amount, but something decent for their time. So if the loot is worth 100 points, I think 10 on voyage complete is too low, but it definitely shouldn't go above 50... somewhere in between would be nice.
@angrycoconut16 Loot is random and the points you get from it are random. The amount you get for voyage complete could be based upon whatever faction level you currently are, and not the level of the person who bought the mission. They could even add a small randomization to that voyage reward, so each voyage gives between 1/20 and 1/15 of a level, maybe a bit less at higher levels and more at lower levels. It would help lessen the grindy feel of the grind if you were guaranteed a fraction of a level for doing a voyage. A lot of people wouldn't mind grinding so much if they knew that 20 or 30 complete voyages guaranteed a level. It sounds like a lot but at least it's a concrete number.
@ttargetpractice said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
@angrycoconut16 Loot is random and the points you get from it are random. The amount you get for voyage complete could be based upon whatever faction level you currently are, and not the level of the person who bought the mission. They could even add a small randomization to that voyage reward, so each voyage gives between 1/20 and 1/15 of a level, maybe a bit less at higher levels and more at lower levels. It would help lessen the grindy feel of the grind if you were guaranteed a fraction of a level for doing a voyage. A lot of people wouldn't mind grinding so much if they knew that 20 or 30 complete voyages guaranteed a level. It sounds like a lot but at least it's a concrete number.
That's a good idea. Another solution would be to award people a % bonus progression based on the progression they would get for the exact loot types which were found, so if you found 3 seafarers you get less, if you find two marauders and a captains you get more. Yea I completely agree with what you're saying too.
@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
@entspeak
I will however reply to your first point as I just completely disagree. If someone focuses on PvP, and someone else on PvE, the game does NOT reward them equally. PvP is not just more difficult, it is less efficient, so how can the game reward it equally? It doesn't.Please explain what game mechanic identifies the efficiency with which a player gathered a single chest? Does the game give more reputation and gold for a single chest gained more efficiently? Or do players turn in more chests by making more efficient choices - by choosing to play more efficiently? It is the latter.
This is what you are failing to grasp. Due to the open world nature of the game and the desire of the devs to allow you to choose - within the limits of the game design - how you play the game... how you choose to progress, the game doesn’t care how efficient you were, the game only cares that you turned in a chest/skull, and gives the same amount of reputation and gold to whoever brings it in regardless of how it was gained or how efficently it was gained.
You could spend 15 minutes or half an hour on a riddle; you could goof around and shoot snakes for 20 minutes before you decide to solve the riddle; you could sail from one end of the map to the other, visiting each island in the world individually before heading to the island to solve that riddle... and, no matter how many times you got sunk or killed while goofing off before you finally solved the riddle and turned in the chest, you’d get the same reward that you would if you quickly went to the island, solved the riddle and went directly to the outpost.
When it comes to GH and OoS quest rewards, the game itself, by design, doesn’t care about efficiency.
While the game is designed to allow for a player to choose their adventure, the game and player choice are not the same thing.
People are rewarded for their time and investment... the thing is, “time and investment” in this game includes, by design, getting to a checkpoint in order to keep that reward and not be set back to the last time you reached a checkpoint. This is the way numerous games work.
@AngryCoconut16 I should also mention that, with experience, it is possible to solve the same riddle more efficiently than another player... but you still get the same reward. It is possible to kill skeletons more quickly and efficiently than another crew... same reward. As an example, I now know Crook’s Hollow like the back of my hand. If I get a riddle there, I can solve it very efficiently - heading directly to each spot. I know where the two crabs are, the beetle at the crossing of ways, the sun, the watcher over the sea... pretty much all of it. This means I am more efficient at solving a riddle for that island than someone who just started the game... and, yet, we get the same reward for success. The game gives two hoots about how efficiently you play it.
