Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@lotrmith already answered that

Your answer equates to buyer's remorse and that you want the devs to reshape the game to your specifications rather than theirs.

Good luck.

@graiis said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

Yes it would provide better rewards for pvpers. If I go to an island with 4 chests on it and then I have an island right next to me with a riddle to finish my voyage, right now I'm going to cancel my voyage and go to an Outpost. With the change, I'd go to the riddle island to finish my voyage, and my boat full of treasure will be out on the Sea ready for robbery for another 15 minutes, and I'll have 1 more chest on my ship. I've had 2 or 3 extra riddles I've ditched before, now that's 30-45 more minutes.

May I ask why you chose not to go to the riddle island first? Or, why you didn't choose to go to an outpost, drop off the chests (ensuring that you keep that progress), and then head back to the island to do the riddle?

The number of chests on your ship during PvP is irrelevant when it comes to this suggestion. No matter how many chests you have on board, at the current suggested level of 50% PvE bonus, those chests are now worth 1.5x more in reputation should you, the defender, turn them in. And, the kicker is... you are guaranteed 1/3 of their value in reputation - even if you lose. If someone steals it from you, they get the loot value in rep and gold without that bonus. And if someone steals it from them they are left with nothing for their time invested - thieves can be stolen from, too.

Noone who does PvP is going to feel forced into doing pve just because pve gives a bit of rep when you finish stuff, if they felt a super drive to get rewards they wouldn't be going hard in PvP anyway, that's where the efficiency argument was coming in, it's easy to tell you probably won't get more rewards for PvP as it works currently, as many have said.

Efficiency is about choice and skill - how you approach a situation and your skill at dealing with that situation dictates the efficiency. If you can learn to determine who has loot and who doesn't, don't go chasing people who likely don't have loot, have a good strategy, and have a team that works well together to pull it off, you can be efficient. So, the argument that PvP is inherently less efficient is specious at best.

And, given all the talk about human nature and the drive to progress that has occurred in this thread, can you honestly say that, if one has an opportunity to make - chest for chest/skull for skull - 1.5x more doing PvE (1/3 of which is guaranteed on voyage completion), that you will waste time taking someone on for 2/3 of that... and have no guarantee to keep any of that progression for your time invested if someone takes it from you?

I think it should probably get its own faction, but that would make people who PvP get PvP faction rewards plus what they steal??!!! Oh no!!! Now who will ever pve??

@touchdown1504 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:
@graiis I picked this out of your post to make a point:

"Noone who does PvP is going to feel forced into doing pve just because pve gives a bit of rep when you finish stuff"

In many PvP vs. PvE threads I have seen people say they should not be "forced" into PvE game play. But it is ok to be forced into PvP? This brings us full circle to what I meant very early on in this thread about "risk vs. reward" balancing. Anyhow, try to convince others that being forced into PvE is just as okay as being forced into PvP...the justifications for being forced into PvP but not forced into PvE make for a fantastic read.

I'm going to address both of these at the same time. In this game, regardless of how you play, there will always be a potential to be caught in PvP or PvE. That's not being forced to do it, it's being forced to react to the world around you - one filled with AI and players. However, currently, you are not required to actively seek out either of those things in order to progress in the game. That's what's brilliant about this game. As a PvE player, you may have entire sessions where you don't fight another player. As a PvP player, you may have entire sessions where you are only engaging in PvP. But, you can choose how you progress in the game.

If you create a PvP faction the game will require you to actively seek out PvP in order to progress in the game. This is different from having players choose one over the other because of an imbalance in reward (chest for chest/skull for skull). The game will actually require a PvE player to seek out PvP in order to progress. As I said, the game currently allows you the freedom to play how you like - you just have to also allow for the rest of the world - including PvP players who may want to kill you. A PvP faction kills that freedom.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak pretty sure me @TouchDown1504 and @AngryCoconut16 all are in favor of PvP rewards. hell @AngryCoconut16 made a post about PvP faction and I plan to do the same at some point. We’re not against PvP we are simply here to address a problem with a good solution.

sigh. I never said any of you were not in favor of PvP rewards or against PvP.

@i-am-lost-77 - Had you failed and they killed you sailed up to your boat and sunk it before you respawn you would have ending you play session with nothing for all the risk you took.