I was reading the argument that PvP wouldn't be getting rewarded as much as PVE if there was a fraction for digging up the chest or killing the skeleton. My thought was that a ship hunter is not risking as much as a PVEer. If you're a smart ship hunter you are empty of loot. So you have nothing to lose as there is no death penalty. Whereas the PVE player you just sank is on his 4th island all the while risking someone sinking his ship that does have loot on it. Now you have the loot from 4 islands for your one stop and can go turn in. You didn't buy a mission, you don't risk much if you are hunting a ship. So why complain about a fraction of the rep.
@rp-slayer-2 You stand to lose the same thing the PvE player does... time invested in the game. Killing players, killing skeletons... the difference, according to @AngryCoconut16, is that it is harder to successfully take out a crew than it is to take out skeletons. And, even if you manage to surprise a solo sloop on an island, the player may not be on the ship and the loot may not be on the ship... and then you have to hunt them down on the island and find where they stashed the loot (without the aid of a treasure map). It can take much longer and be more difficult to succeed at getting chest via PvP than PvE... and yet, currently, the reward is the same when it comes to turning it in.
I’m not saying that PvP should be rewarded more... I’m saying PvE doesn’t need a bonus. I’m saying that the problem of ending a session having never turned in a single piece of loot is not a game design problem... it is a player choice problem.
@entspeak No game mechanic identifies efficiency, you don't need a game mechanic to do that, have you ever tried searching for a ship to sink? It is not always easy, sure sometimes you will get lucky but... Whereas PvE players know where they are heading, know they are guaranteed to find loot, know exactly which faction they are training, PvP don't know any of this, and their efforts may be for nothing if the ship they decide to chase actually ends up having no loot... Efficiency does not depend solely on quantity. Yes you are correct with your statement, and the efficiency choice is to start a voyage, not go out and try to find a random ship to sink.
You are turning this into something which is far more complex than it actually is. I completely understand the need for physical loot, and I know the game doesn't care how efficient someone is. I don't even understand why you would write that? What I am saying is that if two players equally want to progress, no goofing around at all, focusing on their tasks, the PvE player is always going to have more efficient progress and rewards than the PvP player.
I understand what the game currently IS, but just because it is a certain way doesn't mean that is the best way or a way which everyone enjoys. That is why we give feedback, for change to happen. The primary objective of getting loot to an outpost can remain, all we are suggesting is rewarding players for a few other tasks they have completed, to relieve some of the negativity associated with PvP in the game, probably encourage more PvP, and make the game more attractive to all kinds of players...
As for your next post, I really don't think you understand what efficiency is... I know it's 100% the same value, but if you are able to obtain that value far quicker, and thus go again and obtain that value again, you are going to be doing it more efficiently than somebody who takes twice as long to obtain that same value. I really don't understand the point you are trying to make, what you are saying seems irrelevant. The game doesn't care no, but it's just a basic fact.. if you are more experienced like you say, you're going to be more efficient. What I am saying however is that if you have a PvE and PvP player of a similar skill level in what they each do, the PvE method is still far more efficient.
@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
@I-Am-Lost-77 I know where some people stand on the exact rewards I can't remember where you stand (and forgive me but this is a very long thread it's much easier to ask you rather than going back page after page after page trying to find a place where you stated it..) Are you saying that when the voyage complete appears, THAT is when you get your bonus progression? Then you get the current progression reward like normal when you hand in at an outpost? Because I really like the sound of that. My idea was to get the exp when you actually do the act, kill skeletons, or dig up the chest, or solve each riddle, but it would probably be much easier to implement like you are suggesting and get it on voyage complete.
Correct I believe only on voyage completion for several reasons.
- it would encourage players to stay at sea longer instead of always returning to outposts. (Increasing chance of PvP gains in the process )
- encourages players to do all the entire voyage and reward players for doing longer quests with more islands further supporting point 1. (This is very important to get players to reduce the quest recycling as well as skipping a riddle quest for GH or a 1 captain island for OoS)
- I feel like getting xp for everything will severely distract from the turning in treasure aspect. Awarding on voyage completion however would be like an auto saves and returning to an outpost is more like a manual save.