@urihamrayne -well not really, because before coming to dagger tooth I had cashed in some chests before

@I-Am-Lost-77 - Well I’m glad you gave an example of how mitigating your loss allows you to take more risk. thank you for proving a point of this thread. cheers mate!

Yes. An example of how to mitigate your loss allowing you to take greater risks... without having to change the game design one iota. If the game is already designed to allow you to mitigate your loss and preserve at least something for your time invested, then why is this suggestion necessary?

@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@urihamrayne said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@i-am-lost-77 "How you failed and they killed you sailed up to your boat and sunk it before you respawn you would have ending you play session with nothing for all the risk you took."

well not really, because before coming to dagger tooth I had cashed in some chests before, I used a checkpoint. l**o

Anyway, you can't know if they were inexperienced, maybe I outplayed them, maybe they made a mistake that I capitalized on? That isn't the point of the anecdote, I just wanted to show you that defending yourself is not the end of the world and can and should be done.

Right. So in other words the only way players can mitigate loss is if they have ALREADY secured some loot and handed it in at an outpost. Wow. Very helpful. So if I log on have a couple of hours to kill, and I am engaged by an enemy, but haven't had a chance to hand in at an outpost, I am forced to make a decision, do I attack with cannons and risk losing everything? Or do I just run which means a better chance of me not walking away with nothing? Hmm. I wonder which option I will take.... I am not saying that outposts can't be used to mitigate, I completely agree, and I hand in as frequently as I can... but I am saying the current system enforces a negative attitude towards the game and has a negative effect on PvP.

Try being a bit more open minded to new ideas and the effects they will have on the game if you are going to participate in the forums rather than being instantly dismissive of everything.

Take your own advice and stop ignoring or dismissing every argument that counters your opinion.

Try making a suggestion that does not lower the comparative value of the individual pieces of treasure on your ship to what they are worth to a thief right now. You can't. Every suggestion you have provides added incentive to PvE without any added incentive to PvP, and thus screws with the meticulously crafted balance of the game.

@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

Right. So in other words the only way players can mitigate loss is if they have ALREADY secured some loot and handed it in at an outpost. Wow. Very helpful. So if I log on have a couple of hours to kill, and I am engaged by an enemy, but haven't had a chance to hand in at an outpost, I am forced to make a decision, do I attack with cannons and risk losing everything? Or do I just run which means a better chance of me not walking away with nothing? Hmm. I wonder which option I will take....

This example raises a lot of questions. You have a couple of hours to play. How long does the fight take? Is the end of the fight the end of your play session? Were you on your first island and it took 1 hour and 45 minutes to get whatever loot was there? That's what I genuinely don't understand... how does this particular scenario happen?

edited to address the first statement, above: Yes... that's what the outposts are for, that's why the devs put in a lot of them and spread them fairly evenly around the map. They are save stations or checkpoints of a sort. All games with save stations and checkpoints work this way - you die, you are reset to where you were the last time you saved.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@lotrmith said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@lotrmith already answered that

Your answer equates to buyer's remorse and that you want the devs to reshape the game to your specifications rather than theirs.

Good luck.

I enjoy the game and want to reshape it for the better. That is why I am on the forums. I don’t need this system to enjoy the game it is just an obvious improvement that will increase the enjoyment for all who play. You @entspeak and @UrihamRayne have argued piece by piece and have all missed the overarching point in that this will increase the enjoyment of all players in every play session.

Except that we gave specific examples of how it won't... nobody has really addressed that. Correction, @AngryCoconut16 said 'screw it'. So, that's been the proposal with the PvP problem created by this suggestion. Other's have simply said it's not really a problem without explaining why.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@lotrmith there is already a system that reduces PvP gains. 1/3 of all voyages are worth 1/10 of their value to pvp all the time. Welcome to the merchant alliance where all your pvp is completely wasted on 10% of the total value of the loot of a PvE player. Now stop with you argument of comparable value it’s flawed.

Got a counter argument to why your up in arms over a 2/3 gain and not a 1/10 gain? I’ll wait

This thread is not and has not ever really been about the Merchant Alliance. The merchant alliance already requires you to go to an outpost in order to reach Voyage Complete because those are not recovery missions that are deliverable anywhere... they are delivery missions. Are you suggesting that this bonus also apply to Merchant Alliance voyages?!