- and yes it would be way easier to implement
@entspeak You can not consistently blame losing loot on player choice. Even if a player makes all of the right choices they may be bested by a better or more experienced PvP player. Don't forget also, this isn't just about PvP (although being attacked is sort of the main issue), this change would also be welcomed if you were attacked by the Kraken and sunk for instance. It is just a more positive change if players are rewarded for the time they put into the game.
@RP-Slayer-2 I agree. Obviously the two playstyles should also be intertwined but at the moment they're not particularly intertwined, as a PvE player with loot is going to be far more cautious about fighting as all of their time investment in the form of their loot, is what they stand to lose. You are right, a PvP player has less at risk, much less.
@entspeak Yes PvP takes more time BUT you can't compare someone who chooses a less efficient method (it is obvious it is likely to take more time.., plus if people are focusing purely on PvP as stated before I think there is a massive fun and challenge element they also take from it, and they are primarily interested in that over their progression. This is partly speculative but I have seen several PvPers on the forum say that the main reason they do it is for fun, they enjoy the combat in this game) over someone who is doing something more efficient but stands to lose it all..
The difference is the PvP player KNOWS (or should know, it's obvious...) that there is a large luck element in what they do. They have no clue where ships are, when they find one they have no clue if they have loot, or how much, it could be one measly sea farers... If they want to spend their time like that, that is up to them.. a PvE player on the other hand is actively trying to use the most efficient way of gaining progression which is currently present in the game, but stands to lose EVERYTHING if they get attacked. (And yes, some of that is down to player choice, but we are only human, that is still no excuse for the severe loss which is experienced currently by players who are caught out, make a mistake, make the wrong choice, whatever you want to call it and it is part of the reason players are dropping like flies...).
I will say again, it is perfectly feasible to keep the current system in place, of risk vs reward (most of an individuals gain can still be contained within the chest) whilst simultaneously rewarding players for tasks which they have successfully completed.
@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
Correct I believe only on voyage completion for several reasons.
- it would encourage players to stay at sea longer instead of always returning to outposts. (Increasing chance of PvP gains in the process )
- encourages players to do all the entire voyage and reward players for doing longer quests with more islands further supporting point 1. (This is very important to get players to reduce the quest recycling as well as skipping a riddle quest for GH or a 1 captain island for OoS)
3)I feel like getting xp for everything will severely distract from the turning in treasure aspect. Awarding on voyage completion however would be like an auto saves and returning to an outpost is more like a manual save. - and yes it would be way easier to implement
I strongly agree with point 2, that makes more sense too. A bonus 'ok congratulations, you've obtained your loot, here is some reward, however get it to an outpost for your main reward' kind of thing.
Just one thing I don't understand, how will it do anything to effect people who recycle quests to get lots of captains, or the golden animals.... etc The longer the quest, the more initial bonus you'd get (and the more you should get at the end.. assuming you have been properly rewarded for a harder or more time consuming quest but I know this can be inconsistent too), so people will still be looking for the longer quests, no?
@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
Just one thing I don't understand, how will it do anything to effect people who recycle quests to get lots of captains, or the golden animals.... etc The longer the quest, the more initial bonus you'd get (and the more you should get at the end.. assuming you have been properly rewarded for a harder or more time consuming quest but I know this can be inconsistent too), so people will still be looking for the longer quests, no?
From what I see people recycle quest based on loot per island. So if you get 1 skull captain on 3 islands you will recycle that as opposed to 1 island with 3 captains. Longer and therefore harder quests are usually done partway only hitting the important big loot islands then canceling afterwards. This promotes a bad system where completing a voyage is not as important or effective as doing big cash islands. I want to encourage people to do the whole voyage to make them stay at sea longer and reward them for taking the extra risk and putting in the extra effort. It doesn’t stop voyage canceling/recycling it just encourages voyage completion as it should.
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