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak no if you read it it was disproving the “comparable gains” nonsense you guys keep spewing out about how unfair it is for PvP.

But we were only making that argument within the context of this suggestion. Under this suggestion you will also still not get a bonus if you lose your Merchant delivery to PvP.

You feel that reward disparity should be extended to non-Merchant voyages?

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak you said pvp players will get less which is false they get the exact same amounted before.

sigh. Less than. If you are at a job and make the same as the guy next to you... then he gets a raise, you are now making less than him - even though you are making the exact same amount you were before. Understand?

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak the argument was that it discourages PvP because of the “comparable gain” it would give to PvE and I’m saying this is already in the game. Just to help disprove your whole “discourage PvP” argument which is nonsense Bc PvP is done mostlyfor fun not the loot!

Not an answer to the question. You feel this reward disparity should be extended to non-Merchant voyages?

@i-am-lost-77 Still not an answer to the question. You feel this reward disparity should be extended to non-Merchant voyages?

@i-am-lost-77 I'm not asking about could. Are you saying it should? It's not irrelevant, because that's what this suggestion does.

@i-am-lost-77 Point to a single post where I said that a PvP player is not getting the same amount he would get right now. I never said it, I never implied it, I never even hinted at it. The question is ridiculous and not the point at all.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak you said pvp players will get less which is false they get the exact same amounted before.

You were saying?

PvE is always more profitable.

Chest for chest/skull for skull, this statement is false.

@i-am-lost-77

Currently, if you turn in a chest or skull regardless of how you got it (PvP or PvE), you receive the same thing in terms of profit.

@angrycoconut16 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@lotrmith said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

Your answer equates to buyer's remorse and that you want the devs to reshape the game to your specifications rather than theirs.

Good luck.

What in the name of hell are you talking about?

This suggestion would not reshape anything! The vast majority of people in this thread want to fit this idea to the devs specifications! One of the most fundamental aspects of the game is this idea of having physical objects to defend, your loot.. the devs WANT the feeling of risk, paranoia and excitement on the open ocean, and I really enjoy that! As do many others!

This suggestion would NOT compromise that. How can you not understand that? Look back at our ideas, there has been debate over quantity but the key aspect most of us want to hold on to is keeping the loot valuable so that it doesn't affect the current aim of the game! This is completely feasible! The only impact this would have is a positive one. If you disagree, then that's fine, but if you are going to continue this discussion then YOU need to state your reasons. What effect would it have on you which is so bad? How would it negatively impact the game? Why are you SO against it? I don't care what your personal opinion are, I want actual facts or reasoned opinions about how this will impact the game in a bad way.
Go.

As for your more recent post, you haven't provided any arguments other than 'oh you can go to an outpost' or 'look at the horizon more', and I've explained why this isn't a valid argument...

And this game is not meticulously crafted. Get that thought out of your head. PvE CURRENTLY has greater incentive than PvP, that's a fact.

Nobody said that PvE and PvP provide equal incentive. Balance does not mean equality. If it did, I would get a set amount of rep and gold every time I sunk your ship regardless of what you had on it.

Keeping the loot exactly as comparatively valuable after your idea as it is now is your challenge. You have yet to come up with such an idea. All ideas thus far mess with the PvPvE balance of the game. Again, not PvPvE equality, but the existing balance.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak I’m not gonna look for the quote that @lotrmith said when I say “you” I mean you @lotrmith and @UrihamRayne collectively. Seriously you act like a grammar n**i of posts

If you're addressing arguments you aught to know who you're speaking to and whose arguments you are debating. Better to look a grammar n**i than look a fool.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@i-am-lost-77 said in Give us our XP for finishing a voyage, not turning in the chest/soul/animal:

@entspeak you said pvp players will get less which is false they get the exact same amounted before.

sigh. Less than. If you are at a job and make the same as the guy next to you... then he gets a raise, you are now making less than him - even though you are making the exact same amount you were before. Understand?

If you are at work someone else gets a raise, you are still making the exact same as before. Your argument is basically that the other guy shouldn’t get a raise because you didn’t? It’s just selfish really

There is an entire socio-economic political debate over the effects of raising minimum wage in a free market economy and the practical effect it has on everyone above minimum wage that doesn't get a raise.

In short, yes. When some people get raises and others don't, the comparative value of the labor and wages of those who didn't get a raise goes down.